What is with these dang Americans and switching the order of verb phrases? For example:
quote:Unemployment and disorganization still are hallmarks of many towns and cities in Iraq.
Are still, dammit! This is something like the third time I've come across a reversal just today, and it's not as though I've had time to read a lot. Is this supposed to look distinguished, or intellectual, or something? Like bloody Yoda it looks.
Posted by JonHecht (Member # 9712) on :
What's wrong with switching the order?
Edit: Not only does the reversal not impede communication, it actually serves a useful function. It puts emphasis on the 'still'.
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
Why not just say "remain"?
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by JonHecht: With switching the order what's wrong?
English work that way does not.
Posted by JonHecht (Member # 9712) on :
It doesn't? That's kind of surprising, since I understood both the original sentence and what you just said without any difficulty.
Posted by Aros (Member # 4873) on :
I guess when used as an adverb, "still" always comes before the verb, except when it is modifying "to be". "Are" is a form of "to be", so you are correct.
I don't know. The confusion is simple, if still always comes before the verb with every other word. <Ex: The Train still hasn't arrived.>
Hmm...this only makes sense from a proscritivist standpoint. Real world language use is decriptivist in use of colloquialism. And it does serve a function to reverse the word order (to add emphasis), even if it isn't technically correct.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by JonHecht: It doesn't? That's kind of surprising, since I understood both the original sentence and what you just said without any difficulty.
And you also understand, but that not make correct.
Posted by Aros (Member # 4873) on :
Yeah, and the proliferation of adding "y" to nouns, in order to make them adjectives (attributed to Joss Whedon) is incorrect too. But it enlivens the language and makes it more colorful. That's the difference between a living (changing through use) and a dead language.
Oh, if the Welsh only had your problems!!!
I say that King of Men gets defenestrated. We can do it in a very actiony manner. Even though we'll probably hear a lot of grumbleage from him.
Posted by JonHecht (Member # 9712) on :
That one I actually take issue with, since it took me a few seconds to realize what you were trying to say. Again, so long as understanding is not impeded, I'm fine.
There are many cases where it is perfectly acceptable for a noun (or pronoun) to be elliptical as long as the meaning is clear; the sentence you chose just happens to be especially weird because "understand" can be used both transitively and intransitively.
Edit: Never mind about 'understand' being both trans and intrans. I thought about it a bit more and realized that it just seems intransitive sometimes because it is so often used elliptically.
Edit2: Interestingly, I looked it up and some dictionaries mark 'understand' as both trans and intrans, but I really think that this is incorrect, as all the examples that are provided just have implicit objects.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by King of Men: What is with these dang Americans and switching the order of verb phrases? For example:
quote:Unemployment and disorganization still are hallmarks of many towns and cities in Iraq.
Are still, dammit! This is something like the third time I've come across a reversal just today, and it's not as though I've had time to read a lot. Is this supposed to look distinguished, or intellectual, or something? Like bloody Yoda it looks.
Putting the adverb before the verb is a weird journalistic tic. Don't ask me why they do it—it's probably based on some faulty idea of what sounds punchier or something. But it produces constructions ranging from mildly awkward to downright awful, such as "Apple Monday announced the new iPhone." Huh? What the heck is Apple Monday? Were they Apple on Monday and some other name on different days of the week?
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
I will feast on the tears of english prescriptivists.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
That doesn't sound like much of a feast. Are tears a good source of protein, carbohydrates, or other nutrients?
Posted by JonHecht (Member # 9712) on :
"Apple Monday announced the new iPhone." The problem is that it should be "Apple, Monday, announced the new iPhone."
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Ugh. Still awful.
Posted by Emreecheek (Member # 12082) on :
Word switching doesn't bother me. It changes the stress.
Those who dislike it are prejudiced against music.
What gets on my nerves is "Everything in the world is not about you." Well, goodness. Surely some things in the world are about me. Like, your sentence. I think what you meant was: "Not everything in the world is about you."
I don't know which is more grammatically sound. But I know which one I understand.
Posted by Darth_Mauve (Member # 4709) on :
They do it because they sound so much wiser we they sound like Yoda.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Do it, they do, because wiser, they sound, when sound like Yoda, they do.
Posted by Graeme (Member # 12543) on :
Adverbs are actually pretty flexible in terms of order. Actually, adverbs are pretty flexible in terms of order. Adverbs are pretty flexible in terms of order, actually.
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy: Ugh. Still awful.
Are you the one with the pedantry blog? Posted by Stone_Wolf_ (Member # 8299) on :
quote:Originally posted by JonHecht: The problem is that it should be "Apple, Monday, announced the new iPhone."
No, it should be "Monday, Apple announced the new iPhone."
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
or!
On Monday, Apple announced the new iPhone.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dan_Frank:
quote:Originally posted by Jon Boy: Ugh. Still awful.
Are you the one with the pedantry blog?
Yup! This does not mean, however, that I am not entitled to have opinions on language.
And anyway, I have facts to back up my opinion. The "[subj] [adv] [verb]" construction is definitely a weird feature of news writing. Notice that almost all of the spoken hits are from TV news:
Also I can speak from experience, not only does Jon Boy know how to write, his spoken English is pleasantly accented. He could command the elements if he spoke loudly enough. Fortunately, he is soft-spoken.
[ August 06, 2012, 11:58 PM: Message edited by: JanitorBlade ]
Posted by Aros (Member # 4873) on :
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
quote:Originally posted by JonHecht: The problem is that it should be "Apple, Monday, announced the new iPhone."
No, it should be "Monday, Apple announced the new iPhone."
Jon's use of an appositive isn't incorrect. Though I'd say that both sentences are not optimal.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)