Quick background info: Two years ago I began having unexplained fainting spells. After three specialists, I was diagnosed last summer with a type of dysautonomia called Neurocardiogenic Syncope. Basically, my autonomic nervous system does a poor job of regulating my heart rate and blood pressure. In general, my heart beats on the slow side and a trigger can quickly send it plummeting. The resulting drop in blood oxygen levels causes me to faint. Thankfully, once I'm on the ground, gravity returns the good blood to my brain and and within minutes my nervous system will begin to stabilize. I can be up and moving again within five minutes.
Six months ago, I began seeing a new dysautonomia specialist and am finally finding a combination of medications and supplements that help limit my most severe symptoms. Unfortunately, it still leaves me with mini-spells. My heart rate and blood pressure won't drop fast enough to put me on the ground, but its occasionally enough to make me dizzy, disoriented, and prone to stuttering. Sitting down for a few minutes and ingesting some fluids is all I need to bounce back. For the most part, I try to avoid known triggers like standing in one spot, sitting and then rushing up, or any unusual stimuli (people talking too fast, flashing lights, extra loud music, etc).
Anyway, for the most part I lead a pretty normal life. My coworkers are all pretty experienced when it comes to my episodes and a full-blown faint is very rare for me these days.
A few days ago, I was flying home for Christmas. Full disclosure, it had been a pretty rough week for me. I work retail and the last minute shoppers had run me ragged. However, I was glad to find the security line was short and made it a point to get a good snack and fluids in me before the flight. Its a quick one-hour flight that I had done twice already since becoming sick so while I wasn't worried, I was taking all the usual precautions.
After sitting at the gate for two hours, we were quickly lined up and sent down to the plane. The narrow hallway and slope of the gangway played with my senses and just before getting on the plane, I began to feel light-headed. I stopped to lean against the wall which quickly attracted the attention of a flight attendant. Even though I was unable to speak without heavy stuttering, they were able to figure out that I needed to sit down and brought me a wheelchair. Within a minute, I was able to explain that I had a chronic fainting condition and was thankful for the help and feeling well enough to stand again.
They insisted that I be cleared by the EMTs before being allowed on the plane. At this point, I was trying to be very patient and understanding. I know my episodes can look scary from the outside and knew that my vitals were already approaching normal. I was assured that EMT clearance was just part of procedure. After a short delay and a broken blood pressure cuff, the EMTs announced that my pulse was 86 and my blood pressure was 120/70, both perfectly normal for a 27 year old woman. I was eager to get on the plane and stop holding things up but when the stewards asked if the EMTs recommended that I go to the hospital, they said that always recommended a trip to the hospital. At this point, I'm starting to get annoyed because I had already made it clear that this was a known medical condition and my body had already properly recovered. After signing a form saying that I was refusing transportation to the hospital, I was ready to get on the plane but was once again refused admittance. They were convinced that I was a liability.
My condition is an annoyance but not life-threatening. I was again explained that I would be perfectly safe sitting on a plane and that I was most likely triggered by the the sudden rush to move after sitting for so long. Headrushes for me are just more extreme than the general public, but again, at no point had I lost consciousness.
During these various exchanges, one worker even remarked that he was surprised that I was allowed to continue driving. Personally, I am incredibly offended when someone questions my medical health choices.
Once they closed the airplane door, I broke down into tears. Christmas is the only time my whole family is together. Its the only time I get to see my dad because he's often working out of the country. Because of my retail job, I was only granted three days to see them and the airlines's promise to put me on the next flight in the morning meant losing 12 hours with my family just two days before Christmas.
I nearly had to throw a fit in order for them to put me up in a hotel room and save me the three hour roundtrip drive home and back again. They refused to even take my luggage off the plane even after I told them I had put my medications in my checked bag so I would have to worry about all of them at security.
Without my sleep aids (chronic use of my main meds reduces melatonin) I only got about 3 hours of sleep before getting back to the airport. I had to make the flight the following morning without any of my medications. When they offered a wheelchair, I took it without arguing because I could barely keep upright. I spent the hour flight ill and permanently attached to my heart monitor.
When I made the return flight today, I was once again saddled with a wheelchair. I hated it but didn't want a single stumble to keep me from getting home. I hate the stares because I look like a fully capable young woman. When the plane landed, I avoided the wheelchair attendant waiting for me in favor of walking. I heard atleast one woman muttering behind me at baggage claim about how I had cheated the system. Maybe I should have tougher skin but I don't like to use accommodations when I don't absolutely need them.
In regards to the initial incident, here's my problem! I can understand that they were just protecting the company, but I have rights as well. I am furious about the way it was repeatedly stated that a clean bill of health from the EMTs was all that was needed to allow me access to my flight, only to be withdrawn later. I am furious that my attempts to explain that this was a chronic condition were ignored. I am furious that a group of strangers were telling me that my body and my health condition was a danger. I am furious that decisions made between my doctor and I regarding my ability to drive, were called into question. I am furious that I was forced to fly under worse conditions because my medication would not be retrieved, all while listening to a group of airline employees say that they were making this decision for my own safety.
I understand that my illness is not a commonly known one. It doesn't have the visibility of diabetes or epilepsy. But it is a disability and treating it differently because its invisible, really bothers me.
I will probably be flying again in May and so my mother and I are already looking into additional paperwork to prevent this from happening again. We'd talked about med-alert bracelets and wallet cards before but had struggled with the most efficient way to state my condition and recommended course of treatment (which is basically, "let me lie down/sit and don't you dare call an ambulance unless I have a gushing head wound.") My brother is diabetic and most people don't see his dog tags and on the rare times he's gotten sick, most don't look for his wallet card. Until now, especially with full-blown drops becoming so uncommon, it really hasn't been something I thought I needed.
We will also be printing out the part of the Disability Act that handles chronic illness and Air Carrier Access. At no point did anyone ask for a medical certificate before refusing me admittance. My dad is also going to work with me in regards to writing up a formal complaint against Southwest Airlines and New Orleans Int Airport.
In the end, I was able to get most of my time together with my family though I lost a few more hours sleeping and recovering from the most uncomfortable flight experience ever. Despite being more angry that I've been in a long time, it didn't ruin my holiday and I couldn't have been more grateful for the time I spent with my parents and brothers even if it'll be a full year before it happens again.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Ugh, that's awful, Shanna:( I can't stand when people...hmmm...dehumanize?...other people, begin to speak of them in ways that their lives and their choices are something that are to be judged. I have almost never encountered anyone doing so who wasn't horribly suited to that sort of posture, and then when you throw in medical issues to boot and have a pack of ignorant laypeople holding court...
Blegh. I very much hope the May flight goes better!
Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
I'm happy that you are already getting ready to protect your rights, and to also better ensure that they know that you are safe and will not go into a seizure or something mid-flight. Have you considered getting one of those USB medical bracelets?
Is it at least easier to get through the airport rigamarole in a wheel chair? If I ever have to (and I mean must) get on a plane at a busy airport I might suffer for the time on my foot.
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
I'm sorry you had to go through that, Shanna. I don't know anything about such things, but would a signed letter on a doctor's letterhead stating that it is safe for you to fly be something to consider carrying with you in addition to the other measures you are working on?
Glad you ultimately had some time to spend with your family, but that is a big chunk to take out of a very short vacation.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
That sucks.
Good luck figuring out methods for preventing future incidents with over-protective airline personnel.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote: I understand that my illness is not a commonly known one. It doesn't have the visibility of diabetes or epilepsy. But it is a disability and treating it differently because its invisible, really bothers me.
Shanna, I feel for you, but I have to say as a former EMT and the son of a disabled person as well, I am quite convinced that the airline staff acted perfectly appropriately in this case. You should travel with a note from your doctor explaining your condition, and you should advise the airline of the condition before flying. The airline is perfectly aware, as you are, that the chances of something going terribly awry in the air are very slight. But they are also aware of what happens to them, their jobs, and their liability for your safety if you fly with them, and if they are not absolutely sure that it is safe to do so.
Having an illness or a disability is not your fault. But what happened, while annoying and inconvenient for you, is an unfortunate consequence of your condition. To expect people to respond, with perfect aplomb, to a person who faints with no warning and claims this as a normal thing for them, as if it is no big deal, is possibly unreasonable. I wasn't there, but i have to say, depending on how things looked, I might very well have refused to allow you on the plane.
As to your rights: full stop, you do not have a right to board the company's plane unless they are comfortable with you doing so. That is an unfortunate fact of your situation. Were this a public school, or public transport, etc, I would be singing a different tune. But it was a private airline -a company which takes great risk of liability in offering its services. And they have a right, according to the terms of service which you agree to when buying the ticket, to change your travel arrangements or refuse boarding if they are not satisfied that you are fit to fly.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Which would be all well and good, perhaps, except I read at least two rather serious movements of the goalposts in that scenario, with respect to what they were telling her would be needed. Much of that story, as I read it, was as much about hope being close to fulfillment only to be snatched away by unpredicted, unwarned decisions or extra hurdles.
Had someone with the nerve to be truthful-"I'm sorry Ms. ______, but before we can allow you to board we are going to need some specific and very compelling medical reassurance," or even the less forthright but still truthful, "I'm sorry Ms. ______, but I'm not clear on precisely what sort of safeguards we'll need, but it is possible we won't be able to permit you to fly with us. I can't say with certainty either way until I learn more."-then I suspect, but no one can be sure, that her sense of outrage and injustice would be less sharp.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
Somehow I knew this was southwest before I got to the end. I have heard similar stories about that god awful carrier.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
Somehow I knew this was southwest before I got to the end. I have heard similar stories about that god awful carrier.
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
What confused me most about the EMTs was their insistence that I should allow myself to be taken to the hospital. I've had a couple of run-ins with EMTs over the last two years (thankfully none since beginning my new medication regiment) and never have I been pressured to go to the hospital. My last major incident was last summer when a large meal dropped my blood pressure and I began to have convulsions. My friend called 911 and atleast three ambulances responded. I was stuttering and shaking like a leaf when they arrived, more terrified than anything, and after repeatedly checking my vitals they offered a ride to the hospital but said it was entirely my choice and advised me that there was practically nothing an ER doctor would be able to do for me after a seizure-like event. They said it would be best to check in with my own doctor (I already had an appointment scheduled for the following week for the test that confirmed the diagnosis.)
So having gone through this and several full-blown faints, I have NEVER had an EMT recommend a trip to the hospital especially with vitals as good as mine had been.
And if they had decided from the beginning to refuse me admittance, they would have had time to atleast retrieve my bags and not leave me stranded without my medication. They were like, "well, you should have put them in your carry-on." Personally, I'd been trying to make my trip through security as easy as possible. My supplements are a huge part of my regiment as well and I order them in ginormous bottles. I figured I'd throw a few in an ziplock bag and keep them with my prescriptions in my checked bag so I wouldn't have to explain the weird unmarked white capsules in my carry-on. Maybe security wouldn't have cared but I ALWAYS get pulled out for special screening and I try not to test my luck. Besides, I was making a one-hour evening flight and I take my meds in the morning. Even if my bag had gotten lost, I could have gone to the pharmacy in the morning for an emergency supply.
As for the airline and passenger rights, while Southwest is a private company they are still regulated in regards to disabilities. According to the Air Carrier Access Act,
quote:Under what circumstances may a carrier determine that there is reasonable doubt that a passenger can complete the flight safely without requiring extraordinary medical assistance during the flight and thus require the passenger to obtain a medical clearance as a condition for providing air transportation? How is “extraordinary medical assistance” defined?
A carrier may determine that there is reasonable doubt that a passenger can complete the flight safely without requiring extraordinary medical assistance during the flight when the passenger’s condition does not appear to be medically stable (e.g., the passenger has apparent significant difficulty in breathing, appears to be in substantial pain, etc.). Extraordinary medical care is care that may require the use of onboard emergency medical equipment (e.g., automated external defibrillator or enhanced emergency medical kit (EEMK)) or voluntary assistance from another medically trained passenger, or a delay/diversion to obtain the medical assistance necessary to stabilize that passenger. Extraordinary medical assistance may also be needed when a passenger is unable to self-administer medication or routine medical care necessary to maintain the stability of his/her condition during a flight (e.g., insulin injection). In instances where the carrier reasonably concludes that extraordinary medical assistance may be necessary, it may require a medical certificate. The carrier is also free to offer the passenger the option of undergoing pre-flight medical clearance.
As I understand that, while it would be helpful to carry extensive documentation, I am not required to show proof of my medical condition unless there is good reason to believe that I would not be able to fly without EXTRAORDINARY assistance. Had I still been stuttering (to the point of being unable to communicate the need for assistance) or unable to walk on my own, then yeah, those would seem like valid reasons to refuse me access to the plane. A dizzy spell would not.
Achilles, you will move quickly through the airport via wheelchair. Both airports offered special shorter security lines for those with medical needs, which I had always thought were just for wheelchairs and very young children, but which I will probably request next time as standing in long lines is my arch-enemy (and why I never buy more items in a store than would allow me to use express checkout.) Wheelchair users also board first. Though personally, I found it incredibly annoying that my wheelchair attendant took possession of my boarding pass at every checkpoint. I felt like a child being wheeled around.
Next time I may utilize the option to use the shorter security line and ask about pre-boarding so I can walk at my own pace without feeling rushed or overwhelmed. I will always prefer walking to standing or sitting as the movement helps keep my blood pressure elevated. Sitting is fine but my doctor always says I'm terrible at taking it slow when I first stand up. He always looks like he wants to bop me on the head with my chart when I go bounding out of my chair at the end of an appointment. I'm still adjusting to the whole "just I feel better doesn't mean I'm cured" mentality.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Which would be all well and good, perhaps, except I read at least two rather serious movements of the goalposts in that scenario, with respect to what they were telling her would be needed. Much of that story, as I read it, was as much about hope being close to fulfillment only to be snatched away by unpredicted, unwarned decisions or extra hurdles.
I understand that. But such is the way of things with ineffectual low-level people, particularly if you take the drastic step of allowing them to make actual decisions. I am not surprised at the confusion, but the result is, while not assured, certainly not surprising from where I'm sitting.
quote: Had someone with the nerve to be truthful-"I'm sorry Ms. ______, but before we can allow you to board we are going to need some specific and very compelling medical reassurance," or even the less forthright but still truthful, "I'm sorry Ms. ______, but I'm not clear on precisely what sort of safeguards we'll need, but it is possible we won't be able to permit you to fly with us. I can't say with certainty either way until I learn more."-then I suspect, but no one can be sure, that her sense of outrage and injustice would be less sharp.
Agreed. The approach was the problem. The actual decision was, in my opinion, justified.
quote: As I understand that, while it would be helpful to carry extensive documentation, I am not required to show proof of my medical condition unless there is good reason to believe that I would not be able to fly without EXTRAORDINARY assistance. Had I still been stuttering (to the point of being unable to communicate the need for assistance) or unable to walk on my own, then yeah, those would seem like valid reasons to refuse me access to the plane. A dizzy spell would not.
Yet you were denied admittance. You, as the lowly Ms. Somebody in this equation, need to be armed with something more potent than an understanding of your own condition. The airline knows and understands none of this, and cannot really be expected to.
quote: Both airports offered special shorter security lines for those with medical needs, which I had always thought were just for wheelchairs and very young children, but which I will probably request next time as standing in long lines is my arch-enemy (and why I never buy more items in a store than would allow me to use express checkout.) Wheelchair users also board first. Though personally, I found it incredibly annoying that my wheelchair attendant took possession of my boarding pass at every checkpoint. I felt like a child being wheeled around.
Now you're talking. Declare a medical condition, and accept the perks (and humiliations) as a part of life. These people just want everything to go as expected. If you are expected to have a medical condition, they will treat you differently, but they will also accomodate you more willingly.
quote: I'm still adjusting to the whole "just I feel better doesn't mean I'm cured" mentality.
In your first post, you came off as self-righteous that strangers were not able to grapple with this concept either. But now you seem to make the connection a bit more reasonably. In future, the only thing I would suggest is patience and preparation. Your plan to complain to the airline is unproductive, in my view.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Yeah. Entirely too self-righteous, heheheheh.
I didn't say low-level employee uncertainty was surprising, just that that was probably a good chunk of if not most of the problem-the ground shifting beneath her feet, so to speak. As to the rest, that's some laudable lecturing about how she ought to have made proactive decisions she has already decided to make. Nicely done!
And as for a complaint, the airline will get and consider it a part of doing business a complaint that some flight attendant was disrespectful because they didn't let someone move up to an empty seat in first class or told them to turn off their electronics, I'll bet. This seems a matter where they could use some more precise oversight and guidelines for employees.
Posted by Shigs (Member # 12864) on :
The most interesting part of the story by far was the bit where the woman suffered random faints and thought herself capable of driving a motor vehicle.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
She did mention it was a decision arrived at between her and her, you know, trained and licensed medical professional (that is, doctor).
Did you suffer a bout of dizziness while reading that part, Shigs, or did your eagerness to get in a zinger at someone venting about a frustrating, embarrassing experience simply dull your wits to the point that you missed it?
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
EMTs, while great, aren't nearly well-trained enough to be much use in a situation like yours.
Side note: I've had very good luck writing emails to customer service reps on carriers that have screwed up travel for me. Usually I'll start by complaining about the carrier publicly (on twitter), and one of them will contact me with an email and offer to help resolve it. Of course, me having a lot of followers might have something to do with that.
Posted by Shigs (Member # 12864) on :
She randomly loses conciousness. If and when this happens as she's driving, she could kill someone. Not necessarily herself.
Also, where does she state that her doctor recommends she drive?
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
It's in the first post in plain language, 'Shigs', or rather an unknown other Hatrackers using a screen name registered half a year ago now with a current total of two posts-in this thread.
So not only are you unwilling or unable to read attentively, you're almost certainly some other, more well known name who wants to take shots at someone who was venting about a bad experience from the safety of anonymity.
Well, weakness in the mind is no strange bedfellow to weakness in the spine.
Posted by Shigs (Member # 12864) on :
Actually, no, it doesn't. She says that someone questioned her driving, and she was offended by it. That's all. So I'm clarifying for her that the reason they questioned her is because she could faint whilst driving and kill someone.
You look very dashing in that sword and armor, Rakeesh.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shigs: She randomly loses conciousness.
Incorrect. Try reading her post again.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Shigs,
quote:I am furious that decisions made between my doctor and I regarding my ability to drive, were called into question.
After three chances to pay as much attention as a middle-schooler to a reading comprehension essay, color me unsurprised that you failed to come up to scratch. Now, neither of us know Shanna personally or her doctor, I am all but certain, so we cannot either of us speak with real authority. But we can use high-level skill in basic literacy to see that she has plainly indicated that she reached her decision to drive in conversation with her doctor.
As for a sword and armor, naw, don't elevate yourself. I don't think I've even corresponded with Shanna even here on Hatrack more than half a dozen times over the years. She's an amiable Hatrack acquaintance, that's all. It's just fun to call someone out who lacks both the meager guts necessary to criticize in their own *online* name who also manages to fail to even read the material they're being critical about.
I would say ask around, that would be very much in character for me, but there's a good chance you don't need to ask around, given that you're almost certainly a regular.
Posted by Shigs (Member # 12864) on :
She can't even make it to the end of a boarding tunnel for a plane. She'll hurt someone eventually.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:Originally posted by Shigs: She randomly loses conciousness.
Incorrect. Try reading her post again.
Rivka, there's only room for one knight in shining armor pointing out Shigs is full of crap in this thread, and clearly that's me.
Besides, aren't you like a girl or something? We'll get you a tall pointy hat with some cloth hanging from it, maybe a nice tower, and of course the requisite handkerchief, set you right up, kay?
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shigs: She can't even make it to the end of a boarding tunnel for a plane. She'll hurt someone eventually.
So now, with a careful study of medical history provided by this thread along with a lengthy analysis of her current health, you know better what will happen than her physician, Shigs.
That must be one HELL of a medical/prophecy/remote viewing college you attended.
Posted by Shigs (Member # 12864) on :
Hey, now.
I spent a lot of time in school to figure out that an unconcious person will crash the vehicle they're operating. Please don't belittle my hard work.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
Go back and spend some time on reading comprehension. See how adding the word 'randomly' where it doesn't belong can change the meaning of sentences.
You, for instance, spend a large portion of your day unconscious. By your reasoning, that means you can't safely operate a vehicle without it crashing, since you randomly pass out. IT'S A QUANDARY!
Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shigs: Hey, now.
I spent a lot of time in school to figure out that an unconcious person will crash the vehicle they're operating. Please don't belittle my hard work.
And if driving was a trigger that would be valid. I am hoping in your time learning to drive you also learned not to do a lot of standing up quickly (her main trigger) because that seems like a very dangerous thing to do while driving even without a medical problem.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: We'll get you a tall pointy hat with some cloth hanging from it
I prefer cloches.
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
Shigs, let me try to allay your misplaced fears. You're missing not only a general understanding of my condition (which was clarified repeatedly to the EMTs in simple language they should know) but my past medical history as well.
The way NCS is diagnosed is by observing changes in orthostatics. Every doctor's visit I have begins with a nurse who takes my heart rate and blood pressure while lying down and then again while I'm standing. There is a atleast a 20 point drop in either when you move me to a standing position. A normal person's body is much better at counteracting the change in gravity as it pulls all your blood down to your feet. My nervous system sucks at this and either doesn't react fast enough or overreacts in the wrong direction (dropping my heart rate instead of raising it.) The actual test used to diagnose me involved strapping me to an upright board and seeing how long I can stay conscious if I am unable to move. I lasted about 13 minutes and even then, they stopped the test before I blacked out. You can get my heartrate down to 30 bpm and drop my oxygen saturation down to 80% and I'll still be awake, just fuzzy. As such, I am a minor case.
With medication, I can now stand through entire concerts. I will do things like bounce on my toes or shift my weight in order to elevate my blood pressure. I also consume about 5x more sodium on a daily than recommended for a healthy person in order to keep my blood pressure and blood volume high.
In two years, I have only had one "faint" (which for me is a loss in muscle tone, not a lose of consciousness) while sitting and it was after eating a large meal. Now that we know food is a trigger for me, I do not eat less than an hour before I drive. When I was sicker, if I felt too weak to drive, I called out at work. I do not get into a vehicle if I do not feel healthy. Interestingly enough, my friends and coworkers who have witnessed some of my worst episodes from my early days do not worry about getting into a car with me. Driving is comfortable for me. I'm sitting so I don't have to worry about an orthostatic reaction and I'm using my feet to push the peddles so the constant lower leg tension keeps my blood pressure at a nice high number. I've had so many tests on my heart that atleast in some areas, I'm safer than some man or woman who hasn't had a check-up in years and is a heart-attack waiting to happen.
Some fainters (including myself) also usually feel warning signs called pre-syncope. What happened on the gangway was exactly that. I began to feel the beginning of a drop and instead of ignoring it and pushing on, I found a solid surface to rest at. And in the end, did not faint with or without a loss of consciousness.
Ideally, the laws and protections for those who are sick and/or disabled are there to protect them from the ignorance of people in positions of authority or power. I don't expect them to be medical expert, though I do hope the EMTs are atleast trained enough to know about "orthostatics" so that they can give sound advice. But "it makes me uncomfortable" is not enough of a reason to prohibit me from making my own medical decisions. That kind of logic was once used against people in wheelchairs or people who are deaf which is why we now have these laws and guidelines. We live in an ever evolving medical world and people with lesser known illnesses and chronic conditions need to be the final voices for their own limitations and abilities, not some medically unknowledgable gate attendant.
Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
I think you should complain because I think airlines need to be aware. I don't know what good it will do but I think making the complaint is still worth the time.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
quote:EMTs, while great, aren't nearly well-trained enough to be much use in a situation like yours.
Depends on whether they were basic EMT's or EMT-Paramedics. Paramedics are highly trained and usually very, very good at patient assessment - much better than most doctors and nurses, in fact. They work independently under medical protocols, unlike nurses, and I'd much rather be evaluated by one in a public place, than I would be evaluated by a doctor or nurse who is away from the usual trappings and equipment he/she is used to working with.
Standards for paramedics have risen sharply over the years, and it's now as difficult, and in some places probably more difficult to get a paramedic license than it is to get an RN. With the national registry movement, attaining a license is difficult now, and keeping it even more so with the required continuing education hours. Whenever you have time and are bored, try looking at the education standards for paramedics. Keep in mind, they do most of the same types of medical education classes nurses do, and then they have to learn the protocols they work under. Those protocols are updated every two years and re-certification is necessary.
I'm not knocking nurses, who are wonderful and work hard, but many people have the attitude that paramedics are wanna-bes who couldn't hack nursing school. So not true. In fact, my husband has taught many a nurse in paramedic school who has come back to get their paramedic certification because many of the premier jobs they want (flight nurses for critical care transport, etc.) require a paramedic license because of the need to act independently. Many of them have remarked that attaining that paramedic license was much harder than nursing school.
Sorry for the rant, but my hubby spends his life now as an educator teaching the next generation of paramedics, and one thing that he always complains about is we have to fight public perception, too. People unfortunately don't see paramedics as the professionals they truly are, and it's disappointing. It's changing, though - slowly. One thing that has picked up in the last few years is paramedics being employed outside traditional fire/rescue. Doctors offices are figuring it out and hiring them over RN's because they can do more with less supervision. Emergency rooms area doing the same. It's a slow process, but we'll get there.
I'm not surprised they pressured you to go to the hospital, because they would also be thinking of the liability and their own duty to act. Had they cleared you, and you collapsed of a heart condition (and many of your symptoms can definitely be symptoms of an underlying heart condition) on the plane and died, they would have faced loss of their license at the best. Once you were in their care, they cannot abandon the care of you until you either sign away your consent to treatment (which you did, with the refusal of transport) or they turn you over to the care of a physician.
tl;dr - paramedics are more competent than most people think, and probably acted accordingly
Regardless, the whole thing sucked for you Shannna and I'm sorry it happened. Posted by Shigs (Member # 12864) on :
Shanna - That's fair enough. But Belle is right on the liability stuff.
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Besides, aren't you like a girl or something? We'll get you a tall pointy hat with some cloth hanging from it, maybe a nice tower, and of course the requisite handkerchief, set you right up, kay?
It wasn't until I got to the handkerchief that I realized you were saying she could be a damsel in distress, as opposed to a wizard.
Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
Damsels can be wizards, and even damsel-wizards need a little help now and then.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:Originally posted by Belle:
quote:EMTs, while great, aren't nearly well-trained enough to be much use in a situation like yours.
Depends on whether they were basic EMT's or EMT-Paramedics. Paramedics are highly trained and usually very, very good at patient assessment - much better than most doctors and nurses, in fact. They work independently under medical protocols, unlike nurses, and I'd much rather be evaluated by one in a public place, than I would be evaluated by a doctor or nurse who is away from the usual trappings and equipment he/she is used to working with.
Standards for paramedics have risen sharply over the years, and it's now as difficult, and in some places probably more difficult to get a paramedic license than it is to get an RN. With the national registry movement, attaining a license is difficult now, and keeping it even more so with the required continuing education hours. Whenever you have time and are bored, try looking at the education standards for paramedics. Keep in mind, they do most of the same types of medical education classes nurses do, and then they have to learn the protocols they work under. Those protocols are updated every two years and re-certification is necessary.
I'm not knocking nurses, who are wonderful and work hard, but many people have the attitude that paramedics are wanna-bes who couldn't hack nursing school. So not true. In fact, my husband has taught many a nurse in paramedic school who has come back to get their paramedic certification because many of the premier jobs they want (flight nurses for critical care transport, etc.) require a paramedic license because of the need to act independently. Many of them have remarked that attaining that paramedic license was much harder than nursing school.
Sorry for the rant, but my hubby spends his life now as an educator teaching the next generation of paramedics, and one thing that he always complains about is we have to fight public perception, too. People unfortunately don't see paramedics as the professionals they truly are, and it's disappointing. It's changing, though - slowly. One thing that has picked up in the last few years is paramedics being employed outside traditional fire/rescue. Doctors offices are figuring it out and hiring them over RN's because they can do more with less supervision. Emergency rooms area doing the same. It's a slow process, but we'll get there.
I'm not surprised they pressured you to go to the hospital, because they would also be thinking of the liability and their own duty to act. Had they cleared you, and you collapsed of a heart condition (and many of your symptoms can definitely be symptoms of an underlying heart condition) on the plane and died, they would have faced loss of their license at the best. Once you were in their care, they cannot abandon the care of you until you either sign away your consent to treatment (which you did, with the refusal of transport) or they turn you over to the care of a physician.
tl;dr - paramedics are more competent than most people think, and probably acted accordingly
Thanks for posting -- I am aware of the difference between EMTs and Paramedics, but you're right to point out that they are often lumped together. I've said for years that, if I were in a medical emergency, the only person I'd prefer to a paramedic is an ER doc.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shigs: She can't even make it to the end of a boarding tunnel for a plane. She'll hurt someone eventually.
Why would you look at this a courageous new poster speaking cold hard confrontational truths right out of the gate without introductions, truly a patriot
Posted by Shigs (Member # 12864) on :
Thank you for the kind words, Samp. They are appreciated. I am indeed patriotic.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Please just cut to the expected reveal and let us know what your primary posting account identity is
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Yeah. Entirely too self-righteous, heheheheh.
I didn't say low-level employee uncertainty was surprising, just that that was probably a good chunk of if not most of the problem-the ground shifting beneath her feet, so to speak. As to the rest, that's some laudable lecturing about how she ought to have made proactive decisions she has already decided to make. Nicely done!
You don't really have a call to be such a dick. I'm not trying to be an asshole here. You apparently are.
Posted by Shigs (Member # 12864) on :
I'm afraid that I don't have another name on this board. Never have.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
And yet you referred to Samp by the preferred short form of his username. Not something you might expect from someone who never posted her before today. Interesting that.
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: And yet you referred to Samp by the preferred short form of his username. Not something you might expect from someone who never posted her before today. Interesting that.
Actually, "Samp" is the assumption virtually everyone makes. Even though it's actually two words, Sam Primary. If I remember right, the preferred choice, inasmuch as he cares at all, which I don't think he really does, is actually "Sam."
Since, you know, that's his name.
Also, if the guy's been lurking for 6 months, that's plenty of time to see everyone call him "Samp."
Speaking of... having a 6 month period of non-posting isn't that surprising to me. I had an account for years and years before I posted.
Do we have some actual cause to think he's an alt? Maybe he's just a new guy who's a bit of a prat. I can't think of any jerks on Hatrack who would be ashamed or reluctant to be straightforwardly a jerk in this way, if they felt it was warranted.
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
He's definitely an alt; we can just know these things.
Sincerely, parkour
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dan_Frank: Do we have some actual cause to think he's an alt? Maybe he's just a new guy who's a bit of a prat. I can't think of any jerks on Hatrack who would be ashamed or reluctant to be straightforwardly a jerk in this way, if they felt it was warranted.
I realize your role is often as resident naysayer, but don't naysay this merely out of habit. He's posted a handful of posts, one of the first of which was a note of praise for Ron about keeping the faith alive (or to that effect).
I write and read and parse words for a living. As Samp said, you can just tell when it's an alt, and you'd be a chump not to come down on the side of trusting your instincts. I think we've been through a few people who used alts consistently, but it was more or less always the same approximate M.O. I can't remember if Bean Counter used alts, but I do seem to remember a fall off of a particular kind of rare poster when he was sent to Iraq (and regrettably, was killed there).
Posted by Shigs (Member # 12864) on :
I hereby give your mod permission to compare and contrast my IP address to other screennames. I promise you, this is not an alt. Dan is a lot closer then anyone else has been.
Of course, I could be using a proxy. And ya'll are not at all likely to take my word on this. And I promise that tonight I will be crying bitter, bitter tears into my pillow over that.
Seriously.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: I can't remember if Bean Counter used alts,
he did, including open flaunting ones post-ban
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shigs: Dan is a lot closer then anyone else has been.
Well he did correctly note that you are a prat, so
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Yeah, "Shigs" is pretty clearly an alt -- and a troll, at that. Let it go, please, before it becomes a thing.
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
Personally, I don't care if Shigs is a newbie or an alt. Either way, I found his comments very insensitive and purposefully rude. It doesn't matter to me if these are judgments coming from a regular who is feeling hurtful and decided to pick on a lurker or from a new member who thinks they can make a splash by being offensive and willfully ignorant.
If nothing else, either motivation just serves to prove the larger point that atleast some segment of the population associates physical illness with personal weakness. There is this idea that I am sick and therefore unable to be trusted to make informed and rational decisions regarding my life and how it affects others.
Part of this original post was inspired by the conversation happening over in the thread about the 50's themed party. Because while I've had a few eye-roll moments when dealing with social justice bloggers, I do have friends who have been incredibly aided and emotionally comforted by the awareness aspect of social justice and its terminology which can seem unusual to outsiders but can be quite powerful for individuals who have been searching for words to express how different they feel inside.
When it began to become apparent to my boss that I was not going to suddenly be cured, I had to go through this very stressful process of sitting down and making formal accommodations requests in order to protect my job, which in turn protects my health as it is what allows me to keep paying my medical bills. For someone like myself who is very independent, it was quite difficult to formalize the idea that "I am disabled and therefore need help with these x-tasks and will need to have y-tasks removed from my responsibility."
Talking with people in the disability and invisible illness communities about ableism has been a great way for me to deal with my frustrations and resulting depression. My coworkers are like my second family and I have a great relationship with my boss. But for weeks, I had to deal with questions that were constantly blurring our professional/personal relationship. I was questioned as to whether it was wise for me to live alone. I was asked why I didn't take a friend to my doctor appointments to make sure I didn't miss anything. It was repeatedly mentioned that maybe I should go on disability leave so that I could really focus on getting better, that maybe I just wasn't trying hard enough.
There are things that I do in my own personal life on the advice of my doctor (who actually has a variation of my condition) that even my friends aren't aware of. I don't broadcast alot of what I do and how I feel because I'm trying to build this idea of my "new normal." Spontaneous recovery does happen but its just as likely that I will be dealing with this for the rest of my life. I try to be grateful because for some people this becomes a degenerative condition or the true underlying cause rears its head and they find themselves battling a much more difficult illness.
I've actually talked with a few people who have Ehler-Danlos Syndrome (a connective tissue disorder that some are diagnosed with after years of fainting) about whether or not life was easier before or after they began using a wheelchair as their primary locomotion. While its not an opinion shared by all, some said that while they hate the confining nature of being in a wheelchair, they find that people are compassionate after than they were when they were still walking. There is a stigma against invisible illnesses which includes nonsense like, "you don't look sick" or "you'd get better if you really tried."
So for me, the airport is part of this larger issue of me getting tired of being treated differently or not having my rights protected because "I don't look sick" or because I don't want to conform to excessive accommodations for a non-life threatening chronic illness. There's also the secondary issue of non-medical experts relying on their own limited knowledge rather than allowing me and those who are knowledgeable to make decisions. When strangers get involved the results are at best inconvenient and discriminating, at worst dangerous.
The second part actually refers to an incident a few months ago when I accompanied a friend to a bar because she needed cheering up. The late hour and large noisy crowd brought on a full-blown episode. My friend nearly assaulted a group of strangers who blocked her attempts to help me (by bringing me salt and water) and instead decided to treat me like a sloppy drunk and attempt to prematurely get me to my feet. Every lift of my head knocked me unconscious and when I would come around, they continued to ignore my sobbing pleas to stop touching me.
Sorry for the excessively long post, but yeah, I have a personal sore spot when it comes to people telling me what's best for me.
Posted by Shigs (Member # 12864) on :
How much money do you think it costs your employer to have to keep you over someone who isn't disabled?
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
If you were reading closely, or if you cared, you'd probably realize the answer is: nothing extra.
And even if it was something, we have laws to protect people with disabilities.
Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
On invisible diseases, when my mom and I went to Disneyland, she rented a scooter. She has a bunch of medical problems and had just has surgery. Even with the scooter, when we used the handicap lines, some of the workers acted like everyone in the line was trying to pull a fast one and just skip the lines. And in our case, the disease wasnt invisible. Though my mom is overweight so they might have assumed the scooter was just out of laziness since people immediately assume fat and lazy are the same.
We used to have someone here who was very active with handicap rights. Sndrake? He might have some suggestions if one of the regulars still has contact info.
ETA: his website is www.notdeadyet.org Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
Shanna, I sympathize with the invisible illness thing. My condition isn't obvious and doesn't really stop me from doing any specific tasks -- I just can't do as many things before I get tired. It sounds like you have some good plans for avoiding this sort of thing in the future, and I wish you the best of luck.
Posted by Emreecheek (Member # 12082) on :
Shanna, I really hope the airline listens to you. Their behavior was unnecessarily othering and ableist. I'm glad your Christmas wasn't ruined. Because that sounds like a very bracing experience.
Posted by Shigs (Member # 12864) on :
I've had ketoacidosis and had to choose between ICU and going to work and paying my rent. Sometimes life is hard and you have to make tough choices.
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
And always should a person make their own medical choices based on their own specific condition and needs. We should also fight for the right of people to not have to choose between health care and a roof over their head. I've done the whole eat ramen for a month to pay for my medications. This year I delayed a checkup so I could buy Xmas presents. But I refuse to sit back and act like we as a society can't or shouldn't do better.
But I applaud you for making your own decisions regarding your health and would not recommend you take any action other than what you know is best for you.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Shanna, I'm sorry that you had to deal with that from the airline.
Posted by Emreecheek (Member # 12082) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shigs: I've had ketoacidosis and had to choose between ICU and going to work and paying my rent. Sometimes life is hard and you have to make tough choices.
Which did you choose?
I'm going to say it was the wrong one.
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shanna: I had put my medications in my checked bag so I would have to worry about all of them at security.
NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER check meds.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shigs: I've had ketoacidosis and had to choose between ICU and going to work and paying my rent. Sometimes life is hard and you have to make tough choices.
Are you an alcoholic, by chance?
Posted by Shigs (Member # 12864) on :
Emree - I went to work. Because the only thing worse then being sick without insurance, is being sick without insurance while also being homeless. I think I made the right choice, despite the fact that that period of my life probably took fifteen to twenty years off of my lifespan. At least.
Orincoro - I've never been much of a drinker. A hangover is bad, a hangover compounded by an extremely high blood sugar level is about a hundred times worse. When this happened, I couldn't even afford test strips to test my blood levels regularly, and the result, eventually, was ketoacidosis.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shigs: Emree - I went to work. Because the only thing worse then being sick without insurance, is being sick without insurance while also being homeless.
Actually, you're probably wrong on this: indigence has its advantages in the American system: it's only once you have been depleted of everything that the system is actually willing to consider paying for your treatment. No matter that it will now cost everyone a whole lot more to treat you than it would have to help you before things got so bad.
I wonder what your views are on socialized medicine, given your experience. 20 years were taken off your lifespan, you claim- would you rather have had the option, at the time, of getting subsidized treatment, even had it meant higher taxes and government interference in medical decisions?
And by the way, as a total aside, I think you're crazy if you really did choose to work instead of having yourself treated for chronically high blood sugar. My father is now fully disabled, at a painfully young age, due to complications of type 1 diabetes; and a lot of that damage occurred before the technology to test blood sugar outside a clinical environment existed. These are the days when Type 1 diabetics would walk around with levels like 200-300mg/dl on a daily basis, and inject themselves with a set amount of insulin twice a day (which, without the ability to test blood sugar, can be extremely dangerous).
Posted by Shigs (Member # 12864) on :
I was living like that, injections two or three times a day without testing, for about two and a half years. I'm twenty eight, and portions of my legs and feet are permanently numb. I've managed to find full time work, with benefits, but the occasional emergency expense can still throw me in that boat.
My father is an American citizen, but I was born in the United Kingdom, and we moved here when I was nine. There's a lot to like about this country, but the one thing that makes me wish we had stayed is the healthcare system.
My viewpoint is obviously biased, but I think the system here is monstrous. Every other western country has it, and it works perfectly fine in them all. I would gladly pay more in taxes for socialized medicine, and I think people who morally object to such a thing are anti-social at a fundamental level.
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
quote:Originally posted by scholarette: On invisible diseases, when my mom and I went to Disneyland, she rented a scooter. She has a bunch of medical problems and had just has surgery. Even with the scooter, when we used the handicap lines, some of the workers acted like everyone in the line was trying to pull a fast one and just skip the lines. And in our case, the disease wasnt invisible. Though my mom is overweight so they might have assumed the scooter was just out of laziness since people immediately assume fat and lazy are the same.
Well, that's disappointing to hear. My mom and I have been trying to plan a mini-family vacation to go visit the Wizarding World of Harry Potter with maybe a quick stop at Disneyworld. Everything I had read hinted at Disney being more accommodating than Universal Studios. Of course, she's still resisting setting a date because of my health. Both myself and my doctor (who also is a chronic fainter) have a very "it is what it is" attitude to our episodes. We know our recovery techniques and its not like it'll kill us. The most dangerous event for me was a year ago when I had an IV inserted after an 8-hour fast. My heart stopped for 23 seconds before spontaneously restarting. A few weeks ago I decided to test my new resilience by getting my ear cartilage pierced. Took the necessary precautions and came out the other end without even feeling dizzy. Weird triggers do pop up for me but I don't want to live my entire life afraid of a 5% chance of smacking my head on the ground and giving a few people a good scare.
quote: How much money do you think it costs your employer to have to keep you over someone who isn't disabled?
It would actually be pretty interesting to do the math to find out how much money they'd have to spend to train a new hire to the point where I'm at. In my position as head of my department, there is only a single person (one of my bosses, who is unlikely to step down to fill my job) who knows how to do half my job. Many of my new restrictions actually refer to tasks outside my job requirements. I am one of only three non-manager employees who could do every single job at our location including several jobs that are above my pay grade. There are only two departments in my location with concrete rather than carpet floors. The first is in an area that is loud and very triggering (hence my ban) and I'm still allowed access to the second as long as I am not there alone for an extended period of time. Everything else is going to be special organizational training with my lead boss because she's going to help me find way to cope with some of my memory troubles. There's also a few accommodations in regards to limited early morning shifts and limiting physical work after meals when I am most at risk for an episode. I should be able to do everything within my job requirements but its going to take some time to find new ways to do certain tasks.
Shigs, I have a younger brother will type 1 diabetes and it breaks my heart to hear about the sacrifices to your health that you've chosen to make. I'm glad that our country is finally making the early steps into healthcare reform but I really wish it would hurry up so it could be more of a benefit to yourself and others who constantly dreading the next hospital bill.
I really don't know where I would be without having my parents as an emergency back-up. I mean, I've done some real damage to my credit score having to choose between the electric bill and medical bills. A recent round of blood work, even after insurance, came out to more than I make in a week and when you live paycheck to paycheck, you just pay what you can and as you go and hope the collectors don't hunt you down. I still remember walking into my appointment for my MRI, back when two different doctors were convinced my episodes were seizures, and calling my mom sobbing because they wanted a initial payment that was more than half my monthly income. She had them charge her over the phone and I really don't know what I would have done without them there.
The way we handle illness in the country is a nightmare. We take people who are feeling scared and overwhelmed and physically miserable and ask them to take on ridiculously high bills and endless insurance fights while dealing with a general public that is either throwing mountains of pity or disgust at them.
Posted by Shigs (Member # 12864) on :
What's really great, is that even with an insurance plan, you still have co-pays for tests and hospital visits. Not always small ones. It adds up quickly.
Shanna - I'm glad that you can get those accomendations. When I was part time, my family and I were in a really bad spot. I needed full time, and if I had asked for special treatment, or called in sick, I wouldn't have gotten the promotion. There are laws, but it's awfully hard to prove a case.
Posted by Fuzzy (Member # 12928) on :
I can sympathise, Shanna. I actually have similar experiences (with fainting, not with airports), albeit less serious.
I've been fainting (or nearly fainting) once or twice a year since my early teens (I'm now in my early 30s). Never for the usual reasons (low blood suger, getting up too quickly etc). Also never seems to happen when I'm getting exercise - usually when sitting down, actually. Sometimes I end up completely unconscious and wake up on the floor. Sometimes I just get to the point of loss of vision and near loss of hearing, without quite falling unconscious. It often (but not always) seems to have psychological triggers (e.g. worrying about fainting can actually cause me to faint). After lying down for a bit it comes right and I'm back to normal within an hour or two.
But I still find it a bit terrifying at the time - wondering whether I'll ever wake up again.
The few times I saw a doctor or nurse after it happened, they essentially said "it's nothing", without offering any explanation as to why I would faint like this when no-one else I knew at the time did. So I've never been officially diagnosed with anything.
Then a while ago I found out my boss has a condition that sounds exactly like yours (where his heart briefly slows or stops beating, causing loss of consciousness, and then comes right on its own as soon as he's on the ground). I still don't know if my symptoms have the same cause, but I guess it's not as rare as I thought. I just hope I don't end up in an ambulance like he did.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote:My viewpoint is obviously biased, but I think the system here is monstrous.
Yes. The NHS is by no means perfect, or even "excellent". Maybe it's not even "good" in certain areas, especially with the freaking recession cuts. But at the very least, you have the opportunity to manage basic conditions like diabetes for little to no cost.
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
Fuzzy, you may have a sensitive vasovagal nerve. Are you ever triggered by pain? Triggered by scary situations?
For instance, since I started fainting I have always had my out-of-the-blue faints but sometimes mine are situational. Like, when I got my first B12 injection they did it while I was standing. I felt fine but then I toppled over like a tree. I have similar reactions to pain (like stubbing my toe) or heightened emotional situations (like when a customer curses me out at work.)
Most people will have a faint (aka vasovagal syncope event) atleast once in their life. Brought on by a needle or the sight of blood or something fear-related. Some people are more sensitive to it than others.
Depending on how often it happens, there may not be anything a doctor can do. Its only when my episodes began to happen more often (several in a month, sometimes several in a week) that we scheduled a number of heart monitors and then a tilt table test which records what actually happens to a body during a faint. The most common drugs they use for fainters are beta-blockers. Each drug in the class works differently depending on your individual symptoms and I went through about six different ones before I found one that works and doesn't have any wild side-effects. For me, it sort of works by blocking some of the receptors can cause my system to freak out. I also couple it with steroids and a ridiculous number of supplements.
The various fainting disorders aren't that rare though while they all look alike from the outside, they can be very different. Some people are just chronic fainters. But I have a chronically low heart rate coupled with fatigue, memory issues, trouble sleeping, and poor body temperature regulation, which is more common in people with malfunctioning autonomic nervous systems. I actually started seeing my doctor because he was recommended by a coworker/friend who had just been diagnosed with gastroparesis which is a form of dysautonomia that causes the stomach to become paralyzed.
Thank goodness I found him cause I was getting so disheartened working with cardiologists who just wanted to poke around in my heart or throw drugs at me. Specialists who are willing to treat full body conditions are hard to find. The leading doctors in our speciality have wait-lists topping a year. I still occasionally have run-ins with doctors who tell me nonsense like, only girls get fainting disorders or you'll grow out of it or its because you don't exercise. Would have loved to hear them tell that to the now former-marathon runners and recent male war veterans in my support groups.
Fun fact: One of the guys from that kids' band The Wiggles had to leave for awhile because he was diagnosed with POTS (the high heart rate version of my disorder.)
Posted by Fuzzy (Member # 12928) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shanna: Fuzzy, you may have a sensitive vasovagal nerve. Are you ever triggered by pain? Triggered by scary situations?
Pain - yes. Scary situations - sort of. Mild anxiety about (often hypothetical) health issues seems to be my most common trigger, rather than sudden scares or heightened emotion.
But sometimes it just happens out of the blue.
I won't seek a medical solution unless things get worse (fingers crossed). Thanks for the info!
Posted by Aros (Member # 4873) on :
When someone comes across as rude or insensitive due to ignorance, how culpable are they actually? From their perspective, they're actually the good guy. Right? And fighting the noble fight?
We just have to be patient with some people. Not everyone has all the facts. Maybe they have a disability?
And, frankly, I'm appalled at how this community is behaving toward a newcomer. Even if they're a little brash or outspoken. Like we've never seen that before.
Posted by Misha McBride (Member # 6578) on :
Ignorance and being a newcomer don't excuse the rude accusatory tone Shigs came out of the gate with, and he/she was very rightly called on it.
Posted by Aros (Member # 4873) on :
When someone stumbles, the wise response isn't to push them.
Posted by Parkour (Member # 12078) on :
the wise response is to not be gullible or otherwise give them a pass just because their intentionally shitty comment is under a new account.
And yes, the word for someone who doesn't see that shigs is trolling is "gullible"
Posted by Aros (Member # 4873) on :
Not sure if that's the case, or if Shigs was trying to broach the tangential topic of when driving privileges should be revoked due to medical conditions.
I know I disagree with many doctor's opinions on who can / can't drive. I know a severe diet / medication controlled epileptic who's allowed to drive. Sure, if they follow their diet, they may only experience one or two grand mal seizures a year. But can society trust that they'll keep to their strict medication / diet regimen? Even so, allowing one seizure a year is worse than allowing someone a free pass to drive drunk on New Years.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
It wasn't even new. And the problem wasn't, for me, ignorance or lack of tact-it was that he accused another posted of being a would-be killer behind the wheel on the basis of the notion that she was just driving without thought for others. Then, when it was pointed out, he behaved as though it hadn't been said-as though he hadn't been, in fact, ignorant himself and unfairly accusatory about a serious thing.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Aros: Even so, allowing one seizure a year is worse than allowing someone a free pass to drive drunk on New Years.
Statistical evidence, please.
Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
why the assumption that the person will be driving when faint/seizure? Most people's body gives them some warning before doing crazy stuff. When it is rare enough, you may not recognize warning signs but chronic sufferers seem to know pretty well when they are going to have problems.
Posted by Aros (Member # 4873) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:Originally posted by Aros: Even so, allowing one seizure a year is worse than allowing someone a free pass to drive drunk on New Years.
Statistical evidence, please.
My apology. It was merely an inference that that an incapacitating seizure would provide more impairment than a few glasses of wine. I guess we could call Mythbusters.....
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Aros: an inference that that an incapacitating seizure would provide more impairment than a few glasses of wine.
No, it was an unfounded speculation.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by scholarette: why the assumption that the person will be driving when faint/seizure?
Because otherwise Shigs -- sorry, I mean Aros -- wouldn't have anything to argue about.
Posted by Aros (Member # 4873) on :
Haha. I should adopt an alt?
No, I think he was totally wrong. I just thought it was beneath you folks to pounce like you did -- regardless of a lack of tact on Shigs's behalf. I mean . . . Orincoro was the polite one. What kind of universe is this?
Posted by brojack17 (Member # 9189) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shanna:
quote:Originally posted by scholarette: On invisible diseases, when my mom and I went to Disneyland, she rented a scooter. She has a bunch of medical problems and had just has surgery. Even with the scooter, when we used the handicap lines, some of the workers acted like everyone in the line was trying to pull a fast one and just skip the lines. And in our case, the disease wasnt invisible. Though my mom is overweight so they might have assumed the scooter was just out of laziness since people immediately assume fat and lazy are the same.
Well, that's disappointing to hear. My mom and I have been trying to plan a mini-family vacation to go visit the Wizarding World of Harry Potter with maybe a quick stop at Disneyworld. Everything I had read hinted at Disney being more accommodating than Universal Studios. Of course, she's still resisting setting a date because of my health. Both myself and my doctor (who also is a chronic fainter) have a very "it is what it is" attitude to our episodes. We know our recovery techniques and its not like it'll kill us. The most dangerous event for me was a year ago when I had an IV inserted after an 8-hour fast. My heart stopped for 23 seconds before spontaneously restarting. A few weeks ago I decided to test my new resilience by getting my ear cartilage pierced. Took the necessary precautions and came out the other end without even feeling dizzy. Weird triggers do pop up for me but I don't want to live my entire life afraid of a 5% chance of smacking my head on the ground and giving a few people a good scare.
I don't want to discount the encounter scholarette had at Disneyland, but DW and DL are two COMPLETELY different places. The first time we went to DW, my wife was 7 mos pregnant. The only way and reason we went is because I was in Orlando for a conference and it made it affordable. We rented a scooter and everyone was more than helpful. At least as far as the staff went. We would get looks and sighs from peple in line when we would get special treatment, but so what. Go do what you need to do and rent a scooter. The workers will be great to you. Don't worry about the other people.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
It was not simply a lack of tact. It was when Shigs directly asserted that Shanna was behaving in a grossly negligent, dangerous way by choosing to drive-with all the attendant moral impairment that would imply. Then, when informed that she had arrived at that decision with her doctor and had said so first responded that she hadn't said that and then said nothing afterwards when it was shown she had-which he would've known anyway had he read the post to begin with.
Just accusing that she had been so stupid and negligent without seeking clarification would be bad, but likely wouldn't have garnered such response. It took the rest of it.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Aros: No, I think he was totally wrong. I just thought it was beneath you folks to pounce like you did -- regardless of a lack of tact on Shigs's behalf.
If anybody posted a comment like that here, with a shaming assailment of a person who has opened up about their disability and shared the details about a struggle they are dealing with, and put it so mockingly as "The most interesting part of the story by far was the bit where the woman suffered random faints and thought herself capable of driving a motor vehicle." ur hur hur hur, this isn't "trying to broach the tangential topic," it's a lazy ignorant insult. Echoing the sentiments of my obvious alt sockpuppet parkour (recently featured in Year of Fail video compilations and an ER Near You!) if you aren't already treating shigs as a troll probably-alt, ur gullible k
Posted by Aros (Member # 4873) on :
*Self-examination* Maybe I'm gullible? Or a troll? I should avoid direct sunlight just in case.
I guess this is an example of the popular sentiment- "Welcome to Hatrack . . . you're wrong."
I wonder why the community's been shrinking over the years?
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
I have explained it in detail and the answer is assuredly not that people being total jerks are responded to as jerks even if they are new usernames
Posted by Shigs (Member # 12864) on :
I was responding honestly to her arrogance. As if people met on the street shouldn't be wondering if she should be driving when they meet the Amazing Fainting Woman. The explanation she gave us is detailed, and it sounds as if she's being responsible. But every person she meets should have already debriefed themselves on Shanna's illness? I think not. I've dealt with as bad or worse my entire life, and she should probably just get a thicker skin.
I appreciate the defense, Aros, but the opinions of the regulars here mean nothing to me. I'll write what I want to write, when I want to write it. You should be careful, though, as it looks as if The Internet Detectives are ready to declare you as my non-existant alt.
Posted by scholarette (Member # 11540) on :
Brojack17, we did disneyworld with a scooter and had no problems but that was almost a decade ago so I wasn't sure d it was passage of time or different location. Glad you guys had no problems. I am surprised at how much more I like disneyworld to Disneyland. And both I like better than hong kong Disney.
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
Shigs, I just don't understand why you think its okay for society to continue to be ignorant and judgmental. You're right, people say and do horrible things to people with health conditions or disabilities, but I'm personally not the kind of person who is just going to be like, "well, you can't change anything."
There are several members of the family on my mother's side who are deaf and I've heard their stories about how the perception of deaf individuals has changed. When my great-uncle was growing up, people used to avoid him in public and visibly move away from him. Now his deaf grandkids tell stories about how they'll be out shopping and the cashier will know ASL. They still run into people who think they are mentally-handicapped because they are deaf, but its getting better. We've seen the same shifts in how people respond to others with diabetes or epilepsy.
Why do we allow people to use their ignorance as an excuse to be rude? You don't have to be a medical expert to look at someone who has a condition and think, "perhaps I should keep my opinions to myself as I am neither the individual in front of me nor their doctor." You just have to be a decent person.
Posted by Aros (Member # 4873) on :
My point isn't that we should excuse ignorance as a reason to be rude. Merely that being rude in response to ignorance -- rather than a conciliatory, educational attitude -- is not a solution.
Not accusing Shanna, of course. Maybe a few others...
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Shigs: If you could dial down the hostility a bit, I'd appreciate it.
----
As for those addressing Shigs, lets operate under the assumption that Shigs has an unpopular opinion, and that, while unpleasant, and even rudely expressed, is still an honest one.
Posted by Shigs (Member # 12864) on :
BlackBlade - I'll apologize for the one thing I feel kind of bad for. Sorry, Shanna, for referring to you as the AFW. Wasn't called for. Also, if I weren't a lurker, I wouldn't know you were a mod under that handle, and would likely have told you to piss off.
Shanna - You're asking strangers to blindly trust that you have your condition under control, and that you are fully aware of your limitations. No one should be able to stop you driving if you're medically cleared, sure. But why should this random person know enough about you or your condition to just trust that you won't faint behind the wheel, exactly as you did on that walkway?
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
The whole point is that it doesn't matter what they do or do not know about medicine or myself. Its about being respectful. I live in the south so I'm used to the idea that alot of people hold alot of discriminating opinions, and I try to be grateful for the ones who atleast know to keep their mouths shut and not perpetuate ignorant, out-dated modes of thinking.
You don't say to someone in a wheelchair, "Wow! I can't believe your family lets you out of the house on your own." You don't say to someone with autism, "Wow! I can't believe you have a job."
The perceived rarity of my condition does not negate the fact that it is still a medical condition and therefore a very personal matter. My medical condition also does not negate the fact that I am still a human being deserving of basic respect and being treated with dignity.
Posted by Emreecheek (Member # 12082) on :
Why should we assume anybody doesn't have their situation under control?
Posted by Emreecheek (Member # 12082) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shigs: But why should this random person know enough about you or your condition to just trust that you won't faint behind the wheel, exactly as you did on that walkway?
Just for the record... You're not a random person. You're somebody who knew, I think, enough of her condition to be able to assume she wouldn't faint behind the wheel of a car. Much less be a total prat.
Do you have friends? Like, in real life?
Posted by Shigs (Member # 12864) on :
Shanna - You don't say those things to an autistic or wheelchair bound person in those situations because they can only, at most, harm themselves. A person fainting whilst driving a car, however...
Emree - The random person in question was the gentleman who originally offended Shanna. As for me, I do indeed have friends in real life. It's one reason among many why I don't have to care what any of you people think.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
For someone who doesn't care, you're making a frequent point of telling people how much you don't care.
Anyway, just so we're clear, are you now claiming that your original criticism-the one that, aside from your derogatory attitude, received the response (that you dont care about, and people here can't stop you from saying) you're reacting to-that your original criticism wasn't 'ugh, this woman who thinks she isn't a risk behind the wheel' was instead 'why do you expect these people to know you aren't a risk?'
I just wanted to clarify. You did a poor job reading Shanna's post, so there's precedent for this sort of mistake. We can check, though, to see what you actually said...
"The most interesting part of the story by far was the bit where the woman suffered random faints and thought herself capable of driving a motor vehicle."
Well, so there it is. Your initial entry (six months after registration, as your first post) was emphatically *not* to point out that she shouldn't expect strangers to have an awareness of her driving ability.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
remember everyone: shigs don't care
REMEMBER he DOES NOT CARE okay
NO CARES
Posted by Shigs (Member # 12864) on :
Hey guys, did you know that I don't care?
Glad you're having as much fun as I am.
[ January 03, 2013, 09:18 PM: Message edited by: Shigs ]
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shigs: She can't even make it to the end of a boarding tunnel for a plane. She'll hurt someone eventually.
More of Shigs knowing better about Shanna's medical condition than her doctor. Also further clarification that your current stance is a flat-out lie. You weren't offering rude but potentially helpful advice on what to expect other people to think about her medical condition.
Posted by Shigs (Member # 12864) on :
Oh no, Keesh, please stop, my internetz rep is in agony!
Everyone needs a hobby, but Internet Warrior has always seemed a little boring to me. Happy to see it keeps you entertained, though.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shigs: Hey guys, did you know that I don't care?
are you positive, you don't sound very confident
Posted by Shigs (Member # 12864) on :
Hmmmmmmmmmmm
You raise a good point.
Wait, I'm confused, is that my line?
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Puzzled Observation: Shigs didn't pivot to 'this is all meta-troll tomfoolery' until after his positions were exposed as dishonest and not applying to what Shanna had actually said. Confusion. /Elcor.
Posted by Shigs (Member # 12864) on :
Less meta-trolling, more like having fun responding to an internet warrior and a /b/tard. Curious what Elcor is, though.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
check off 'didn't care' and 'having fun' next we shall move to 'was masterminding all along'
Posted by Shigs (Member # 12864) on :
punctuation is for trolls
Posted by Emreecheek (Member # 12082) on :
I've always theorized that trolls on the internet are trolls in real life.
Shigs has been masterminding his life all along. He actually meant to catch that diabetes thing. So he could LAUGH at all of the people who think he's a troll. Because he's got street cred or something.
Posted by Jake (Member # 206) on :
I think that Shigs is really Morbo.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
*snort*
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote:Originally posted by scholarette: why the assumption that the person will be driving when faint/seizure? Most people's body gives them some warning before doing crazy stuff. When it is rare enough, you may not recognize warning signs but chronic sufferers seem to know pretty well when they are going to have problems.
Because that is what the driving laws are trying to prevent, the possibility of losing control while moving at speed in something that weighs over a ton.
Also, driving can be high stress, and that IS a trigger for many people. Most conditions like this are at a higher risk while driving....not a good combination.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Rakeesh frequents 4Chan!? How could you Rakeesh Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I do? Don't get it *shrug*
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:Originally posted by Aros: an inference that that an incapacitating seizure would provide more impairment than a few glasses of wine.
No, it was an unfounded speculation.
Not so much. A lot goes into BAC, and a guy like me, over 200 lbs, can drink a glass or two of wine and have a lower BAC than someone half my size. And while there IS a lowering of reflex times, regardless of if a person is actually drunk or not, it IS less of a liability than completely passing out or fainting, which is almost by definition a complete loss of consciousness.
Also, you KNOW when you are at risk for being drunk....you've been drinking. You can call a cab, or a friend, or sleep over someones house. You may not know you are going to faint, or have a SZ, until AFTER, so you can't prevent it.
All in all, they aren't the same risk level at all.
As far as Shanna's particular situation......he MD has cleared her, she knows what her triggers are, and her condition is not placing her at risk while driving. So as long as her MD thinks it is fine, why wouldn't it be?
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Belle, paramedics are great for trauma. In a trauma situation, I'd take one over most nurses too. As far as overall medical knowledge though, nurses have a broader base of knowledge, and a good nurse, LPN or RN, can handle a broader base of issues better. Paramedics or nurses, the most significant thing isn't the certification, it's that persons history and specific experience. I dealt with trauma as a medic in the Army, and I know I act as soon as I see an issue. There are nurses that work with me who freeze because they have never worked trauma. But in other nursing situations they are more knowledgeable than I am, and deal with those situations better than I do, at least right now.
I think the medical profession is changing, although too slowly. Nurses are starting to be able to work with protocols as well, and it's a good thing.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kwea: As far as Shanna's particular situation......he MD has cleared her
Which also seems to be the case with Aros' friend.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I know I'd sue the MD's butt off if I was hurt by his friend who still drives.
I also know it depends on what state you live in. Some states wouldn't allow her to drive regardless, and I can't say they are wrong.
About Grand Mal seizures though....usually there is an aura, and you can tell you are about to have one, or at least that you might. Most people would be able to pull over in time.
Most people with SZ disorders are actually driving against MD's orders, and just not tell the state. It's a common issue. In order to be cleared, you have to be SZ clear for about a year (less in some cases, but never less than 6 months), and have an MD clear you.
Shanna's case is a little different, but should be covered under the same laws that govern people with SZ disorders, as the LOC is the issue.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Kwea, thank you for the article. It was an interesting read. I think it makes a good point about the variety of fainting episodes. While I use neurocardiogenic syncope by choice for my chronic condition, its more commonly known as neurally-mediated syncope (or even neurally-mediated hypotension, which I have problems with but that's another story). But its the same verbage as when someone has one, even explainable, faint. When I was taken to the ER after my first episode, no recommendations against driving were made as the doctor put it down to anemia and advised me to use iron supplements. It was alteast three months before I had a follow-up episode and we began to wonder if there was something else going on.
It really just isn't logistical to pull someone's license for six months after a fainting episode. Nearly every doctor and nurse I've run into over the last two years had a story about someone fainting earlier in the day. People who fainted after blood draws or after shots. People who fainted while out in the sun all day or during a stage performance. Most of these are triggers for chronic fainters but should we assume everyone is at risk for a future faint or do we look at that statistics that 50% of the population will have atleast one faint in their lifetime?
Again, it just keeps coming down to the point that it needs to be case-by-case with a doctor's guidance. Even once a chronic fainting disorder had been diagnosed, the variety of conditions is huge. Even myself who has a "fainting" diagnosis, has only lost consciousness once and it was under incredibly out-lying circumstances.
quote: Patients with mild neurally mediated syncope have no restrictions on driving private vehicles and should have a 1 month event-free period before driving commercial vehicles. Mild neurally mediated syncope is characterized by mild symptoms (usually without syncope), occurs with warning, usually occurs only with standing, and occurs infrequently.
Severe neurally mediated syncope is characterized by severe symptoms (usually syncope), occurs without warning, occurs in any position, has no clear precipitating causes or occurs frequently. These patients are allowed to drive private vehicles after 3 months of documented control of the condition and commercial vehicles after they have been symptom free for 6 months.
Untreated patients with severe neurally mediated syncope are completely prohibited from driving.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Wow. It sounds almost as though you have thought this through quite carefully after lengthy consultations with experienced medical professionals over a long period, or something!
Oh, perhaps soon a mysterious new (well, old) posted will appear expressing contempt for people criticize your decision to drive. I wonder what the ratio of 'don't care/not going to stop expressing my opinion' to 'all a schtick don't you people get it' will be!
Posted by Shigs (Member # 12864) on :
Blayne - Rakeesh is our brave warrior. Samp is the /b/tard. Keesh - This crush of yours is cute and all, but are you ever going to ask me out?
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Shigs: Disparaging other posters is not going to be tolerated. Also, you haven't dialed down the hostility one iota. Please stop.
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
That sucks.![[Smile]](smile.gif)