Remember, no book spoilers; I think we can allow some wiggle room on stuff that likely was cut/significantly changed; and answers to questions regarding information that maybe just sorta rely on the book's "POV thought bubbles" that didn't make it to screen.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Thoughts:
Nice to see finally on screen reference to how Tywin feels about Tyrion; everything Tywin did to endear him to me as a stern but loving father and a competant man burned to ashes when I saw his hatred of Tyrion manifest itself in the most cruel means imaginable.
Which begs the question, how the crap does Tywin intend to hand over their families lands and titles if Jamie can't inherit? Merge it with Jeoffry and the Kingship? Pass it to some other relative?
Jeoffry seems smitted with his bethrothed, I also see she's either quite the crafty one who knows how to turn around their terrible reputation or is maybe genuinely kind hearted at heart? Or Both? I'm given to think of the former.
Stannis... Oh my.
Danny Keep shining on! Things are getting interesting there.
Rob, hasn't been openly betrayed yet by the river fort people which I imagine is a matter of time.
The North: Very cold.
Posted by Tittles (Member # 12939) on :
So no book spoilers but Robb hasn't been betrayed by the river people yet, right? lol
Posted by Szymon (Member # 7103) on :
Not a great episode. What I liked was the scene with the little assassin girl, it was really nicely made, the whole ball thing. Khaleese actress is mediocre, though. The second nice scene was Tyrion and his father, both fantastic actors.
Not a great episode in comparison to previous ones, but still an amazing show.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: Which begs the question, how the crap does Tywin intend to hand over their families lands and titles if Jamie can't inherit?
tywin is ruling the seven kingdoms blayne
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tittles: So no book spoilers but Robb hasn't been betrayed by the river people yet, right? lol
I speculated this, I never read the books. So please stop posting guy who think its awesome for people on facebook to be bullied into committing suicide and thinks wishing a painful death by cancer is a great way to go if you don't like someone you never met?-Tittles.txt
quote: tywin is ruling the seven kingdoms blayne
I'm not sure if you understand.
Tywin is not ruling the Seven Kingdoms, he serves at the pleasure of his psychotic and uncontrollable grandson as the Head of Government ("The Hand"), when he dies his titles, his lands, and all of his positions by Cognatic-Agnatic Primogeniture which is what I believe the Lannisters operate under were supposed to go to Jamie.
Jamie cannot because of the law when he became the King's Guard, Cersie cannot legally inherit, so unless I am missing an older Brother "by right" the Lannister demenses are supposed to go to Tyrion.
However Tywin would rather go to hell than allow this, so how does he actually intend to pass the Lannister lands on? He's not going to merge it with Jeoffry because Jeoffry is by law a Barathian and that would mean the end of the Lannister holdings.
So in order to keep the Lannister lands for themselves how? Who does he rather intend to inherit?
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
he can ask (tell) joffrey to let jaime take casterly rock i doubt joffrey will have a problem with it
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
That is not how it works. Jaime will also likely NOT want it either, he did volunteer for the position.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
It's clear from the show (and even more so in the books) that the power of the king is virtually absolute when it comes to the assignment of property and titles. Tradition and law are secondary.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Its still a prerogative Tywin absolutely does not want ceded to the King; its a horrifying prospect to allow the King to meddle with your ancestral holdings, if not now than later. You guys aren't quite really getting how this works for back then.
And again, Jaime will refuse; he cares nothing about administration.
Apparently Tywin has a brother, he can probably have him get it; that solves the issue.
Posted by Tittles (Member # 12939) on :
I don't think that you understand, Blayne, but it's complicated so I'll help you out.
There is no "back then." You see, this is a fantasy series. So it's not actually historic.
Also, in this fantasy series, the King has unlimited power. If he strips someone of power and title, or grants them land, no one else gets to say anything about it.
And Tywin controls Joffrey. So that's that.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
I'm sorry that you feel GRRM is such a hack writer that he would write a world so shallow and uninteresting, that absolutely does not take a single page from the historical context of our own history where apparently all that's required to resolve a complicated dynastic legal issue is for the grandfather of the King through to simply tell the King what to do.
I'm sorry you feel that way and clearly you are not this show's intended audience; maybe there can be some other show you can watch that may appease your sensibilities for drivel.
So please stop posting guy who think its awesome for people on facebook to be bullied into committing suicide and thinks wishing a painful death by cancer is a great way to go if you don't like someone you never met?-Tittles.txt
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
Well that's how it works, and the books especially make it clear that GRRM has decided that kings get to do what kings want to do and the only recourse is revolt, assassination, or blackmail. They also make it clear that child kings in this world by-and-large rubberstamp what their parents/grandparents tell them to do, Joffrey's sadistic acting-out notwithstanding.
I would have to spoil the books (and future TV episodes) to say more than that.
Posted by Tittles (Member # 12939) on :
Couple things -
You can keep asking me not to post, it won't make a difference.
You should pay more attention to the show, the answers are all there, I promise. Because I'm generous I'm not even going to hold you to an apology when you realize that I'm right. I know it'll be there though, in your head. It'll be our secret apology.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by MattP: Well that's how it works, and the books especially make it clear that GRRM has decided that kings get to do what kings want to do and the only recourse is revolt, assassination, or blackmail. They also make it clear that child kings in this world by-and-large rubberstamp what their parents/grandparents tell them to do, Joffrey's sadistic acting-out notwithstanding.
I would have to spoil the books (and future TV episodes) to say more than that.
Not really, because there's a difference between "King's do what they do" and deliberately giving them the precedent of mucking up with your lands and dynasty.
Even if Tywin wanted Jamie to inherit, he has other options that gives Joffry less leverage over him; what Joffry can give, he can take away, if you don't let him have that foot in the door its easier to argue against.
Its politics, there's too much risk and little reward when he can just shove the lands over to his brother.
That and again, Jamie would just refuse because he just wants to keep banging his sister and being in the king's guard is good cover.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
It's kind of hard to argue about the plausibility of potential future events when you know the actual future events. Maybe we need another thread that allows book spoilers.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Maybe, though there's also that likely since Jamie killed Aeyrs Tywin likely views Jamie as dishonorable and clearly unsuited for the task.
Tywin probably expects to simply tell death to eff off.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
Tywin's brother, his daughter (and any future husband of hers should she marry), and his two grandsons are all eligible options for inheritance if Tywin doesn't want it to pass to Tyrion. From what I know of the customs of Westeros, Joffrey would be the direct heir in that situation, but since he is king that could then pass to his brother Tommen, like how Renly Baratheon became lord of the Stormlands when Robert took the throne.
EDIT: I just noticed you did mention Joffrey as an option Tywin would want to avoid, because it would mean the end of House Lannister's control of the Westerlands. I remember GRRM writing in a So Spake Martin once that territories had remained in the same house for so long in Westeros (thousands of years in some cases) because there was a custom that if the land and titles were inherited through the female line, the heir would change their name to the name of the previous holder, thus ensuring the continuity of that house's control.
Obviously that doesn't mean that Joffrey would change his name to Lannister, as the Baratheon claim is the greater one, but that a second son of his might ultimately change to Lannister and inherit the claim, while the elder inherited the royal claim.
[ April 01, 2013, 08:03 PM: Message edited by: jebus202 ]
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
I thought the episode was poor, and a bit boring. But it's hard not to be disappointed by how much it ignores the source material.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: though there's also that likely since Jamie killed Aeyrs Tywin likely views Jamie as dishonorable
Heh. No.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
No kidding. Tywin is far from unhappy about that, or ashamed. He might be if he knew more of the likely reasons Jaime actually did it, though.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
And again, Jaime will refuse; he cares nothing about administration.
You're right about that. But Joeffrey needs Tywin, and if Tywin wanted to break a law to give Jaime Casterly Rock, Joffrey wouldn't give a shit. He would let Tywin do it. Joffrey didn't want Tyrion to be hand, but he (and Cersei) couldn't cross Tywin. He's the one with the army.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Remember if he really wanted to, why not just simply have Jeoffry dismiss Jamie from the guard as soon as he had the oppurtunity to? Instead he's head of the guard.
quote: You're right about that. But Joeffrey needs Tywin, and if Tywin wanted to break a law to give Jaime Casterly Rock, Joffrey wouldn't give a shit. He would let Tywin do it. Joffrey didn't want Tyrion to be hand, but he (and Cersei) couldn't cross Tywin. He's the one with the army.
And Tywin also needs Joffry, as long as Joffry has Jamie he can pressure Tywin; Tywin doesn't have the bargaining power to force Joffry if Joffry doesn't want to, and Tywin isn't going to go against Joffry and jeapardize the realm. He has his brother and that's simpler.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
He never asked to be dismissed, and he's never even been in KL while Joffrey is in power. He skipped town after stabbing Ned.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by umberhulk: He never asked to be dismissed, and he's never even been in KL while Joffrey is in power. He skipped town after stabbing Ned.
Who never asked? Why would Jamie ask? Its Tywin who would need to ask and he hasn't when he had the time to potentially do so.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
Jeoffry wouldn't try to stop him.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
quote:Originally posted by umberhulk: He never asked to be dismissed, and he's never even been in KL while Joffrey is in power. He skipped town after stabbing Ned.
Who never asked? Why would Jamie ask? Its Tywin who would need to ask and he hasn't when he had the time to potentially do so.
it would be both of them asking if Jaime actually wanted to leave (which is the only way for him to inherit anyway)
Posted by Parsimony (Member # 8140) on :
This is all discussed at length in the books, so I have ahard time understanding why we are pretending to speculate when we already know the answers. It seems a fruitless exercise.
I had a friend who didn't want to read the books lest he spoil the show, which is ridiculous. I convinced him to read them, and he thanked me profusely because there is just so much more story and information in the books. Like, whole bookloads of it.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
having read them is a fun advantage to have
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
I prefer not to, I prefer to be surprised as events unfold only rarely do I read ahead; like in JoJo's Bizarre Adventure.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
I started with the show and then read all five books between S2 and S3. I'm glad that I did.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Here's the thing: Tywin has many, many overt and subtle ways to bring Joffrey to heel if the latter decided to become too assertive (and psychotic). Tywin controls the money-the crown is well past broke and is enormously in debt. Tywin controls the Goldcloaks. Tywin controls the Lannister armies, which are the primary military power right now behind the throne. Tywin has decades of reputation of stable governance, good management, good military outcomes, and ruthless long-term vengeance if anyone crosses him. Joffrey has a throne people regard Tywin as having put him on, and a brief reputation as a vengeful little bastard who might also be the spawn of invest.
It's not actually a discussion point in this story, this setting. Whatever the standard, nominal truth might usually be about these political positions, in the story right now Tywin is the power in the Lannister family, not Joffrey or even Cersei. A clear sign of it: when Tywin sent Tyrion to govern as hand, even though both Joffrey and Cersei hated the hell out of him, they didnt contest the appointment. Except eventually with deniable assassination.
Posted by Tittles (Member # 12939) on :
I was hoping Tyrion would be uglier this season. He's still got one nose too many.
Posted by Dan_Frank (Member # 8488) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote: though there's also that likely since Jamie killed Aeyrs Tywin likely views Jamie as dishonorable
Heh. No.
I haven't watched much of the show. It baffles me that Blayne is even entertaining this idea.
Is this a case where the show utterly fails to convey basic character details, like Tywin's explicit approval of Aerys' murder? Or is this a case where Blayne is just missing some stuff the show has shown?
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
It wasn't just that Tywin explicitly approved of it after the fact. The assassination came at the end of the rebellion and was vitally necessary to Tywin's long-term political plans.
It's only an impression, but for my money the show never conveyed that Tywin thought ill of Jaime for the killing-in fact he was more likely to be unhappy with Jaime for not leaving the Kingsguard and joining the family business, as it were.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
Tywin hunted down the Targaryen children and family, right? (although there's one element in what happended that Tywin actually regrets in the books)
and RW
Posted by Tittles (Member # 12939) on :
He gave the orders to the Mountain to make sure no Targaryens remained to take the throne after Aerys. I can't remember how well known this is in general, though. The Prince of Dorne at least suspected.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dan_Frank:
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote: though there's also that likely since Jamie killed Aeyrs Tywin likely views Jamie as dishonorable
Heh. No.
I haven't watched much of the show. It baffles me that Blayne is even entertaining this idea.
Is this a case where the show utterly fails to convey basic character details, like Tywin's explicit approval of Aerys' murder? Or is this a case where Blayne is just missing some stuff the show has shown?
Its more that everyone else in Westeros would view Jaime as dishonorable.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
More than a few people-among the aristocracy-don't care, and their contempt is more or less a shade of political expedience. In any event, Tywin doesn't swim in the same current or think in the same way as most people.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Keep shining on! Things are getting interesting there.