Maybe old news. I found it odd that the devil looked EXACTLY like our president.
Posted by AchillesHeel (Member # 11736) on :
My christian mother watched it, she told me (her vocally atheist son) that it shook her faith in christianity and the bible. "It's all about murder" she said.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
I've been hearing good things about it from my mom. I was somewhat curious in giving it a spin.
Posted by Wussy Actor (Member # 5937) on :
I thought they did a fair job. I am not a theologian or bible historian and can't speak to its historical or biblical accuracy beyond my lay knowledge, but it felt like they were attempting a pretty straight forward relation of story. It rarely felt preachy or manipulative/manipulated (Excepting, of course, the Obama Satan )
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
i like the Obama Satan meme! That makes this miniseries a "can't miss".
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Ahahahahah he does kind of look a lot like Obama
.. Which means that if you put Obama in a creepy hood, he'd make a damn good Sith lord
But all of this is missing the really important question: Jesus remains retconned as totally caucasian, right?
Posted by Wussy Actor (Member # 5937) on :
But of course.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Are they also taking it a step further like the Jehova's Witnesses do, where Jesus not only becomes progressively more lily-white, but is now becoming progressively more and more well-groomed.
eww, long hair? hasn't that layabout read 1 Corinthians 11:14? Get with the times bro, we can't have the savior of humanity looking like not us and more like some homeless dude
NEW jesus: groomed and with much shorter and tidier hair! More importantly an apparently primarily nordic/aryan background
I'm pretty sure "old" Jesus has plenty of blue eyed, blonde representations, so I'm not sure your progression really holds up.
Posted by C3PO the Dragon Slayer (Member # 10416) on :
Question: How do they condense the whole Bible into one miniseries? The David arc alone could fill multiple seasons of a TV series. Do they tell the stories of all the prophets, or just the highlights from Elijah and Elisha? How do they arrange the events of the Gospels, which are sometimes depicted in different orders? And what role is Satan playing, anyway? He doesn't have many speaking roles in the Bible (all I can think of is that time in Job and the temptation of Jesus in the desert, though I admit it has been a while since I read the Old Testament). I can't imagine how they attempt to weave the hundreds of years of history and lore into a coherent narrative befitting a miniseries. I'm assuming they cut out material from books like Ecclesiastes and Song of Solomon.
Now, if they were to just focus on Moses, or Joshua, or the many succinctly-detailed battles in Judges, or David, or Solomon, or Elijah, or Jesus, or Paul, any one of those stories could be a good miniseries on its own. Or have a series depicted to the Ark of the Covenant, and all the epic sagas it played a part in. But from a storytelling perspective, it befuddles me that one would even attempt to cram the whole Bible into one miniseries and claim to represent the whole thing.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Teshi: I'm pretty sure "old" Jesus has plenty of blue eyed, blonde representations, so I'm not sure your progression really holds up.
Blue eyed, blonde, but still a longhaired hippy punk. Totally unacceptable. See, the extremely conservative Witnesses are simply ahead of their peers in the timeless art of making sure that Jesus pretty much continues to look more and more like a localized anglocentric cultural ideal. And, you know, those old dudes presently in the Governing Body — now busy disfellowshipping people for things as trivial as having hair like old Jesus — grew up watching all that stuff you see on Turner Classic Movies with strong male leads like Spartacus, so of course Jesus is going to morph into that.
Give them a few decades and the Watchtower will feature pictures of J.R. Bob Dobbs in a traditional Jerusalem three-piece suit.
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: Are they also taking it a step further like the Jehova's Witnesses do, where Jesus not only becomes progressively more lily-white, but is now becoming progressively more and more well-groomed.
eww, long hair? hasn't that layabout read 1 Corinthians 11:14? Get with the times bro, we can't have the savior of humanity looking like not us and more like some homeless dude
NEW jesus: groomed and with much shorter and tidier hair! More importantly an apparently primarily nordic/aryan background
So where's the time machine you built that let you go back in time to see what old Jesus actually looked like, Samp? I've got some aluminum to sell in the 1840s.
As far as I know, there is no actual scientific method for objectively determining the skin color of people who lived in the middle east 2000 years ago.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
quote:Originally posted by Boris: So where's the time machine you built that let you go back in time to see what old Jesus actually looked like, Samp? I've got some aluminum to sell in the 1840s.
As far as I know, there is no actual scientific method for objectively determining the skin color of people who lived in the middle east 2000 years ago.
No doubt there's plenty of DNA evidence from human remains in the Middle East from around that time. Without actually bothering to Google it, I would GUESS that such DNA would be pretty much exactly the same, in aggregate, as the DNA of modern Middle-Easterners. Since nearly all native Middle Easterners today are fairly olive-skinned and have dark hair and eyes, I think it's safe to say that Jesus probably didn't look like Jim Gaffigan, Conan O'Brien, or anybody else northern-European-looking.
I'm not trying to bust your chops or anything, but I just don't even understand why you would miss that.
Posted by Raymond Arnold (Member # 11712) on :
Shortpacked introduces Historical Jesus Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Boris: As far as I know, there is no actual scientific method for objectively determining the skin color of people who lived in the middle east 2000 years ago.
So, wait. Because there's no way to determine with reasonable scientific scrutiny that his skin color was brown, I shouldn't assert that his skin color was brown?
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
quote:Originally posted by steven:
quote:Originally posted by Boris: So where's the time machine you built that let you go back in time to see what old Jesus actually looked like, Samp? I've got some aluminum to sell in the 1840s.
As far as I know, there is no actual scientific method for objectively determining the skin color of people who lived in the middle east 2000 years ago.
No doubt there's plenty of DNA evidence from human remains in the Middle East from around that time. Without actually bothering to Google it, I would GUESS that such DNA would be pretty much exactly the same, in aggregate, as the DNA of modern Middle-Easterners. Since nearly all native Middle Easterners today are fairly olive-skinned and have dark hair and eyes, I think it's safe to say that Jesus probably didn't look like Jim Gaffigan, Conan O'Brien, or anybody else northern-European-looking.
I'm not trying to bust your chops or anything, but I just don't even understand why you would miss that.
Interestingly enough, I have googled it. And did you know that upwards of 80% of the European Jews (who migrated there about 1000 years ago or so and remained a pretty closed community, choosing not to marry those who were not part of their community ever since) have mitochondrial DNA markers that are prevalent among modern middle easterners, but not modern europeans. Oddly enough, those same European Jews are typically whiter than white (how does Adam Sandler strike you on the white boy scale?).
Further more, it's idiotic to assume that racial traits of modern Middle Eastern dwellers are even remotely similar to those who lived there 2000 years ago given the number of migrations, pilgrimages, wars, and resettlement the area has experienced in that time frame.
When you consider that the DNA markers determining pigmentation exists primarily in skin cells, and skin cells are generally not there any more when we look at the remains of ancient civilizations, yeah...kinda hard to be really objective with that.
I'm not going to say he was white, or brown, or whatever, but saying that he was "Absolutely, definitely, a dirty brown hippy" is just as factually bereft an attitude as saying he was a well groomed Anglo-saxon blonde. Possibly more so, when you realize that the ancient Jews were actually pretty big on hygiene, so the dirty hippy thing is questionable based on historical data.
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:Originally posted by Boris: As far as I know, there is no actual scientific method for objectively determining the skin color of people who lived in the middle east 2000 years ago.
So, wait. Because there's no way to determine with reasonable scientific scrutiny that his skin color was brown, I shouldn't assert that his skin color was brown?
I'm saying your assertion he was absolutely definitely brown is just as stupid as their assertion that he was absolutely definitely white.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I think you might be glossing over the part with the question 'why do they make Jesus look white, instead of what is likely more accurate, something which by our standards wouldn't he considered white?'
Please let's not kid outselves. Jesus hasn't been assigned a WASP look by most of modern Christianity's sects because they said among themselves 'well we can't know for sure'.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Boris:
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:Originally posted by Boris: As far as I know, there is no actual scientific method for objectively determining the skin color of people who lived in the middle east 2000 years ago.
So, wait. Because there's no way to determine with reasonable scientific scrutiny that his skin color was brown, I shouldn't assert that his skin color was brown?
I'm saying your assertion he was absolutely definitely brown is just as stupid as their assertion that he was absolutely definitely white.
The equivalence argument emerges? To you it is a pretty much coin flip chance that he was caucasian, or that it should be treated that way?
quote:Interestingly enough, I have googled it. And did you know that upwards of 80% of the European Jews (who migrated there about 1000 years ago or so and remained a pretty closed community, choosing not to marry those who were not part of their community ever since) have mitochondrial DNA markers that are prevalent among modern middle easterners, but not modern europeans. Oddly enough, those same European Jews are typically whiter than white (how does Adam Sandler strike you on the white boy scale?).
[citation needed]
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
quote: Old jesus: stanky brown hippie
you first.
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: I think you might be glossing over the part with the question 'why do they make Jesus look white, instead of what is likely more accurate, something which by our standards wouldn't he considered white?'
Because artists in general tend to portray Jesus as looking like themselves? You ever heard that little theory before? I mean, Indian representations of Jesus are decidedly Indian, East Asian representations are decidedly mongoloid in appearance, and African representations are often quite black. Representations of Jesus have more to do with the artist than any conscious effort to paint him as an anglo-saxon ideal. This has been the case throughout history. Maybe you should study art a little more. I guess having an artist as a mother allowed me the privilege of learning that when I was freaking 10 years old.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
I am almost done with History Channel. First Ancient Aliens, then The Bible. My students watch this stuff and think it is actually history.
Posted by Tittles (Member # 12939) on :
Biology fact of the day - Skin pigmentation is encoded into the DNA of every diploid cell in your body, not just skin cells! I must have been lucky to have a science teacher to teach me this when I was ten freaking years old.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Boris:
quote: Old jesus: stanky brown hippie
you first.
Ok so you think that that part of my post was not sarcasm even while the rest of it obviously was; that you haven't caught the point of making a sarcastic postulation as part of talking about why white people make jesus look more and more completely anglo-saxon, free of even suntan.
As a jew in that part of the world at that time, from what we know of ethnic migrations (which, yes, we can track; we know very well what the persians and medes were like in terms of ethnicity) I will tell you that he pretty much for sure did not look like "the hess," pretty much for sure didn't have waspy facial features, probably didn't have skin we consider white, and probably was short and had curly hair.
you have inserted into this a specific genetic argument otherwise, that you say you found. Where is it, so that I can read it?
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
Research the Ashkenazi Jews, Samp. I'm a little too busy to redo my research for your benefit </TomDavidson>
"Biology fact of the day - Skin pigmentation is encoded into the DNA of every diploid cell in your body, not just skin cells! I must have been lucky to have a science teacher to teach me this when I was ten freaking years old. "
And we know exactly which markers determine skin pigmentation. Oh wait, no we don't.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
To be fair, images of a white Jesus have existed since the 6th Century. There may be an element of racism that keeps it alive today, but I think it's more to do with how long people have believed that he definitely was white and how cemented that perception has become.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Boris: Research the Ashkenazi Jews, Samp. I'm a little too busy to redo my research for your benefit </TomDavidson>
ok was jesus an ashkenazi jew boris
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
Didn't they come about around 400 years later?
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote:Originally posted by Boris:
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: I think you might be glossing over the part with the question 'why do they make Jesus look white, instead of what is likely more accurate, something which by our standards wouldn't he considered white?'
Because artists in general tend to portray Jesus as looking like themselves? You ever heard that little theory before? I mean, Indian representations of Jesus are decidedly Indian, East Asian representations are decidedly mongoloid in appearance, and African representations are often quite black. Representations of Jesus have more to do with the artist than any conscious effort to paint him as an anglo-saxon ideal. This has been the case throughout history. Maybe you should study art a little more. I guess having an artist as a mother allowed me the privilege of learning that when I was freaking 10 years old.
I taught religious studies for a bit and the kids refused to believe that Jesuses other than White British or *maybe* slightly brown Jesus existed until I showed them pictures gathered from the internet together on a power point presentation, and then they insisted that the White British Jesus was the 'correct' one.
I suspect though it's the kind of idea that they went back to their lives with in their brains, so mission accomplished.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Yes. It goes deeper than a standard reflex to pivot slightly more towards one's own race.
For one thing, it's not (supposedly! Heh) just any old art. If there's this reverence for Jesus, wouldn't it be important to, yknow, be as accurate as possible? Or I guess like so much else in the field, there's a lot of flexibility.
For another thing, even if it WERE just any old branch of art, the implications of not just an unconscious impulse but the actual acting on that impulse to whitewash Jesus...well. It's not like making sure God always looks like a European, with shades of northwestern being the most respectable. Supposedly, the story goes, Jesus was an actual guy who physically walked the Earth and interacted with people. But eh, to hell with all that, let's just make sure he looks like Us and brush aside the whole message of unity and savior-for-everyone bit.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Also, a bit surprised no one mentioned it, but...yeah. Arguing that Jews in Israel over 2000 years ago would have looked like they were from northwestern Europe today because Adam Sandler...well.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :