literally. There were 2 explosions at the finish line of the Boston Marathon. Posted by Tittles (Member # 12939) on :
Looks bad so far. The report I read had witnesses saying people's legs were blown off. That could just be hysteria, I remember on 9/11 sitting in a classroom hearing about how there were five other hijacked planes still in the air, but still.
Here's hoping not too many people got hurt, and that somehow the people responsible get grabbed by a mob and experience some lynch justice.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
They were definitely explosions. They woke us up.
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
Pics floating around on Twitter are pretty horrifying.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
A reporter for the Boston Herald that was running in the Marathon said a leg flew by his face and people rushed to put a tourniquet on the guy using a belt. Sounds like it isn't hysteria, at least not on that count.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
FEMA guy is saying they don't know what caused them.
BPD is saying devices have been found.
Posted by Bella Bee (Member # 7027) on :
They're saying people may have been killed. It's just horrific. I wonder who has caused this.
Posted by Derrell (Member # 6062) on :
2 confirmed dead at least 23 injured
Posted by Bella Bee (Member # 7027) on :
Apparently there were Newtown families standing near the explosion (unhurt), as this race was in honor of the dead children. One massacre was clearly not enough. What is wrong with people?
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
This is not far from my job. I wasn't there because it was closed. I work for the state so I'm kind of SCARED.
Posted by Bella Bee (Member # 7027) on :
Oh Syn, how horrible. I hope everyone you know is ok. Stay safe.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Yeah so it's been ****ing chaos over here. We're likely going to be snagging a zipcar to get our friends back home without having to use the T or any city buses.
Sirens, more sirens, more sirens, controlled demolitions. No way this wasn't an attack. Good job, world.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
There appear to be two other devices that did not detonate, and were disposed of by the bomb squad.
Posted by Darth_Mauve (Member # 4709) on :
I wonder if it has anything to do with it being either Israeli independence day or North Korean Founders day.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Let's not even speculate until we have anything to work on. Right now america is full of middle eastern looking people hoping that this event wasn't orchestrated by brown skinned people, because they know our national habit in regards to events like these.
Posted by Tittles (Member # 12939) on :
I hate the Israeli's as much as the next guy, but why set a bomb off in Boston to protest them?
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Posted this other place, but me and mine are safe, and actually not anywhere near Boston today.
One interesting note, is that today is a state holiday called Patriot's Day, which commemorates the battle's at Lexington and Concord (Paul Revere's ride, shot heard round the world).
Most/all public schools have the week off, and all state offices are closed today. Also with the marathon always on this day, the Red Sox traditionally play an 11AM game so that people at the Sox game can walk over to cheer on the runners, as the marathon course is about 3-5 minutes from Fenway Park.
I can only imagine the pandemonium.
Posted by Tittles (Member # 12939) on :
And surprise surprise, looks like they have a Saudi in custody. Honestly, the place is a desert already. Would that we could just glass the place and be done with it.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Actually, that was refuted.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Damn, Bok, I'd forgotten you lived in Boston. Glad y'all are OK.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Perhaps the more interesting note regarding Patriot's Day is that Waco and Oklahoma City's bombing also happened on Patriot's Day.
BPD is denying they have anyone in custody, though, I've been listening to the police scanner and it appears they are holding someone for questioning.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Rakeesh, yup, life long resident of Eastern MA. I've known a ton of people who have run the race. I've cheered a friend from 1/4-1/2 a mile a way, and walked to the finish line to meet him.
Copley Square (where the finish line is) is a popular location for all sorts of things. I've been in that area more times than I can count.
The marathon is a huge source of pride for the town. I'm imagining ultimately that people outside of Boston will be more traumatized more than the city itself.
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
The VA tech massacre was also on Patriot's day.
Posted by Tittles (Member # 12939) on :
I had heard that the suspect was injured in the blast, and is under guard at a hospital. If it's refuted it's refuted, though.
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bokonon: The marathon is a huge source of pride for the town. I'm imagining ultimately that people outside of Boston will be more traumatized more than the city itself.
I'm supposed to defend my PhD thesis in two days (assuming my fourth committee member can still get into town). I've already gotten an email from a New Hampshire friend who is now not coming into the city due to fear of something else happening. Gee thanks, I live here. Well, okay, I live across the river in Cambridge, close enough that I heard the explosions from my office.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Boston Police refuted it, very specifically.
Definitely horrific injuries, the AP has photos you probably won't see on most news sites.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
They do have a man in custody for questioning, but that's all anyone is saying. No ethnicity disclosed.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tittles: And surprise surprise, looks like they have a Saudi in custody. Honestly, the place is a desert already. Would that we could just glass the place and be done with it.
oh my god, shut up.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
reported
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
I regret being able to say now that I can count myself as having experienced a terror attack. Maybe eventually I get to sleep, too.
There's a few good things to share. One's a quote by Mr. Rogers. One is a moving article by Patton Oswalt. One is the story of Carlos Arredondo. One is the extraordinary amount of help that was so immediately and unquestionably provided by scores of people on scene. There's a few bad things to share. One is Alex Jones calling this a false flag attack. One the New York Post being a pile of garbage that claimed that a Saudi national had been apprehended as a suspect — making sure that we didn't need even a nonfictional initial suspect to get right to our national pasttime of distrusting brown people as a gut response to a bombing (I'm sure glad we have banned user tittles here to take over Lisa's pathologically racist duty in that regard). One is that one of the dead is an eight year old boy. One is that he wasn't the only casualty. One is that there will be very many amputees. One is that we don't want or need to be more scared or paranoid or militant or vengeful or distrustful of already maligned groups, but that things like this can successfully push us in dark directions.
Anyway, like I said, good job, world. Can't wait for a few more days of speculation and rumermongering and politicization and crappy conspiracy theory. Can't wait to get a check in from the shitty fringes on all sides here about whether the culprit is obviously a homegrown tea party extremist, muslim brown people, or literally obama himself to take the heat off of almost having the cover blown on him for benghazi.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Hopefully we'll have at least a week honeymoon before Republicans start saying Obama is soft on terror and that Republicans have a spotless record.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Hopefully we'll have at least a w
The Post DID have a report out that they had a Saudi in custody. That's been refuted, but the Post is a legit source.
Well, it's an established newspaper anyway. One I might not trust as much the next go around, sure. But believing a news report doesn't make me a racist. I'm sorry, do Saudi Arabians not have a history of blowing themselves and various objects up in this country?
The nuke remark wasn't racist either. At the time I believed that Saudis had been behind yet another terrorist attack. (Mistakenly.) If I had been under the impression that, say, France was doing this, I'd say nuke France. Although I'm English, and I'll admit we've got a bad history of being white people who manage the trick of being racist against other white people.
[ April 16, 2013, 06:23 AM: Message edited by: Tittles ]
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
Thinking a lot of thoughts in the wake of this, You know, there is one silver lining to this whole thing. I don't know what point someone was trying to make doing it, but if their goal was actually killing people, they did a really lousy job. The finish line of the Boston Marathon has to be one of the most impractical places to try to kill a bunch of people. Three dead is an appallingly small number given the severity of the injuries and amputations. But, to blow up a bomb half a block from a MEDICAL TENT full of doctors, with people already on hand to shift folks to the world's best hospitals.
The finish line is already a place where once people pass it, they are diverted away to make room for the other 10,000 still coming. As for chaos, many of the other streets that aren't the marathon are completely blocked off, leaving evacuees lots of places to go on foot. Last year I had a lot of fun tooling around my bike in the middle of roads that I would normally be dodging a LOT of cars and busses. The marathon has volunteers stationed at every mile and all the (ahem, legitimate) runners have tracking devices.
I don't know, I just don't see there being a better-prepared place for handling a terrorist attack before or since. Not that it's an invitation to try again or harder, but the really great organizational effort put in by the BAA every year has resulted in people losing more limbs than lives.
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tittles: The Post DID have a report out that they had a Saudi in custody. That's been refuted, but the Post is a legit source.
Well, it's an established newspaper anyway. One I might not trust as much the next go around, sure. But believing a news report doesn't make me a racist. I'm sorry, do Saudi Arabians not have a history of blowing themselves and various objects up in this country?
The nuke remark wasn't racist either. At the time I believed that Saudis had been behind yet another terrorist attack. (Mistakenly.) If I had been under the impression that, say, France was doing this, I'd say nuke France. Although I'm English, and I'll admit we've got a bad history of being white people who manage the trick of being racist against other white people.
Tittles. The difference is that if a group of French people did it, if would be highly unlikely that "France" did it. Your monkey brain would automatically distinguish between the French terrorists that guy that comes up to you on the street next week and says "Excusez-moi, monsieur, where is ze tube. I need to go take more photos of Picadilly circus?"
However, even if those responsible were Saudi Arabian, "Saudi Arabia" didn't do it, nor did Islam. So when you respond to a bombing that killed 3 people, by suggesting someone kill an entire country, it's just a little bit out of line. I am interested in the people who did it. Nothing more and nothing less.
Posted by Tittles (Member # 12939) on :
Nah, I'm not buying it.
The people in these Arabian peninsula countries import Western dollars and export oil and suicide bombers. The rich finance terrorists, and the idle middle class young men like to blow themselves and others up. The region might have a fine history, might have had decent cultures in the past, but their culture now is foul and rotten. They make cartoons for children that teach them that the genocide of another people is needed. They treat their women like animals. I'd like to see one of you marry your sister to one of them, see him slap a burkha on her.
I don't dislike the Iranians or the Iraqis. Just the people creating this culture, which exists almost entirely on the Arabian peninsula. If anything, the Iraqis should hate the Saudis as much or more then we do. Those poor bastards were the ones that got tarred with the Saudi brush.
Nuking them was hyperbolic on my part, but man do I wish that we could standard bomb the living hell out of them. Give them a little Russian justice. You hear about any Chechnyans raising a ruckus lately?
But we can't. Because they have oil.
Want to know when that part of the world is going to learn to keep it's suicide bombers to itself? When we break our energy dependence on oil. I have a feeling the world will get a lot less tolerant right around then.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Yeah, you're totes not racist, bro. It's so obvious with all your talk of 'them' and how all of 'their' cultures are rotten and wouldn't it be nice if we could just kill them.
Certainly not racist talk, and anyone who thinks so the problem is with *them*. The problem, of course, is that if we just 'glassed' Saudi Arabia we'd be, y'know, killing far far far more of the pold schlubs-and those poor women, remember, that you're so concerned with-who have boots on their necks than we would ever be of the real movers and shakers.
And yeah, let's be more like Russia. Good plan. Weren't you just whining about how evil and oppressive Thatcher was elsewhere? One might almost begin to think your entire Hatrack persona is a great big pile of bunk.
Posted by Tittles (Member # 12939) on :
I never said I was super concerned about their women, I just mentioned how they treated theirs as an example of how their culture is inferior. And invited one of you to send a sister to live there if you disagreed. But was there anything in my post that you actually disagreed with, or are you making another post all about me?
I disliked Thatcher because of what she did to my country. Home policy versus foreign policy. I believe that if a specific region of the world sends people to kill people in my country, then my country should send people to kill them back. In increasing numbers, until it works. I'm not apologizing for that. Make sure you bookmark this so you can warn people about me. Posted by Darth_Mauve (Member # 4709) on :
You also realize, what I forgot to mention in my "who done it" post, that yesterday was also tax day. The IRS being the number one enemy of the Wacko Militia-men-minded Home Grown terrorists, it is likely that some well-beyond-Tea-Party offshoot might have done it.
Of course if its some group of bitter white men holed up in the Ozark mountains, no one is suggesting we nuke Arkansas.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
quote:Originally posted by Darth_Mauve: [QB] You also realize, what I forgot to mention in my "who done it" post, that yesterday was also tax day. The IRS being the number one enemy of the Wacko Militia-men-minded Home Grown terrorists, it is likely that some well-beyond-Tea-Party offshoot might have done it.
I'd bet my next paycheck it's a Muslim, or more likely a group of Muslims. The crazy militia dudes generally don't attack Northeast targets. The Muslims, OTOH, seem to attack Northeast targets pretty much exclusively.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Yeah, no you wouldn't. Or if you would, well, that would be deeply foolish. I'd be surprised if you knew much of anything about the 'crazy militia dudes', anyway. There are so many possible alignments here. It was tax day. It was North Korea Founders Day. It was Patriot's Day. Families and victims (or was it just families?) of Sandy Hook were there. I've heard but am not sure if the date was somehow significant in Israeli or Jewish history. The marathon is also an icon of internationalism, and runners from nearly a hundred countries were participating. The explosives were apparently made of modified pressure cookers, and it's fortunate given the other possibilities that they were pretty poorly made or designed to kill very few.
How many Islamic terrorist attacks on 'the Northeast' do you think there have been over the past decade, with respect to all other Islamic terrorist activity worldwide to say nothing of terrorist activity in general?
I'm not convinced this was an act of terrorism, or at least not as it's usually thought of. If it was, they weren't very experienced terrorists at all, thankfully. Pressure cookers with timers and backpacks, three dead in a dense crowd of hundreds doesn't spell 'network' or 'group' to me at all, but it's very early and I wouldn't be at all surprised to be wrong about that.
Posted by Marek (Member # 5404) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tittles: And surprise surprise, looks like they have a Saudi in custody. Honestly, the place is a desert already. Would that we could just glass the place and be done with it.
This very off topic, and I really do not agree with the sentiments, but on a technical note, would nuking a desert, any desert, turn the landscape to glass?
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
Some portion of the area directly under the explosion would turn to glass but no, not the whole landscape or even a large portion of it.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Yeah, no you wouldn't. Or if you would, well, that would be deeply foolish. I'd be surprised if you knew much of anything about the 'crazy militia dudes', anyway. There are so many possible alignments here. It was tax day. It was North Korea Founders Day. It was Patriot's Day. Families and victims (or was it just families?) of Sandy Hook were there. I've heard but am not sure if the date was somehow significant in Israeli or Jewish history. The marathon is also an icon of internationalism, and runners from nearly a hundred countries were participating. The explosives were apparently made of modified pressure cookers, and it's fortunate given the other possibilities that they were pretty poorly made or designed to kill very few.
How many Islamic terrorist attacks on 'the Northeast' do you think there have been over the past decade, with respect to all other Islamic terrorist activity worldwide to say nothing of terrorist activity in general?
I'm going to remind you of this post when somebody named Muhammad gets indicted. ROFL
But as far as your second paragraph there, a better statistical set would be "how many terrorist attacks in the Northeast have been Muslim in origin, over the last x years?".
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by steven: I'd bet my next paycheck it's a Muslim, or more likely a group of Muslims. The crazy militia dudes generally don't attack Northeast targets. The Muslims, OTOH, seem to attack Northeast targets pretty much exclusively.
If you actually gambled paychecks (you don't) you'd be an excellent whale.
Jose Padilla was in Ohio. Reynolds was targeting a pipeline and a gas facility in Wyoming. Narseal Batiste and his crew were targeting the Sears Tower. Hosam Maher Husein Smadi was targeting a building in Dallas. Sami Osmakac was targeting the Tampa area. Mark Anthony Grady was targeting the Wainwright building. The Abdul Farouk Abdulmutallab incident was above Detroit. The entire 2005 bomb plot was California.
etc etc etc
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:Originally posted by steven: I'd bet my next paycheck it's a Muslim, or more likely a group of Muslims. The crazy militia dudes generally don't attack Northeast targets. The Muslims, OTOH, seem to attack Northeast targets pretty much exclusively.
If you actually gambled paychecks (you don't) you'd be an excellent whale.
Jose Padilla was in Ohio. Reynolds was targeting a pipeline and a gas facility in Wyoming. Narseal Batiste and his crew were targeting the Sears Tower. Hosam Maher Husein Smadi was targeting a building in Dallas. Sami Osmakac was targeting the Tampa area. Mark Anthony Grady was targeting the Wainwright building. The Abdul Farouk Abdulmutallab incident was above Detroit. The entire 2005 bomb plot was California.
etc etc etc
Allow me to amend that. Successful attacks.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Excellent! An even better way to be a whale. Use a data set so constrained as to be near useless for predictive power.
Do you know where the only successful 'Muslim attack' occurred in the united states since 9/11?
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: FEMA guy is saying they don't know what caused them.
BPD is saying devices have been found.
Media reaction has not been comforting. Feels like right wingers are almost enjoying it- in a we-all-understand-we-shouldn't-enjoy-this kind of way. But then, most of the media has that reaction when something like this- a tragedy that isn't a full blown national emergency happens.
Literally the first thing I saw this morning when I got up (we're 6 hours ahead so I missed it yesterday) was Bill O'Reilly's mug on Digg or somewhere saying: "IEDs were used... which is what are used in IRAQ and AFGHANISTAN."
This is like saying: "Bombs were used... which is what the Nazi's used."
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: Excellent! An even better way to be a whale. Use a data set so constrained as to be near useless for predictive power.
Do you know where the only successful 'Muslim attack' occurred in the united states since 9/11?
Why are we constraining it to "since 9/11"? Is that as far back as you can remember? Weren't you still in grade school then?
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Because 9/11 was the last qualifying incident of "a successful terrorist attack on the northeast region of America done by a Muslim person or group."
Again, I ask you: Do you know where the only successful 'Muslim attack' occurred in the united states since 9/11?
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
Tittles:
quote: I don't dislike the Iranians or the Iraqis. Just the people creating this culture, which exists almost entirely on the Arabian peninsula.
What I really really like about this sentence is that it lumps together a Sunni majority, Arabic speaking nation, and a Farsi speaking Sunni majority nation, and refers to their general location as being on the Arabian peninsula, where in fact on part of one of those countries is located, and which is majority Shia Muslim.
Just for perspective, Tittles, this is the cultural and geographical equivalent of the sentence:
"I don't dislike the English or Scottish. Just the people creating this culture, which exists almost entirely on the Iberian Peninsula."
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by steven:
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: Excellent! An even better way to be a whale. Use a data set so constrained as to be near useless for predictive power.
Do you know where the only successful 'Muslim attack' occurred in the united states since 9/11?
Why are we constraining it to "since 9/11"? Is that as far back as you can remember? Weren't you still in grade school then?
Like me, I believe he was in high school. Since then he, like me, has become an adult member of society, measured by his conduct, and not by his relative age- except by people like you who, who think reminding someone of his youth will sting because you're insecure about your age.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro:
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: FEMA guy is saying they don't know what caused them.
BPD is saying devices have been found.
Media reaction has not been comforting. Feels like right wingers are almost enjoying it- in a we-all-understand-we-shouldn't-enjoy-this kind of way. But then, most of the media has that reaction when something like this- a tragedy that isn't a full blown national emergency happens.
Literally the first thing I saw this morning when I got up (we're 6 hours ahead so I missed it yesterday) was Bill O'Reilly's mug on Digg or somewhere saying: "IEDs were used... which is what are used in IRAQ and AFGHANISTAN."
This is like saying: "Bombs were used... which is what the Nazi's used."
Yeah the IED thing occurred to me too. How did homemade bombs become IEDs became ONLY IN THE MIDDLE EAST?
Have people forgotten that a molotov cocktail is an IED? Pipe bombs are IEDs? Any home made bomb that has gone off in America was an IED? How that acronym has become synonymous exclusively with the Middle East has really made using it domestically problematic.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Okay, enough time has passed that I'll skip right to the endpoints.
Cutting the data points down to only successful attacks is even dumber than the original "I bet it was a Muslim terror attack because it happened in the northeast", because it cuts you down to three data points and they're not all in the northeast. Why, 100% of identifiable successful Islamic terror attacks on the country have migrated out of the northeast since 9/11! Let's bet that on account of that limited data set that it is definitely NOT an islamic terror attack because it happened in the northeast AND it succeeded, ergo etc
This terror attack isn't even really much of a ringer for Islamic terrorism. A crude hotpot with some nails. It's already an even worse bet by now because no group has claimed responsibility for it; usually the taliban or various remnants of AQ and other extremist islamic fundamentalist groups are pretty quick to crow about this.
It honestly, given the bombs used and the targeting of a sports event, has more in common with attacks we have on record from low rent skinheads and far right loonies. The Spokane MLK parade in 2011, or the Eric Rudolph bombing.
If you absolutely had to put money up on this, like, absolutely had to, the "smart" money would be on a homegrown loner, white male.
But there is no "smart money" in this event because this is exactly the sort of wild speculative period which makes for a really stupid bet. If I guessed homegrown loner white male and won, I'd be lucky, but dumb for having made the bet in the first place.
It's a measure of faith in you (of sorts, anyway) that I immediately called the whole 'I'd bet my next paycheck' thing as something that was obviously a puffed-up lie; if you would actually bet your whole paycheck on a bet like that, you'd be a very dumb person and a whale.
Posted by Tittles (Member # 12939) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: Tittles:
quote: I don't dislike the Iranians or the Iraqis. Just the people creating this culture, which exists almost entirely on the Arabian peninsula.
What I really really like about this sentence is that it lumps together a Sunni majority, Arabic speaking nation, and a Farsi speaking Sunni majority nation, and refers to their general location as being on the Arabian peninsula, where in fact on part of one of those countries is located, and which is majority Shia Muslim.
Just for perspective, Tittles, this is the cultural and geographical equivalent of the sentence:
"I don't dislike the English or Scottish. Just the people creating this culture, which exists almost entirely on the Iberian Peninsula."
I think there was a misunderstanding. I'm not lumping Iraq and Iran in with the culture that I detest. I knew many people's response would be "hur hur lookit dah racist hating brown people and Arabs" so I attempted to get ahead of it.
What I meant was that I have nothing against the countries not on the Arabian peninsula, that are part of this culture. Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Oman.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:I think there was a misunderstanding. I'm not lumping Iraq and Iran in with the culture that I detest. I knew many people's response would be "hur hur lookit dah racist hating brown people and Arabs" so I attempted to get ahead of it.
You'll need to move more quickly, then.
Posted by Tittles (Member # 12939) on :
Oh yes, I know you always have your eye on me, Rakeesh. Keep on fighting the good fight.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tittles: I hate the Israeli's as much as the next guy, but why set a bomb off in Boston to protest them?
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote: The person questioned in the hospital was a Saudi national, who was reportedly tackled and held by a bystander after he was seen running from near the scene of the explosion, said a law enforcement source who spoke with someone involved in the FBI’s investigation.
The Saudi man, believed to be a university student in Boston, is cooperating with the FBI and told agents that he was not involved in the explosions, and that he ran only because he was frightened. Investigators did not characterize the man as a suspect. No one had been arrested or charged by late Monday night.
Also, seems that the Chinese student is within a friend of a friend distance on Facebook. Yikes.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I look forward to mentioning this story to a coworker who, shall we say, shares a Steven or Tittles outlook on terrorism and for whom this story as it was initially reported-*Saudi in custody!!!*-was the subject for much pontification.
Incidentally, Steven, I know you won't complain if I ask you, "Have you answered Samprimary's question yet?" You know, the one that went into detail at some length pointing out how foolish your bet would have been, if it weren't just obvious trash-talking?
Posted by Darth_Mauve (Member # 4709) on :
On a different note, I am a performer. I do magic and Santa and other simple kids parties (not an Actor or a famous headliner--just a low level kids performer).
Two months ago I was contacted by a retirement home I work with on occasion. They wanted me to dress up as Paul Revere for a reading of the Longfellow poem. I would mime the action as the director read the poem.
The date set for the reading was 4/16--yesterday. They were celebrating Patriot's Day on that day.
What was going to be a silly, lowly attended bumblestump of a poetry reading took on a deeper, more important feel after the events on Monday.
The costume I created, out of this and that and thrift store discards was worn with pride and power. The audience packed the hall in Red, White, and Blue outfits.
There is a point in the poem where they talk of those who Revere awoke that night, who would not live to reach their beds again the next night, and a room full of Americans looked over at a chair where an empty uniform lay folded, and tears began to form.
I can not come to Boston to help those injured. I can not help find the cowards and fools who did this terrible thing. I can Donate blood, and Donate money. Yesterday as I rode a stick horse around a cardboard crafted Old North Chuch of Boston I felt as if I might actually be donating something else--to those few in that room I was helping provide whatever is the opposite of the fear, panic and terror those cowards had thought to create.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
The reason I still doubt it's a right-wing crazy is that I've never heard of those guys attacking the Northeast. OTOH, Muslim crazies seem to love that area. Time will tell, though. I doubt such an inexperienced bomb-maker was all that careful about covering his tracks, and the FBI doesn't like to let terrorists get away, especially now.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Darth Mauve, thanks for sharing that. It was quite moving.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by steven: The reason I still doubt it's a right-wing crazy is that I've never heard of those guys attacking the Northeast. OTOH, Muslim crazies seem to love that area. Time will tell, though. I doubt such an inexperienced bomb-maker was all that careful about covering his tracks, and the FBI doesn't like to let terrorists get away, especially now.
As others have pointed out, there is far too little data to make the conclusion that Muslim crazies are more likely than right wing crazies to attack in the northeast. You are doing the equivalent of drawing a straight line through one data point.
If there is anything we should have learned from the violence of the past decade, it is the wisdom of waiting until the evidence is in before jumping to conclusions.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
An arrest has been made.
ETA: Correction, CNN is retracting. But it appears they are pursing some strong leads based on video evidence.
[ April 17, 2013, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: Lyrhawn ]
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
What did I just say about jumping to conclusions.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
I'm holed up essentially ignoring all major newsmedia, because it's such a clownwreck after events like these. The NYPost has already demonstrated why it should be wiped from the earth.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Well, to be fair, the Post demonstrated that ages ago. It always amazes me when people cite it as if it were more reputable than, say, the National Enquirer. Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
They had already demonstrated to what extent they were completely worthless as a news organization. Now we know they're way less than worthless. In this event they actually proved that they have the amazingly disproportionate capacity to poison and damage news reporting during a crisis. TWELVE DEAD. SAUDI NATIONAL ARRESTED AS SUSPECT.
wamp wamp
gonna take a page from the warhammer crazies and call for Exterminatus.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:Now we know they're way less than worthless.
I figured their reporting on the whole Occupy Wall Street thing gave that away a while back. They hated having to walk past those protesters when going out for lattes, you could tell.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
it's appropriate that one of the heroes of this whole mess has been an Occupy protester, and they're [the nypost] one of the badguys in this whole mess.
[ April 17, 2013, 06:28 PM: Message edited by: Samprimary ]
Posted by capaxinfiniti (Member # 12181) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:Now we know they're way less than worthless.
I figured their reporting on the whole Occupy Wall Street thing gave that away a while back. They hated having to walk past those protesters when going out for lattes, you could tell.
More like hated waiting behind the occupy protesters who were getting their lattes. But it is first come first serve and when you have nothing else to do...
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I see capaxinfiniti has someone read the Post to him occasionally.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by capaxinfiniti: More like hated waiting behind the occupy protesters who were getting their lattes. But it is first come first serve and when you have nothing else to do...
Bless your heart, you're going to even indirectly stand up for the NYPost today. You're very charitable.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
It's ridiculous that we have to avoid the news after a major catastrophe because we know they're going to get so much of it wrong.
News in the 21st Century: Twice the information, half the actual news.
Posted by capaxinfiniti (Member # 12181) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:Originally posted by capaxinfiniti: More like hated waiting behind the occupy protesters who were getting their lattes. But it is first come first serve and when you have nothing else to do...
you're going to even indirectly stand up for the NYPost today.
No. It's clear I'm not standing up for the Post, directly or indirectly. But I was making a statement about the occupy movement.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
They essentially work on the principle of "Doesn't matter, got clicks." Get the stories out that say that twelve died, or that it was adam lanza. Or was it ryan lanza? Whatever, get it out there, it'll be the linked article and we win even if it's a missed shot from the hip.
Posted by Parkour (Member # 12078) on :
quote:Originally posted by capaxinfiniti: No. It's clear I'm not standing up for the Post, directly or indirectly. But I was making a statement about the occupy movement.
You're adorable.
Breaking news from the Capax Informer: occupy protesters do nothing, drink lattes.
Posted by capaxinfiniti (Member # 12181) on :
quote:Originally posted by Parkour:
quote:Originally posted by capaxinfiniti: No. It's clear I'm not standing up for the Post, directly or indirectly. But I was making a statement about the occupy movement.
You're adorable.
Thank you
I was hoping you'd post, Parkour. Others are so predictable in their replies that it takes away from the amusement. Not the case with you. I never know when I'll get to enjoy a little patronizing quip from you so I relish them when they come.
Posted by Parkour (Member # 12078) on :
good.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by capaxinfiniti: No. It's clear I'm not standing up for the Post, directly or indirectly.
Because clarity of intent is magic, I assume.
Anyway. New York Post is a bunch of clowns, you're kind of a clown too, moving back to the bombing.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:I was hoping you'd post, Parkour. Others are so predictable in their replies that it takes away from the amusement. Not the case with you. I never know when I'll get to enjoy a little patronizing quip from you so I relish them when they come.
Given your participation in this thread, are you really going to criticize Parkour for a 'patronizing quip'? Seriously, man.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Anyway in lieu of having much else productive to say regarding the investigation into this horrible crime (because right now all we have is armchair internet detectivery) here are some words by someone who is not a clown and who gets right to the heart of something that's really, really wrong here. I have entertained the silly side of the speculation or steven's willingness to 'bet his whole paycheck' that it's going to be a muslim, or the "oh I'm so completely unsurprised" coming from bigoted racists in the wake of hearing a saudi national was in custody, because it confirmed their preconceived notions about what profile the bomber was going to be. This is stupid in a way which terrorizes entire ethnic groups and practitioners of multiple religions here in the states.
quote:A twenty-year-old man who had been watching the Boston Marathon had his body torn into by the force of a bomb. He wasn’t alone; a hundred and seventy-six people were injured and three were killed. But he was the only one who, while in the hospital being treated for his wounds, had his apartment searched in “a startling show of force,” as his fellow-tenants described it to the Boston Herald, with a “phalanx” of officers and agents and two K9 units. He was the one whose belongings were carried out in paper bags as his neighbors watched; whose roommate, also a student, was questioned for five hours (“I was scared”) before coming out to say that he didn’t think his friend was someone who’d plant a bomb—that he was a nice guy who liked sports. “Let me go to school, dude,” the roommate said later in the day, covering his face with his hands and almost crying, as a Fox News producer followed him and asked him, again and again, if he was sure he hadn’t been living with a killer.
Why the search, the interrogation, the dogs, the bomb squad, and the injured man’s name tweeted out, attached to the word “suspect”? After the bombs went off, people were running in every direction—so was the young man. Many, like him, were hurt badly; many of them were saved by the unflinching kindness of strangers, who carried them or stopped the bleeding with their own hands and improvised tourniquets. “Exhausted runners who kept running to the nearest hospital to give blood,” President Obama said. “They helped one another, consoled one another,” Carmen Ortiz, the U.S. Attorney for Massachusetts, said. In the midst of that, according to a CBS News report, a bystander saw the young man running, badly hurt, rushed to him, and then “tackled” him, bringing him down. People thought he looked suspicious.
What made them suspect him? He was running—so was everyone. The police reportedly thought he smelled like explosives; his wounds might have suggested why. He said something about thinking there would be a second bomb—as there was, and often is, to target responders. If that was the reason he gave for running, it was a sensible one. He asked if anyone was dead—a question people were screaming. And he was from Saudi Arabia, which is around where the logic stops. Was it just the way he looked, or did he, in the chaos, maybe call for God with a name that someone found strange?
What happened next didn’t take long. “Investigators have a suspect—a Saudi Arabian national—in the horrific Boston Marathon bombings, The Post has learned.” That’s the New York Post, which went on to cite Fox News. The “Saudi suspect”—still faceless—suddenly gave anxieties a form. He was said to be in custody; or maybe his hospital bed was being guarded. The Boston police, who weren’t saying much of anything, disputed the report—sort of. “Honestly, I don’t know where they’re getting their information from, but it didn’t come from us,” a police spokesman told TPM. But were they talking to someone? Maybe. “Person of interest” became a phrase of both avoidance and insinuation. On the Atlas Shrugs Web site, there was a note that his name in Arabic meant “sword.” At an evening press conference, Ed Davis, the police commissioner, said that no suspect was in custody. But that was about when the dogs were in the apartment building in Revere—an inquiry that was seized on by some as, if not an indictment, at least a vindication of their suspicions.
“There must be enough evidence to keep him there,” Andrew Napolitano said on “Fox and Friends”—“there” being the hospital. “They must be learning information which is of a suspicious nature,” Steve Doocy interjected. “If he was clearly innocent, would they have been able to search his house?”
Yeah, read all of that.
Posted by Tittles (Member # 12939) on :
The guy who tackled the student is a racist. That's going to be an awkward story for his grandkids.
The cops, eh, maybe racist, maybe just too gung-ho to be seen doing something and racing off on the very first tip they got.
Looks like the Post is indeed trash, and I won't be taking them seriously anymore. I can admit when I'm wrong.
I still hate the sharia law countries though. Their current culture is just incompatible with ours.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:I still hate the sharia law countries though. Their current culture is just incompatible with ours.
Not entirely! Elements of such cultures advocate the wholesale slaughter of rival nations, too.
Posted by Tittles (Member # 12939) on :
Yes. They teach their children that the Holocaust was just a good start, and they treat their women like dogs. Their young men set off bombs to intentionally kill as many civilians as possible, along with themselves if necessary. And their older men finance those plans.
There's nothing wrong with these nations. We just need to be more understanding, is all. We can all just be respectful "rivals."
Just so, Rakeesh.
Posted by Darth_Mauve (Member # 4709) on :
Yes, they all do this. Every single Muslim in those countries forced into Shariah Law do all these terrible things. There are no Saudi's who actually love their wives and daughters, no Iranians who are beaten for laughing when their President says the Holocaust was a lie, no Jews in Pakistan. And it is a miracle that they are a threat to the US, because every single young man is or has strapped a bomb to themselves and blown up. Once the old men finally die off they should run out of ammo relatively soon.
Its so simple when we can point to a place and say, "There be Evil people." Main of them point to Israel and make stupid claims about Zionist Evil. Why can't we do the same? Wipe them all out.
Basically, the problem isn't Racism. Its Religious Intolerance. The guy was not singled out as the terrorist because of the color of his skin, but because of the way he worships God.
Decrying the way he was treated, then responding with more religious intolerance, is just....petty.
I don't like petty.
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
Transcript Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
You know, I really hate the platitude "they picked the wrong city." I mean, yeah, I know it's an empty platitude, but that's why it annoys me. I mean, what would the right city have been? If the terrorists had bombed, say, El Paso, would its citizens have just shrugged and said, "Yeah, well, that happens?"
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
Sacramento, California, is my only response to that question.
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
FBI news conference is starting momentarily.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: You know, I really hate the platitude "they picked the wrong city." I mean, yeah, I know it's an empty platitude, but that's why it annoys me. I mean, what would the right city have been? If the terrorists had bombed, say, El Paso, would its citizens have just shrugged and said, "Yeah, well, that happens?"
I get your point, but it was an empty platitude that those particular folks needed to hear. It spoke to the resolve of their particular community. Even if the logical follow-through to that is weird.
Posted by Tittles (Member # 12939) on :
quote:Originally posted by Darth_Mauve: Yes, they all do this. Every single Muslim in those countries forced into Shariah Law do all these terrible things. There are no Saudi's who actually love their wives and daughters, no Iranians who are beaten for laughing when their President says the Holocaust was a lie, no Jews in Pakistan. And it is a miracle that they are a threat to the US, because every single young man is or has strapped a bomb to themselves and blown up. Once the old men finally die off they should run out of ammo relatively soon.
Its so simple when we can point to a place and say, "There be Evil people." Main of them point to Israel and make stupid claims about Zionist Evil. Why can't we do the same? Wipe them all out.
Basically, the problem isn't Racism. Its Religious Intolerance. The guy was not singled out as the terrorist because of the color of his skin, but because of the way he worships God.
Decrying the way he was treated, then responding with more religious intolerance, is just....petty.
I don't like petty.
Hmm, where to begin. Well, first off, it's not religious intolerance. I don't care about these Muslims being Muslim. We have Muslims in Western countries and they manage to act civilized just fine, for the most part. Once again, it's their culture.
There are likely genuine saints in these countries, just like there were likely genuine saints living in WW2 era Japan and Germany. But hey, maybe we should have just let Germany have Europe. After all, the Germans were capable of showing human kindness and affection, and even Hitler loved his cousin and his dog. Bombing them was obviously wrong, because some of them helped out the Jews or kept them hidden in the attic.
I have no doubt there are people in these countries who love their women. Guess what? I love my dog, too. I feed, play with, and provide for him and correct him if he acts too familiar with guests. Love isn't the issue here. It's how they show their love, and how they express their displeasure and hatred.
"I love my wife, this is why I make sure she wears a burkha and never leaves the house alone. I love my wife, which is why I make sure she's never put in a position to udo something a woman can't possibly do, such as drive a car. I love my wife, which is why I made sure we stoned her to death as quickly and painlessly as possible when she got raped."
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
The image from the back is new, taken by a redditor and posted online shortly after he sent it to the FBI Moments ago.
[ April 18, 2013, 06:06 PM: Message edited by: James Tiberius Kirk ]
Posted by DDDaysh (Member # 9499) on :
In El Paso - maybe so.
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: You know, I really hate the platitude "they picked the wrong city." I mean, yeah, I know it's an empty platitude, but that's why it annoys me. I mean, what would the right city have been? If the terrorists had bombed, say, El Paso, would its citizens have just shrugged and said, "Yeah, well, that happens?"
Posted by Anthonie (Member # 884) on :
quote:Originally posted by James Tiberius Kirk: Video of suspects:
Different two kids. The NYPost found images online yesterday and published them this morning, claiming they got them from law enforcement. The video and images I linked above are from the FBI press conference today.
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
Something serious is happening in Watertown right now.
Apparently two police shot, one killed. Suspects shooting and throwing explosives (per local news).
[ April 19, 2013, 01:13 AM: Message edited by: James Tiberius Kirk ]
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Shooting and throwing explosives? I don't see anything like that online.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by Anthonie: Looks like those in the video are not the culprits. Link from USA Today
Yikes! That is wrecklessly irresponsible of the NYPost. Could anyone honestly believe it's a coincidence that the NYpost incorrectly accused a Muslim for the second time. The blatant racism alone disgusts me, but what's even worse is their using the tragedy to incite more fear and hatred of Islam.
One of my students, who was from India, was severely beaten for "looking Arabic" after 9/11. If you know the history of terrorism in India, then you understand the full irony of that. Why are so many American's incapable of empathy with anyone outside their own ethnic group or national borders?
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Shooting and throwing explosives? I don't see anything like that online.
It was on the police scanner several minutes ago.
Posted by Anthonie (Member # 884) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:Originally posted by Anthonie: Looks like those in the video are not the culprits. Link from USA Today
Yikes! That is wrecklessly irresponsible of the NYPost. Could anyone honestly believe it's a coincidence that the NYpost incorrectly accused a Muslim for the second time. The blatant racism alone disgusts me, but what's even worse is their using the tragedy to incite more fear and hatred of Islam.
One of my students, who was from India, was severely beaten for "looking Arabic" after 9/11. If you know the history of terrorism in India, then you understand the full irony of that. Why are so many American's incapable of empathy with anyone outside their own ethnic group or national borders?
I was wrong. JTK's link was to video released by the FBI at a press conference, not the NYPost stuff. I mixed the two up. Sorry about that confusion.
Posted by Anthonie (Member # 884) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Shooting and throwing explosives? I don't see anything like that online.
What the hell is going on in Boston? Those updates are indicating a (controlled?) explosion and a bomb team sweeping through cars to clear "multiple devices."
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
Short summary: around 10:30pm an MIT officer was killed, responding to a robbery.
Around 12:30 there was carjacking of a black Mercedes by two men, near the Shell Gas Station on Memorial Drive. They kidnapped/hostaged a third individual. This car was later sighted in Watertown.
The police apparently caught up with the black Mercedes and were fired upon. That's when we heard them yelling about explosives/grenades and over the scanner.
Reporters (ABC5) caught up with the police, heard rapid gunfire and explosions. They state they could smell gunfire. They could hear officers over the radio saying that they were being shot at.
There was one individual on the ground being held at gunpoint. Photos of this individual on the ground have been circulated online. This individual is, I believe the one in custody. Apparently there is a second individual who is not in custody.
There are a number of bags/boxes in the area that the police think may be bombs. They have evacuated the surrounding area and are performing controlled explosions.
It's not immediately clear as to whether or not this is actually related to Monday's events.
This is roughly transcribed from the anchors recounting of the situation on WCVB-TV moments ago. And I've gotta say - listening to all of that as it happened was insane.
edit: there is, in fact, a tape of the gunfight in Watertown. WCVB is airing it, and when it comes online I'll try to post it assuming it's actually related.
[ April 19, 2013, 02:15 AM: Message edited by: James Tiberius Kirk ]
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
By the way, I feel like I'm watching the old media die tonight. CNN is literally hours behind.
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
News Conference from the Colonel of the Mass State Police right now, begins with recap:
10:30p: Robbery at 7-11 MIT Security shot afterward Carjacking, pursuit to Watertown Exchange of gunfire, explosives deployed by suspects. MBTA officer struck during gun battle and was transported. Suspect 1 - black hat - struck during gun battle and "accounted for" Suspect 2 - white cap - got away. 7-11 provided video footage of Suspect 2. Armed and dangerous. Door to door search of Watertown happening now. Do not open your doors. Do not pick up any hitchhikers.
Posted by Sa'eed (Member # 12368) on :
SUSPECT APPREHENDED. He had an explosive on his chest that blew up upon apprehension.
The other one was shot dead.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Crazy.
Do you have a link to listen to some of the BPD radio feed from earlier? I'm morbidly curious to hear it as it went down. I've heard snippets, and it sounds like an episode of something on TV.
Posted by Sa'eed (Member # 12368) on :
It appears that the first suspect had an explosive on his person that exploded when was being transported. Not sure, hard to keep up with all this police jargon.
Police just cautioned that the second suspect might have the same thing.
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
I believe that they said the first suspect may have had an explosive on his chest when apprehended. Second one still at large.
I'll try to find a tape for you Lyr. There are something close to 100K listeners, so someone must have recorded it. It was the most riveting thing I've heard in a long time.
Media is reporting that there are potential bombs all over Watertown right now, and police are asking people to STAY AWAY from anything that looks suspicious. It is suspected that they were on MIT's campus to plant a device.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Is anyone else struck by how terrible the mainstream media have been during the last 72 hours?
During the actual Marathon bombings, they reported a ton of stuff that wasn't true and they didn't bother to confirm. In the last few hours, they've proven hopelessly behind the curve.
Reddit seems to be crushing them.
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
Package in MIT Dormatory.
NBC is reporting that they may have "foreign military training."
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
That sounds like wild speculation unless they've actually gotten their names and found actual information on them.
On the other hand, given what's happened in the last couple hours, this isn't their first rodeo.
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
Also remember that foreign training does not does not mean "acting on the orders of a foreign state."
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
The first image that popped into my head was a training camp in the desert. "Foreign military training" means anything these days.
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
MBTA and MIT are shut down today.
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
Media reporting that the suspects are Chechnyan, have been in the USA <= 1 year, legal residents of the USA.
Not what I expected.
*
People are waking up, and it's hard to find a recap, so I'm reposting mine:
At 10:30p there was a call for an armed robbery at at 7-11.
Soon afterward, an MIT Police Officer was ambushed and killed.
Around 12:30a: There was a carjacking of a black Mercedes SUV which was pursued to Watertown. The suspects confessed to the driver that they were the bombers.
The car was caught, and there was a gunfight.. Explosives and grenades were deployed by suspects from the window of a moving car.
An MBTA officer was struck during gun battle and was transported.
Suspect 1 - black hat - struck during the above gun battle. He was brought to the hospital with both gun and blast shrapnel wounds to his torso, experienced a cardiac arrest, and could not be resuscitated. Some reports state that he was run over by a police vehicle as well.
Suspect 2, white cap, is on the loose. He is known to be Chechnyan. He is armed and dangerous. A door to door search of Watertown is happening now, and residents are warned not to open doors and not to pick up hitchhikers. The MBTA is shut down by order of the governor. All vehicular traffic into and out of Watertown has been halted. MIT is closed, Northwestern U is [allegedly] closed.
[ April 19, 2013, 07:09 AM: Message edited by: James Tiberius Kirk ]
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
Suspect 2 is Dzhokhar (ZO-KAR) Tsarnaev, aged 19, of Cambridge MA, Chechnyan by birth.
Suspect 1 was his brother.
Both have legal permanent residency status.
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
I'm just glad that these are the same guys. I went to sleep after the first of MANY texts MIT sent out warning of the shooter and woke of to a see of messages. Still have no idea what happened.
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
I also want to say that Cambridge is a place chock full of foreigners who only want to kill people by making them too much tasty food.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Can't go anywhere or do anything today. I get to hear gunshots and explosions, horray.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
:siren:Current Status::siren:: White Hat is still at large
Summary: (All Times are EDT) - Thursday before 10:20pm A 7-11 in Cambridge is robbed by the men believed to be the Boston Marathon bombing suspects. - 10:20pm An MIT police officer, Sean Collier, 26, was shot and killed while sitting in his squad car, responding to a report of disturbance in Cambridge. - 11:30pm An armed carjacking by two men took place in the area of Third Street in Cambridge. The victim was held in the car for approximately a half hour - 12:00am The carjacking victim was released at a gas station on Memorial Drive in Cambridge. He was not injured. Police immediately began searching for the vehicle involved. - 1:00am Officers from several agencies were involved in a pursuit into Watertown. Gunshots and explosions were heard in the area of Dexter and Laurel streets in Watertown. Explosive devices were reportedly thrown from car by the suspects. The suspects and police also exchanged gunfire in the area of Dexter and Laurel streets. An MBTA police officer was shot and seriously injured during the pursuit. - One of two Boston Marathon bombing suspects was injured and captured. - Suspect 2 supposedly ran over his brother while escaping. - 1:35am The injured Boston Marathon Bombing suspect died at the hospital. - 2:00am The FBI released new photos of the suspect who remained on the run. - 8:40am Suspect possibly pinned down in home - 9:30am Law enforcement still clearing area around possible suspects location - 10:00am White hat still at large, no word as of yet if the surrounded home is where he might be at
- The bombers had automatic weapons, grenades, explosives - One of the bombers (The tall one) was shot multiple times - Supposedly detonated an explosive device on himself, was pronounced DOA at Beth Israel - Suspect 1 Confirmed to have had a triggering device - Suspect 2 from the FBI photos confirmed to have fled on foot
- At some point they managed to steal a State Police truck
- Massive manhunt is ensuing - A perimeter has been set up around the area where he is believed to be - The search continues
Reporter waving in front of camera means "take me live I got shit going on here" CNN.gif
-
via marux at sa who's keeping this all updated
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
The more information that comes out, the more confused I get. Historically, the United States has supported the Muslims in the areas around the old Soviet Union. We helped free them from Milosevic, and have always demanded that Russia show restraint with Chechnya. Has the Obama administration done anything to change that policy?
I am also slamming my head on my desk at the republicans online calling these guys leftist commies because they were educated in Massachusetts, when by definition devout Muslims would be right wing conservatives that hate communism more than we did.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Stephan: when by definition devout Muslims would be right wing conservatives that hate communism more than we did.
I don't think that follows.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Just a quick snippet but Pres. Obama said of the people of Boston,
"The people of Boston will not submit."
Gosh, I sure hope one of the oldest cities in the United States with a population of millions doesn't collectively allow themselves to be yoked by two men. I call New York if it's really that easy.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
quote:Originally posted by dkw:
quote:Originally posted by Stephan: when by definition devout Muslims would be right wing conservatives that hate communism more than we did.
I don't think that follows.
Which part?
Conservative -
Adjective Holding to traditional attitudes and values and cautious about change or innovation, typically in politics or religion. Noun A person who is averse to change and holds to traditional values and attitudes, typically in politics.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
1) Devout does not by definition mean conservative.
2) Religiously conservative does not necessarily mean financially right-of-center.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Stephan: Historically, the United States has supported the Muslims in the areas around the old Soviet Union. We helped free them from Milosevic, and have always demanded that Russia show restraint with Chechnya.
This sounds tragic for everyone really. If you want the drone war to be pulled back, then nope. If you're Muslim-American, bad news. Tragic for the victims, especially the international ones like Lu Lingzhi that were just "there" and were unlikely to have been targets.
The only silver lining I can see is that maybe some heat will be redirected away from brown people in general since these two were white and we've had an incident in Canada with four Muslim terrorists, one of whom was a Korean convert and one was a white Greek European convert.
Posted by SenojRetep (Member # 8614) on :
The MIT police officer was killed literally steps from my former school office. Over the past eight years, I've stood on that corner hundreds of times, although seldom at 10:45 at night.
Based on the various news articles I've read, it seems unlikely that the men are linked to more organized, radicalized al-Qaeda allied Chechen separatists. Rather, it seems like they were inspired by remote viewing of Chechen-separatist and Jihadist propaganda, but acted alone. This is consistent with the fact that their bombs were quite amateurish. So more like the London Underground Bombings than 9-11 or the Bali nightclub bombing.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by James Tiberius Kirk: Also remember that foreign training does not does not mean "acting on the orders of a foreign state."
Heck, if not for my bad eyes, I'd have foreign military training: To wit, the Norwegian army would have conscripted me. From what my friends tell me, I might have been better trained at broom-pushing and boot-polishing than, you know, actual weapons; but hey! Training is training!
Posted by SenojRetep (Member # 8614) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mucus: The United States has also been blowing up Muslims in the areas around the old Soviet Union for a good ten years now and counting. The entirety of their adult lives have been concurrent with the current "war on terror."
But these men were radicalized due to Chechen nationalism, not due to Wahhabist or Qutbist ideology or Afghani, Pakistani or Iraqi nationalism. The jihadist links from their various social networking sites don't seem to be about striking out against the US for its wars, its drones or anything else. They were mostly about the Chechen struggle.
Personally, I think their motivation was much less rational. They were probably feeling frustrated and powerless, personally and socially. The violent sermons of radical clerics gave focus to that frustration, glorifying (abstractly) the idea of jihad. If they'd lived in Chechnya, they would have struck out against the halls of power in Moscow. If they'd lived in England, they would have bombed London. In Syria, they'd have joined the fight against al-Assad. My point being, it doesn't seem like they, or others who seem to have felt similarly, are trying to strike at the US due to a perception of anti-Muslim political policies. Rather, they're lashing out from their sense of dislocation and disaffection in a way that helps them feel powerful, by attacking whatever powerful interests they can.
<edit>That's not to say there aren't terrorists who are primarily motivated by the reasons Mucus has cited, or that such reasons played no role in the antipathy the Tsarnaevs felt (and almost certainly played a role in the anger felt by the radical clerics to whom they listened). Just that, based off the information I see, it seems like this could have happened anywhere conservative Muslims are living in a secular society.</edit>
[ April 19, 2013, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: SenojRetep ]
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Peter, you have no idea what their motives are. Everything is pure speculation at this point. We have no idea if they are angry about Chechen nationalism, or religious fundamentalism or what. They could have been radicalized on a visit overseas, they could have been radicalized right here in America, or they might not have been radicalized at all. Pure conjecture.
As far as Stephen goes, if by "devout" you mean "radically conservative" in the way that we tend to think of Muslim extremists, then yes, they would be on the extreme right of the political spectrum, not the left.
quote:From Mucus: The only silver lining I can see is that maybe some heat will be redirected away from brown people in general since these two were white and we've had an incident in Canada with four Muslim terrorists, one of whom was a Korean convert and one was a white Greek European convert.
I think your hopes are misplaced. I was talking to my mom today and the first thing she asked me was "Are they foreigners? They look like foreigners to me." I tried to explain that they were about as Caucasian as you can get by the literal definition of the word, so they're white, but it didn't really sink in. It just goes to show that our ethnic definitions are as fluid today as they were 100 years ago. It remains to be seen, but somehow I doubt this will enter the zeitgeist as white guys committing violence. Either they will be viewed as ethnic foreigners, or they won't be racially categorized at all, they'll be religiously identified, and people will automatically associate Muslim with Brown.
Posted by SenojRetep (Member # 8614) on :
Lyr-
I don't think it's fair to say we have *no* idea, but I agree the question of motivation is still very uncertain. I tried to appropriately hedge by saying things like 'based on the information I've seen'. That said, we do know what YouTube videos Tamerlan was linking to from his VK account, and they're not the sort of videos that would suggest he was angry in any specific way about American militarism. I think Andrew Sullivan gets it mostly right here:
quote:In many ways, this is enough to explain a huge amount. Why does someone do something like hold up a 7-11? What’s the point of all this? America has not occupied Chechnya. Chechnyan terrorists have targeted Russia in the past almost exclusively. The point of this is that you can be liberated into violence by the Apocalypse.
A little lost in modernity; finding meaning in the most extreme forms of religion; in many ways assimilated by the West but finding new ways to feel deeply, internally alienated by it: this is a classic profile of an Internet Jihadist.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
quote:Originally posted by SenojRetep: [QUOTE] Personally, I think their motivation was much less rational. They were probably feeling frustrated and powerless, personally and socially. The violent sermons of radical clerics gave focus to that frustration, glorifying (abstractly) the idea of jihad. If they'd lived in Chechnya, they would have struck out against the halls of power in Moscow. If they'd lived in England, they would have bombed London. In Syria, they'd have joined the fight against al-Assad.
Sounds like you're right to me.
Posted by SenojRetep (Member # 8614) on :
New round of gunfire, plus explosions. The news reporting suggests Johar is pinned down, likely injured, in a backyard in Watertown.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
pinned in a boat in Watertown. sounds like he wants burial at sea.
i want him taken alive.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
He's pinned down on a boat which is parked in the driveway of a house surrounded by dozens of police and FBI. They've tossed a couple flashbangs at him. Choppers with thermal in the air report he is moving, and thus alive, though they think he is injured.
They're moving assets into place and discussing attack plans. It doesn't seem likely he's getting away.
Posted by SenojRetep (Member # 8614) on :
Another round of gunfire about five minutes ago. No more reports of movement. Helicopters have left the immediate area. It seems like he's either given up or he's dead.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Not gunfire, flashbangs.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Lryhawn: What can I say, I'm an optimistic. But on the other hand....
quote: Oliver Cooper (@OliverCooper) tweeted at 7:14 PM on Fri, Apr 19, 2013: The Czech ambassador to the US had to issue a statement explaining his country is not Chechnya. God bless America. http://t.co/3kLpBKJ4Bt (https://twitter.com/OliverCooper/status/325387030970376192)
Posted by SenojRetep (Member # 8614) on :
Johar is in custody, but seems to have lost quite a bit of blood. Taken away in an ambulance.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
I really hope he survives. I'd like to know what they thought they were accomplishing.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Agreed.
I'm starting to think it was a big brother took little brother along for a ride situation. His brother was wearing a suicide vest, wanted to go down fighting. Little brother ran away, ran over his brother's body, and hid in a boat all day, then gave himself up at the end, no explosives found on him. Doesn't sound like they were on the same page, though, to get him to do what they did, he had to at least be on board to some degree.
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
My friends and I are so happy that they took him alive. In addition to the whys and hows, it's the best chance we have of making sure that there aren't any more people involved with the bombings and murders.
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Agreed.
I'm starting to think it was a big brother took little brother along for a ride situation. His brother was wearing a suicide vest, wanted to go down fighting. Little brother ran away, ran over his brother's body, and hid in a boat all day, then gave himself up at the end, no explosives found on him. Doesn't sound like they were on the same page, though, to get him to do what they did, he had to at least be on board to some degree.
Sounds like a criminal dyad: Hickock/Smith, Muhammad/Malvo, or Harris/Klebold.
Posted by Tittles (Member # 12939) on :
Eh, I would have been happier if he could have "accidentally" been burned alive or something on that boat.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
The police had every chance to shoot him in a way that wouldn't have been questioned, and were at pains on the radio to hold their fire at every step of the way.
A dead suspect might make you feel better, but a living one can actually give you answers.
Posted by Tittles (Member # 12939) on :
(Post Removed by JanitorBlade)
[ April 20, 2013, 01:11 AM: Message edited by: JanitorBlade ]
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
(Post Removed by JanitorBlade)
[ April 20, 2013, 01:11 AM: Message edited by: JanitorBlade ]
Posted by Tittles (Member # 12939) on :
(Post Removed by JanitorBlade)
[ April 20, 2013, 01:10 AM: Message edited by: JanitorBlade ]
Posted by Tittles (Member # 12939) on :
Besides, I already said that questioning him and then letting him be violently assaulted and killed in prison works too.
Posted by Tittles (Member # 12939) on :
Now hold on, I can see why the personal attack posts were deleted, but why was mine directly before that also deleted?
Posted by JanitorBlade (Member # 12343) on :
Profanity.
Posted by Tittles (Member # 12939) on :
So Blayne and Sam can type s**t whenever they want, but I can't type a*****e when it's not referring to another poster? Good to know.
Anyway, what was so double standardly deleted was me saying ;
Sometimes crazy people are just crazy, and even though that explanation isn't satisfying, sometimes that's just all there is. What are we really expecting this guy to tell us, anyway? The police are going to be up the a*****e of anyone who he so much as said hi to as he passed them by on the street. If someone else was working with him, they'll know.
But overall, on the very small chance that he does have worthwhile information, I'm perfectly content with questioning him and then turning him over to some patriots in a prison for a few sessions of rape, followed by a brutal shanking death.
Posted by Tuukka (Member # 12124) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tittles: So Blayne and Sam can type s**t whenever they want, but I can't type a*****e when it's not referring to another poster? Good to know.
Anyway, what was so double standardly deleted was me saying ;
Sometimes crazy people are just crazy, and even though that explanation isn't satisfying, sometimes that's just all there is. What are we really expecting this guy to tell us, anyway? The police are going to be up the a*****e of anyone who he so much as said hi to as he passed them by on the street. If someone else was working with him, they'll know.
But overall, on the very small chance that he does have worthwhile information, I'm perfectly content with questioning him and then turning him over to some patriots in a prison for a few sessions of rape, followed by a brutal shanking death.
Death would have made him a martyr for some.
And regardless, a bullet to the head would have caused him 1/8 second of suffering. Which is much less than he's going to go through now.
The guy who blew himself up got it easy. How long did he suffer? Yeah - A fraction of a second. And he turned himself into a martyr, so he won, at least in his own head.
It's good to think these things in long-term.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tuukka: Death would have made him a martyr for some.
No one of any significance or value. Let's keep it real--the US isn't responsible for the problems in Chechnya, period. If anything, if Russia or China were the focus of crazy-person Muslim rage, they'd be way more ass-kicky than the US has been.
I don't know why the Muslims don't get that. Compared to the other world-dominating possibilities, the US is far less of an evil empire. Perfect? Noooo. Better than Russia, China, or Germany-if-they-had-won? Yeah. Way better.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Tittles:
quote:So Blayne and Sam can type s**t whenever they want, but I can't type a*****e when it's not referring to another poster? Good to know.
No, they can't. I've edited numerous posts by Blayne, and Sam isn't typically one to type either of those words. If you had said it just the once I might have let it slide, but when it's used repeatedly, that's beyond the threshold for me.
Posted by Destineer (Member # 821) on :
I like how the Boston bombing suspects were chucking bombs at the police. I really respect how consistent these guys are in their choice of weaponry.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:But overall, on the very small chance that he does have worthwhile information, I'm perfectly content with questioning him and then turning him over to some patriots in a prison for a few sessions of rape, followed by a brutal shanking death.
You have zero informed knowledge of what the actual chances might be, and there's nothing quite so brave and virtuous as embracing prison rape as a tool of justice, as though it weren't a sign of shameful negligence on our part and a sign of just what a moral infant you are that it's a matter for joking and bloodlust. Aren't you supposedly so ground down by life that you're just marking time until you kill yourself, if we're to take your transparent lying seriously? Makes it odd to think then that you'd care about this story.
It's better that he was taken alive, for a variety of reasons, and people like yourself who substitute a sadistic lust for torture for virtues such as justice and patriotism are contemptible.
Posted by Tuukka (Member # 12124) on :
Also, the fact that he embraces the existence of rape culture in prisons, and even prison killings, tells about deep level of moral corruption.
The rape culture in particular is a real problem, and often the victims are simply kids who got caught with pot. The prison rapists don't choose the most evil people to rape, instead they are more likely to choose the most vulnerable to rape.
I don't see why that would be a cause for celebration.
Posted by Tarrsk (Member # 332) on :
Speaking as a Boston resident who lives and works less than two miles from the site of the bombings, and who spent 24 hours in lockdown quietly freaking out, I'm glad they captured the suspect alive, and I want him given the full benefit of living in a society governed by the law. We are not murderers. We are not torturers. We believe in justice and we will see it done properly.
Wishing death or horrors upon him serves no purpose. We, Boston, are better than that.
Posted by Tittles (Member # 12939) on :
Yeah, that's right Rakeesh, keep defending that terrorist.
Tuuka, have you seen pictures of this guy? Lol, he's going to be a victim in prison.
It's not like we're brails not certain on this guy's guilt. He murdered at least four people and injured over a hundred more. Limbs blown off, the whole bit. He's deserving of brutal pain followed by death, not a lifetime of free room and board. Just walk him in with the other animals, let them know who he is, and then have the guards turn their backs. Or just set the boat on fire and televised it so Boston could party to that. Easy peasy.
But of course that won't happen. Small consolation is that they'll have to throw him in solitary ford to keep him from the other inmates. Few years of that to a young man, maybe he'll get to be a lunatic.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Just want to remind you guys: Tittles is an odious troll. We already know that. Reprehensible jerk is reprehensible.
Posted by Tittles (Member # 12939) on :
Yawn. Latter part is correct, but as I've said all along, I'm just being me, which ain't trolling.
Posted by Tittles (Member # 12939) on :
Double post, but I'll use it to point out that I don't think most trolls would stick around for four months and a hundred and fifty odd posts when the only person who's ever remotely acted like he was trolled was Keesh. And that's just because he's convinced he has to defeat the awful troll.
And we'll see who's lying and who's not in the end. (In response to Tom below.)
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Nah. You're playing a character. Which is why you're so profoundly unhappy; there are few things more pathetic than that sort of internal dissonance.
Posted by Tittles (Member # 12939) on :
eta Damnit. Triple post.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
Whether you're purposely trolling or are actually just an unfailingly disagreeable person doesn't really make much difference in a practical sense when it comes to how other people will or should interact with you.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Destineer: I like how the Boston bombing suspects were chucking bombs at the police. I really respect how consistent these guys are in their choice of weaponry.
Yeah, but at some point it just makes them look like a Megaman or other cartoon villain.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Nah. You're playing a character.
Something I've discovered. When reading any thread Tittles is posting in, imagine him talking as Jaime Lannister, then imagine the what ever person he's conversing with, be it who ever, as Brienne. It's funny.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
quote:Originally posted by umberhulk:
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Nah. You're playing a character.
Something I've discovered. When reading any thread Tittles is posting in, imagine him talking as Jaime Lannister, then imagine the what ever person he's conversing with, be it who ever, as Brienne. It's funny.
Tittles is more of a Daenerys Targaryen voice to me.
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Crazy.
Do you have a link to listen to some of the BPD radio feed from earlier? I'm morbidly curious to hear it as it went down. I've heard snippets, and it sounds like an episode of something on TV.
I'm willing to be Daenerys so long as I can play with myself.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tittles: I'm willing to be Daenerys so long as I can play with myself.
Dude, I found that kind of creepy.
Posted by Tittles (Member # 12939) on :
She's a good looking broad, wouldn't you?
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
I have no idea what it would be like to be a woman, but certainly I don't get turned on by my own appearance NOW. Why would it be different if I were the opposite gender?
And you're killing me with the creepy, mmkay?
Posted by Tittles (Member # 12939) on :
Well I'm assuming in our hypothetical that I was originally actually me and only became Daenerys at some point in my life.
Posted by Destineer (Member # 821) on :
Can I just say, the whole "shut down Boston" response was so cowardly and disproportional. And wasteful, think about the amount of wealth that must have been destroyed by a major US city closing up all operations. Seriously, three whole people died and this is our response?
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
quote: Menino defended the decision to ask Boston residents to remain in their homes and not venture onto streets on Friday, because of the potential threat of more violence and the ongoing manhunt for Dzhokhar.
“I had information that there was other things going on during the [time the] decision that was made,” he said. “At that time, we found a pipe bomb in another location in our city of Boston, another individual was taken into custody in another location.’’ He did not elaborate on the discovery of the other pipe bomb.
Boston was just as shut down for the blizzard two months ago. Monetary fines were to be opposed on anyone on the road. I don't recall seeing threat of arrest if we left our homes. Sure, I missed a day of work, and my lost filling isn't getting fixed for another three weeks. But I'm a lot happier than I was Thursday night.
If the people of Boston wanted to make it hard for the police to enforce a lockdown of the city, they could have. But people didn't. They wanted to catch this guy, and were willing to do what was asked of them.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Destineer: Can I just say, the whole "shut down Boston" response was so cowardly and disproportional. And wasteful, think about the amount of wealth that must have been destroyed by a major US city closing up all operations. Seriously, three whole people died and this is our response?
I disagree. First of all, it wasn't just about the manhunt. There was a real, serious threat to public safety once they realized there could be (and were) bombs planted in other locations.
Plus, the city was NOT on lockdown after the Marathon until Friday after a massive gun battle took place and one of them was armed, dangerous, and on the run. At that point they decided it was safer for people and better for police that people stay in their homes. In other words, they didn't put the city on lockdown immediately to try to find them, they only did it after that huge battle Thursday night. Maybe hindsight won't prove it the best decision but I think it's a fair one.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
When boston got shut down for the blizzard, it was a hell of a lot closer to OMG MARTIAL LAW than the voluntary civilian advisory that went out during the manhunt. And that was for heavy snowfall, which I admit I find somewhat less dangerous overall than partly cloudy with a chance of isolated bullet showers and followup bombings by the same suspects.
Posted by stilesbn (Member # 11809) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: When boston got shut down for the blizzard, it was a hell of a lot closer to OMG MARTIAL LAW than the voluntary civilian advisory that went out during the manhunt. And that was for heavy snowfall, which I admit I find somewhat less dangerous overall than partly cloudy with a chance of isolated bullet showers and followup bombings by the same suspects.
I'd say the danger of isolated bullet showers and bombings is more scary than a blizzard but not necessarily more dangerous when you're talking about millions of people.
On the aggregate I would think the blizzard has more chance to cause harm fatalities through car crashes and what not.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:I'd say the danger of isolated bullet showers and bombings is more scary than a blizzard but not necessarily more dangerous when you're talking about millions of people.
I wouldn't be surprised if a blizzard in Boston didn't kill at least two or three people, actually.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Yeah and afaik the only fatalities during Nemo were I think still car related. Like, carbon monoxide poisonings and stuff
Posted by Destineer (Member # 821) on :
I'm not saying it was martial law or anything, I'm saying it was a dumb overreaction. I could see doing the same thing if there was an actual very serious threat.
As one article I read pointed out, they didn't shut down LA when Christopher Dorner was on the loose.
Posted by Tittles (Member # 12939) on :
There are no problems with homeless people freezing to death? In Arizona we get a few homeless dead of heat exhaustion every summer.
Posted by Tittles (Member # 12939) on :
Well in the Dorner case he was only trying to kill cops and their families. The most he did to anyone else was carjacking. Not quite the same thing.
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
The LAPD killed two innocent people hunting Dorner. The Boston police and all their associated friends killed zero innocent civilians.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Destineer: I'm not saying it was martial law or anything, I'm saying it was a dumb overreaction. I could see doing the same thing if there was an actual very serious threat.
As one article I read pointed out, they didn't shut down LA when Christopher Dorner was on the loose.
Boston's response is in no way a dumb overreaction in comparison to the LAPD's manhunt for Dorner. We're straightforwardly comparing the LAPD's response versus a scenario in which they asked for people to stay inside around the area in which a terrorist bomber potentially wired with a suicide bomber vest indeed was hidden, and caught the dude without, you know, shooting up trucks full of old ladies and stuff.
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
My mother was one of the hundreds (thousands?) who abandoned their cars on the interstate during the Blizzard of 1978. It was pretty lousy experience, walking to the nearest house of people you knew, being miles away from home. Unless you've heard similar stories, or lived through being caught in a once-in-a-generation level bad storm, I don't think people understand how smart of a decision it was to shut down the road.
Without doing the math the cost of shutting down the city is much less than the (potential) cost to the government of towing a similar number of cars off the interstate, having people go fetch them a week later, delaying clearing of the roads because crews have to work around cars, and the numerous car accidents which would would additionally tax busy first responders who can't respond as fast. Shutting down the city was saving the taxpayers millions of dollars.
You think you can drive in those conditions? You think your work is so important? I've got news. You aren't that talented, and unless you are working for hospital, police or fire, it's really not that important. Also, your hard-nosed boss can't call you a pansy for not wanting to be stupid in the snow because, whoops it's illegal for everyone. No temptation to open businesses.
Posted by Tittles (Member # 12939) on :
(Tittles was banned not as a result of this post, but for trolling behavior in general.)
[ April 22, 2013, 01:18 PM: Message edited by: JanitorBlade ]
Posted by SenojRetep (Member # 8614) on :
quote:Originally posted by SenojRetep:
quote:Originally posted by Mucus: The United States has also been blowing up Muslims in the areas around the old Soviet Union for a good ten years now and counting. The entirety of their adult lives have been concurrent with the current "war on terror."
But these men were radicalized due to Chechen nationalism, not due to Wahhabist or Qutbist ideology or Afghani, Pakistani or Iraqi nationalism. The jihadist links from their various social networking sites don't seem to be about striking out against the US for its wars, its drones or anything else. They were mostly about the Chechen struggle.
Personally, I think their motivation was much less rational. They were probably feeling frustrated and powerless, personally and socially. The violent sermons of radical clerics gave focus to that frustration, glorifying (abstractly) the idea of jihad. If they'd lived in Chechnya, they would have struck out against the halls of power in Moscow. If they'd lived in England, they would have bombed London. In Syria, they'd have joined the fight against al-Assad. My point being, it doesn't seem like they, or others who seem to have felt similarly, are trying to strike at the US due to a perception of anti-Muslim political policies. Rather, they're lashing out from their sense of dislocation and disaffection in a way that helps them feel powerful, by attacking whatever powerful interests they can.
<edit>That's not to say there aren't terrorists who are primarily motivated by the reasons Mucus has cited, or that such reasons played no role in the antipathy the Tsarnaevs felt (and almost certainly played a role in the anger felt by the radical clerics to whom they listened). Just that, based off the information I see, it seems like this could have happened anywhere conservative Muslims are living in a secular society.</edit>
Just to have some accountability, according to 'a US official familiar with the interviews', Johar claims that the US wars in Iraq and Afghanistan played a significant role in his and his brother's motivation. The article makes no mention of Chechen identity as a motivating factor in the attacks. The official further states that the attacks do not appear to have been directed by any foreign organization, but that the brothers were "self-radicalized" as a result of viewing jihadist material on internet sites.
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
Let's also just ignore that probably most of the casualties of the Iraq/Afghanistan wars were caused by Muslims killing *other Muslims* and not American soldiers wreaking wanton senseless destruction on unsuspecting civilians.
I say probably because no one decided to take the time to determine who caused what deaths. Because blaming it all on the US is a *much* more appealing narrative when you want to brain wash an entire generation into thinking the US is *entirely deserving of every terrorist act enacted upon it*. I suppose the Jihadis are right. We're all evil people who deserve to die violently and without concern for age, gender, creed, or social standing.
Seriously...why the hell are you guys trying to come up with *excuses* for a couple of mass murderers? Are you *that* disappointed that it wasn't some far right wing-nut?
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
quote:Originally posted by Boris: not American soldiers wreaking wanton senseless destruction on unsuspecting civilians.
quote:Originally posted by Boris: Let's also just ignore that probably most of the casualties of the Iraq/Afghanistan wars were caused by Muslims killing *other Muslims* and not American soldiers wreaking wanton senseless destruction on unsuspecting civilians.
I say probably because no one decided to take the time to determine who caused what deaths. Because blaming it all on the US is a *much* more appealing narrative when you want to brain wash an entire generation into thinking the US is *entirely deserving of every terrorist act enacted upon it*. I suppose the Jihadis are right. We're all evil people who deserve to die violently and without concern for age, gender, creed, or social standing.
Seriously...why the hell are you guys trying to come up with *excuses* for a couple of mass murderers? Are you *that* disappointed that it wasn't some far right wing-nut?
Personally, I'm not interested in coming up with excuses. In the text I quoted I told Mucus that I thought, based on social network evidence, that the motivation for radicalization was much more likely to come from the situation in Chechnya, than from the US's foreign policy. I was just pointing out that, according to an anonymous source's account of Johar's comments, and taking those comments at face value, that isn't the case.
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
quote:Originally posted by theamazeeaz:
quote:Originally posted by Boris: not American soldiers wreaking wanton senseless destruction on unsuspecting civilians.
That's 16...How about the other 100,000+?
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
What is the correct number to be enraged about? Since these guys only killed 4 people in Boston, should we shrug it off?
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
quote:Originally posted by MattP: What is the correct number to be enraged about? Since these guys only killed 4 people in Boston, should we shrug it off?
I think you missed my point, Matt. People are arguing that the reason they decided to do this was the wars in the middle east, and half excusing this behavior on the idea that they are somehow justified in killing civilians who had nothing to do with those wars *because* of those wars. Because what would you do if you were in their position?
That's pure delusion. These guys were lonely, angry individuals with no social skills or ability to function in the real world and their addled minds picked whatever rationalization they could find to lash out at someone other than themselves.
It's outrageous to me that there are people who are willing to accept the idea that the US somehow had this coming and it is just and right for those 4 people to have been killed and those dozens of others to be physically maimed. That's a complete load of hogwash, and if you think that, you're not playing with a full deck.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
quote:t's outrageous to me that there are people who are willing to accept the idea that the US somehow had this coming and it is just and right for those 4 people to have been killed and those dozens of others to be physically maimed.
It's a big world with a lot of people. Pick any position you find outrageous and someone is going to hold it.
Is there someone in particular that you are arguing with though? I don't see anyone on this thread that matches your characterization, nor am I aware of any influential public figure suggesting that what happened was "just and right".
[ April 23, 2013, 11:07 PM: Message edited by: MattP ]
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Understanding, even empathizing with someone's motivation is not the same as excusing their behavior.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
boots is right.
Posted by RivalOfTheRose (Member # 11535) on :
[ April 23, 2013, 10:29 PM: Message edited by: JanitorBlade ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
And the stupids.
Posted by RivalOfTheRose (Member # 11535) on :
Sorry about the lack of warning. I don't really believe it, but the 'bottle of fake blood' made me do a double take.
Posted by Destineer (Member # 821) on :
Senoj, I'm a huge fan of your last couple posts and your overall intellectually honest MO. Rock on.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
I read the warnings, and I clicked the link anyway. There are some images there I would now like to unsee.
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: Understanding, even empathizing with someone's motivation is not the same as excusing their behavior.
Do you often find yourself trying to empathize with deranged madmen? Can I point out that doing so is probably a fool's errand? And do you realize that implicit in the act of empathizing is an acceptance of the idea that the actions and feelings of those you empathize with are a result of the workings of a completely rational and sane mind?
Any possible rationale you, as a sane person, could come up with to explain the actions of these individuals would only serve as a type of wallpaper over the real motivations behind these acts of violence. Anything you understand or empathize with them about is going to result in you completely missing the actual causes that result in this type of violence and destruction.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
quote:Originally posted by Boris:
quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: [qb] Understanding, even empathizing with someone's motivation is not the same as excusing their behavior.
Do you often find yourself trying to empathize with deranged madmen?
Yes.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
It is easy to decide that otherwise sane people don't do terrible, wrong things. It lets us off the hoof to believe that they are simply villains and that no good person could understand them or do what they did. It is also a lie.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:Any possible rationale you, as a sane person, could come up with to explain the actions of these individuals would only serve as a type of wallpaper over the real motivations behind these acts of violence. Anything you understand or empathize with them about is going to result in you completely missing the actual causes that result in this type of violence and destruction.
You've said repeatedly that they're deranged madmen, and strongly rejected any attempt to try and understand their motives.
Now that you've done this, it will be interesting to see how you will ever account for their 'real' motives and actual causes. I imagine it will be difficult to do without, you know, somehow attempting to understand their motives. Unless of course your rebuttals were actually just a convenient way of trying to shame people out of speaking ideas you don't like.
It's strange how out of touch your outlook is. Do you imagine, for example, that people who make it their business to pursue or thwart such men stop at the physical evidence and say "Well it's purposeless to try and understand them, they're just deranged madmen," or do you think instead they try and use whatever tools are available?
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
It is comforting to think that no one we know or like could ever commit an atrocity. Or that we couldn't. It has been proven time and again both by history and experiment that nice, normal, sane people are quite capable of committing great evil.
And even if it were a case of insanity, that would make it organic and an argument could be made that this made the culprit less responsible for the evil that he did.
Humans don't fall neatly into "good guys" and "bad guys". We are more complicated than that. Grown ups realize this.
Posted by Elison R. Salazar (Member # 8565) on :
quote:Originally posted by Boris: Let's also just ignore that probably most of the casualties of the Iraq/Afghanistan wars were caused by Muslims killing *other Muslims* and not American soldiers wreaking wanton senseless destruction on unsuspecting civilians.
I say probably because no one decided to take the time to determine who caused what deaths. Because blaming it all on the US is a *much* more appealing narrative when you want to brain wash an entire generation into thinking the US is *entirely deserving of every terrorist act enacted upon it*. I suppose the Jihadis are right. We're all evil people who deserve to die violently and without concern for age, gender, creed, or social standing.
And I'm sure many of the millions of dead Russians in the Great Patriotic War were a result of the regular dislocations caused by the USSR being a warzone and not per se deliberate German actions, however I wonder why "Conspiracy to commit aggression to accomplish a crime against peace" is a war crime and crime against humanity regardless?
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh:
quote:Any possible rationale you, as a sane person, could come up with to explain the actions of these individuals would only serve as a type of wallpaper over the real motivations behind these acts of violence. Anything you understand or empathize with them about is going to result in you completely missing the actual causes that result in this type of violence and destruction.
You've said repeatedly that they're deranged madmen, and strongly rejected any attempt to try and understand their motives.
Now that you've done this, it will be interesting to see how you will ever account for their 'real' motives and actual causes. I imagine it will be difficult to do without, you know, somehow attempting to understand their motives. Unless of course your rebuttals were actually just a convenient way of trying to shame people out of speaking ideas you don't like.
It's strange how out of touch your outlook is. Do you imagine, for example, that people who make it their business to pursue or thwart such men stop at the physical evidence and say "Well it's purposeless to try and understand them, they're just deranged madmen," or do you think instead they try and use whatever tools are available?
You realize that the people who are best at doing those kinds of profiling jobs usually end up with some serious psychological issues of their own as a result of their work?
I'm not able to really explain what I mean in an acceptable manner to people who constantly feel like attacking me instead of trying to understand what I'm saying, because apparently it's more important to understand the works and motivations of terrorists than those your political opposites. I mean, if you guys honestly were trying to understand and empathize, wouldn't you be doing the same with, I don't know, conservative American ideals? But you very obviously don't, based on just about every thread I read on this forum these days. I suspect that this lack of interest in empathizing with your political opposites contrasted with the increased desire to empathize with terrorists is more about finding a way to attack your political opposites than it is about actually gaining an understanding of their motivations.
What you guys are doing is basically saying that these people *are* sane. That their motivations are perfectly logical and reasonable based on some external influence. While that may actually be possible, doing so requires you to also believe the idea that maybe they are right and that perhaps we do deserve to be killed and maimed for our actions abroad.
"The United States has also been blowing up Muslims in the areas around the old Soviet Union for a good ten years now and counting. The entirety of their adult lives have been concurrent with the current "war on terror.""
Here's what that statement sounds like to me:
"Oh, we've been bombing them for ten years and these poor kids grew up in that environment and of *course* they're going to come over here and blow up our civilians as a result. That's only logical and reasonable."
I'm sorry, but it takes a hell of a lot more than just anger at foreign influence to get a normal person past the psychological blocks that prevent them from committing mass murder.
I am not arguing that it's not possible to empathize with these people, I'm arguing that doing so without specific training in psychology, particularly *criminal* psychology, is a complete waste of time. Because any theory an untrained individual will come up with is going to be outright wrong from the very nature of the psychological issues involved. Further, why do you not spend so much time trying to empathize with people like Jared Laughner, or Adam Lanza, or James Holmes? When those guys killed people it was just, "BAN GUNS WHARGARBL!!!!" or "CONSERVATIVES CAUSED THIS WHARGARBL!!!!" Why are you so inconsistent?
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: Humans don't fall neatly into "good guys" and "bad guys". We are more complicated than that. Grown ups realize this.
God I love being patronized. This is why I come to this forum. I really am a glutton for punishment, apparently. I keep wondering why you guys are astonished that the only conservatives left on this board are trolls.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:You realize that the people who are best at doing those kinds of profiling jobs usually end up with some serious psychological issues of their own as a result of their work?
I'm gonna flat out say I'm very dubious as to your actually having real knowledge on this matter. Are you involved in any sort of criminal psychology? Work regularly with the violently unstable? Have you studied such matter, perhaps, extensively in your private life? Or is this statement what it sounds like, informed by pop culture?
quote:I'm not able to really explain what I mean in an acceptable manner to people who constantly feel like attacking me instead of trying to understand what I'm saying, because apparently it's more important to understand the works and motivations of terrorists than those your political opposites. I mean, if you guys honestly were trying to understand and empathize, wouldn't you be doing the same with, I don't know, conservative American ideals? But you very obviously don't, based on just about every thread I read on this forum these days. I suspect that this lack of interest in empathizing with your political opposites contrasted with the increased desire to empathize with terrorists is more about finding a way to attack your political opposites than it is about actually gaining an understanding of their motivations.
Oh, alright. So this is really just fueled by self-pity. People attack your beliefs and you really don't like it.
I say that because here's what you fail to understand: concluding 'part of his rage was from poorly understood but very intense anger over American military activity across the world' *does not* equate to 'and therefore his murders aren't quite so bad. It's offensive and childish of you to assert otherwise, which of course is exactly what you're doing-openly in places.
Pull your head out of the amber waves of grain and realize this, Boris: acknowledging that the US has done bad things-much less acknowledging that someone else, such as a criminal, thought they did bad thing!-does not equate to believing in a moral justification, in any extent, for mass murder. You have basically two choices at this point-you can either continue to believe you are thoroughly aware of the inner thoughts of people you strongly dislike, or you can listen to them when we say emphatically 'hey, we don't think that!'
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:I am not arguing that it's not possible to empathize with these people, I'm arguing that doing so without specific training in psychology, particularly *criminal* psychology, is a complete waste of time.
Whereas reflexively depersonalizing and somehow mysteriously concluding based off of some made up post-rationalization that they had "no social skills or ability to function in the real world" (when pretty much everything we know about them indicates that your assessment of them is pure bunk) is apparently a-ok in comparison.
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Oh, alright. So this is really just fueled by self-pity. People attack your beliefs and you really don't like it.
Ah good. More personal attacks. Keep it up. You make me want to move over to your way of thinking with every insult.
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
quote:Originally posted by Boris: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Rakeesh: [qb] [QUOTE]
I am not arguing that it's not possible to empathize with these people, I'm arguing that doing so without specific training in psychology, particularly *criminal* psychology, is a complete waste of time.
Well as an actor and a screenwriter, and I would argue as a human being, it's my job to do my best anyway. Showing empathy and aknowledging how the US may have caused these people to suffer and carry out a horrible crime, probably sends a better message to the other people who are suffering in similar ways. And maybe we prevent a similar crime in the future. Yeah, it's probably a fool's hope. But empathizing with people is the only thing I know how to do I gotta do something. There's nothing political there. Don't give a shit about conservatives/liberals.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Are you involved in any sort of criminal psychology? Work regularly with the violently unstable? Have you studied such matter, perhaps, extensively in your private life? Or is this statement what it sounds like, informed by pop culture?
The statement is, as a point of fact, completely untrue. Offender profilers and forensic psychologists don't have any special larger share of issues that other people in the same stress-inducing criminology/justice related fields don't have.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Boris:
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Oh, alright. So this is really just fueled by self-pity. People attack your beliefs and you really don't like it.
Ah good. More personal attacks. Keep it up. You make me want to move over to your way of thinking with every insult.
You've been talking in a concertedly insulting and contemptuous tone and making statements just as directly insulting as someone pointing out where your contempt boils over from. If you're going to start critiquing the failure of persuasiveness due to hostility wherever you see it, you better remove all the mirrors in your house at least until you figure out that we don't need an Occasional 2.0.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Something else to consider: such people are likely to be considerably better measured on such matters, being in the field as it were, than the general population. And they *still* don't show as more crazy.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:What you guys are doing is basically saying that these people *are* sane. That their motivations are perfectly logical and reasonable based on some external influence. While that may actually be possible, doing so requires you to also believe the idea that maybe they are right...
Yes, maybe they are right. But they are not right. They are wrong. It is possible that they are right. But they are not.
quote:it takes a hell of a lot more than just anger at foreign influence to get a normal person past the psychological blocks that prevent them from committing mass murder
It takes, for example, a couple of years in the military.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
No kidding, Boris. You've repeatedly and openly told people that they're sympathizing with mass murderers because they dislike America. So maybe don't whine so much when people are mean to you.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
quote:Originally posted by Boris:
I'm not able to really explain what I mean in an acceptable manner to people who constantly feel like attacking me instead of trying to understand what I'm saying, because apparently it's more important to understand the works and motivations of terrorists than those your political opposites. I mean, if you guys honestly were trying to understand and empathize, wouldn't you be doing the same with, I don't know, conservative American ideals? But you very obviously don't, based on just about every thread I read on this forum these days. I suspect that this lack of interest in empathizing with your political opposites contrasted with the increased desire to empathize with terrorists is more about finding a way to attack your political opposites than it is about actually gaining an understanding of their motivations.
What makes you think that we don't understand the motivations of conservatives? Understanding is not the same as agreeing.
quote:
What you guys are doing is basically saying that these people *are* sane. That their motivations are perfectly logical and reasonable based on some external influence. While that may actually be possible, doing so requires you to also believe the idea that maybe they are right and that perhaps we do deserve to be killed and maimed for our actions abroad.
No. It doesn't. Again, there are a lot of links missing in that chain you are putting together.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
The younger brother is 19. From the evidence so far, it looks very much like his older brother talked him into this.
I remember how dumb I was at 19. I may not have been quite as malleable, but I was definitely an angry young man, and I knew very little about the larger world. I'm not about to judge this kid. Beat his ass, if I had the chance? Yeah, I'd slap him around, if he seemed to have a bad attitude. Then I'd explain why--because I had a very good friend running the marathon that day, and she missed the blast by just a couple of minutes. If she wasn't such a high-level runner, she'd have finished later, and might be dead right now. I don't appreciate people who try to kill my friends.
But I'm not going to judge this idiot. He was young, malleable, partly justifiably angry, and heavily influenced by his older brother. That doesn't mean that killing him is going to solve anything. He certainly doesn't ever need to be back on the streets, but killing him solves nothing.
Posted by odouls268 (Member # 2145) on :
quote:Originally posted by Boris:
quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: Humans don't fall neatly into "good guys" and "bad guys". We are more complicated than that. Grown ups realize this.
God I love being patronized. This is why I come to this forum. I really am a glutton for punishment, apparently. I keep wondering why you guys are astonished that the only conservatives left on this board are trolls.
Good. Goood. Let it flow through you. Soon your journey towards the dark side will be complete.
Posted by odouls268 (Member # 2145) on :
quote:Originally posted by steven: The younger brother is 19. From the evidence so far, it looks very much like his older brother talked him into this.
I remember how dumb I was at 19. I may not have been quite as malleable, but I was definitely an angry young man, and I knew very little about the larger world. I'm not about to judge this kid. Beat his ass, if I had the chance? Yeah, I'd slap him around, if he seemed to have a bad attitude. Then I'd explain why--because I had a very good friend running the marathon that day, and she missed the blast by just a couple of minutes. If she wasn't such a high-level runner, she'd have finished later, and might be dead right now. I don't appreciate people who try to kill my friends.
But I'm not going to judge this idiot. He was young, malleable, partly justifiably angry, and heavily influenced by his older brother. That doesn't mean that killing him is going to solve anything. He certainly doesn't ever need to be back on the streets, but killing him solves nothing.
"partly justifiably angry"
How so, in your opinion?
(The preceding is a rare moment of genuine curiosity)
Posted by odouls268 (Member # 2145) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:What you guys are doing is basically saying that these people *are* sane. That their motivations are perfectly logical and reasonable based on some external influence. While that may actually be possible, doing so requires you to also believe the idea that maybe they are right...
Yes, maybe they are right. But they are not right. They are wrong. It is possible that they are right. But they are not.
quote:it takes a hell of a lot more than just anger at foreign influence to get a normal person past the psychological blocks that prevent them from committing mass murder
It takes, for example, a couple of years in the military.
I might be reading this wrong Tom, but are you saying that a couple of years in the military is what is needed to indoctrinate someone into being psychologically capable of mass murder?
Posted by odouls268 (Member # 2145) on :
quote: The statement is, as a point of fact, completely untrue. Offender profilers and forensic psychologists don't have any special larger share of issues that other people in the same stress-inducing criminology/justice related fields don't have.
Yeah, that's why I wanna be a librarian.
That, and all the Ludlum's I can read.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:I might be reading this wrong Tom, but are you saying that a couple of years in the military is what is needed to indoctrinate someone into being psychologically capable of mass murder?
Yes. Although it's far from the only way.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
I feel like some effort and some heartache could have prevented by some careful reading. Here's the context in which I was posting.
quote:Originally posted by Stephan: The more information that comes out, the more confused I get. Historically, the United States has supported the Muslims in the areas around the old Soviet Union. We helped free them from Milosevic, and have always demanded that Russia show restraint with Chechnya. Has the Obama administration done anything to change that policy?
quote:Originally posted by Mucus: The United States has also been blowing up Muslims in the areas around the old Soviet Union for a good ten years now and counting. The entirety of their adult lives have been concurrent with the current "war on terror."
...
This sounds tragic for everyone really. If you want the drone war to be pulled back, then nope. If you're Muslim-American, bad news. Tragic for the victims, especially the international ones like Lu Lingzhi that were just "there" and were unlikely to have been targets.
Someone was confused as to why the US might be considered a target as opposed to Russia. I gave a possible explanation and called it a tragedy.
A tragedy is what most humans would recognize as something that is *not* "just and right."
If you're still puzzled, an explanation is something that makes a chain of cause and effect understandable. It is not in this context, an observation about morality.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 9735) on :
Another quick thought, Boris is posting the assertion that the brothers were insane. If this is in fact the case, the surviving brother may use this as a legal defence. Is there any evidence that they are in fact insane or is this just a reflex reaction? I'm reminded of some initial reactions to Anders Breivik who was in fact found by a psychiatric examination to be sane.
quote:Originally posted by SenojRetep: Just to have some accountability, according to 'a US official familiar with the interviews', Johar claims that the US wars in Iraq and Afghanistan played a significant role in his and his brother's motivation. The article makes no mention of Chechen identity as a motivating factor in the attacks.
I also want to say that I appreciate the update and definitely respect the accountability.
Posted by steven (Member # 8099) on :
quote:Originally posted by odouls268: "partly justifiably angry"
How so, in your opinion?
(The preceding is a rare moment of genuine curiosity)
The US's foreign policy has not been without its missteps over the last 60+ years, especially in the Muslim world. Setting up our favored puppet in Iran, supporting Saddam in Iraq, etc.. They largely hate the US, and not entirely because we're not Muslims.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
It's not as simple as 'they largely hate us', nor for that matter is it as simple as 'the Muslim world'-which would be what, exactly? Do Iran and Saudi Arabia, for example, get lumped together in the same group?
Posted by Tuukka (Member # 12124) on :
quote:Originally posted by Boris:
quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: Understanding, even empathizing with someone's motivation is not the same as excusing their behavior.
Do you often find yourself trying to empathize with deranged madmen? Can I point out that doing so is probably a fool's errand? And do you realize that implicit in the act of empathizing is an acceptance of the idea that the actions and feelings of those you empathize with are a result of the workings of a completely rational and sane mind?
Any possible rationale you, as a sane person, could come up with to explain the actions of these individuals would only serve as a type of wallpaper over the real motivations behind these acts of violence. Anything you understand or empathize with them about is going to result in you completely missing the actual causes that result in this type of violence and destruction.
Even if they would be certifiably insane, it would't hurt to try to understand why they did what they did. Because even insane people act according to some internal logic.
Criminal psychology does this all the time. Thanks to successful profiling, many killers, rapist, arsonists, etc, have been caught.
It's also sometimes helps to catch potential insane mass-murderers before they actually commit their crimes. A lot of these people are caught when they are merely planning to commit something. And it happens because professional profilers have been able to find patterns that even insane people do in preparation to their acts.
It's impossible to find any logical reason why we should *not* try to understand such people. Your concept of profilers becoming crazy due to too much profiling work, is something that happens only in popular fiction.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Neither one of them is likely to be certifiably insane in any sense that will matter at all for sentencing purposes, but I'm pretty sure both of them were nuts in the same way I've called some posters here nuts, and obviously the older brother was radicalized enough at some point to make the jump to bombing crowds.
The elder wonder chechen may also have had some legitimate serious mental issues and had become something of a total nutbar, getting himself kicked out of his mosque in the process. Got in 'domestic disputes,' was a bully in school, etc. He sounds like he has just never legitimately been a good person? Iunno, i guess they're gonna test his brain for CTE too.
Posted by Elison R. Salazar (Member # 8565) on :
Clearly Boris needs to watch Psycho-Pass to really understand what he's talking about.
To put it in context, sometimes in order to catch a criminal before he can strike, you have to understand their mindset, to the point of where you can think like they do. "Aha, that corner looks like a pretty good spot if I wanted to shank a guy unobserved..."
There's no real line to which you stop trying to understand that mindset.
Kinda like Boris's reasoning above, "Your trying to understand them more just means you won't actually understand them so don't bother!"
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Elison R. Salazar: Clearly Boris needs to watch Psycho-Pass to really understand what he's talking about.
You're joking, right?
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
for context
quote:Psycho-Pass (PSYCHO-PASS サイコパス?) is a Japanese anime television series by Production I.G. The series aired on Fuji TV's Noitamina programming block between October 2012 and March 2013 and has been licensed by Funimation Entertainment in North America. A manga adaptation began serialization in Shueisha's Jump Square magazine from November 2012. The story takes place in the near future where it is possible to instantaneously measure a person's mental state, personality, and the probability that a person will commit crimes with a device installed on each citizen's body called the Psycho-Pass. It follows members of Unit One of the Public Safety Bureau's Criminal Investigation Division and the crimes they investigate.
Please be joking.
Posted by Elison R. Salazar (Member # 8565) on :
Why would I have to be joking to reference visual media for current events or subject matter?
In that world, the people who would be mentally predisposed to murder and terrorism ("Latent criminals") are screened from society and institutionalized (or executed). So there's literally no police force anymore, there's zero need.
But occasionally there's individuals who are "different" psychopaths, people who can't be effectively screened, or snap and commit their crimes before authorities can detect them. When this happens you have the Ministry of Public Safety and their "Enforcers", latent criminals kept on as "hunting dogs", the only people left trusted to hunt down criminals.
Because, by being latent criminals, they are the only ones who can "think" like a criminal (ergo why they are latent criminals see?) and thus the only ones mentally equipped to outthink criminals. Their handlers or "inspectors" have clear psycho-pass's, they investigating, or trained in investigations such as criminal profiling would result in them becoming latent criminals themselves. Their job is to stun the enforcers if they get out of line.
The relevance is to make a simple point, you need people who can understand and think like criminals, if you are going to catch them, preferably before the act. A lot of people simply can't, can't imagine such cruelty, but you need some people who can imagine it.
(Police vs Enforcers is that there's literally, no police anywhere, you have 5 guys to cover all of a major 10 million+ populated metropolis for the occasional person going nuts and statistically that's all that is needed.)
Posted by Tuukka (Member # 12124) on :
I'm sure it's a fun series, but it's selling a myth that exists mainly in fiction.
You don't need to be a latent criminal to think like a criminal. You are somewhat supporting the ridiculous point Boris was making earlier on, about dangers of profiling.
Understanding criminals is not an emotional process. It's an intellectual one. The best person to do profiling is a kind of person who can separate his own emotions from the process, and use only his intellect, combined with his intuition. The more analytical you are able to be, the better you are at your job.
(This is also true of shrinks, BTW).
Emotions only blind you in criminal investigation. If you are a latent criminal yourself, thus adding emotional stakes to the process, it makes you a worse profiler. You are thinking what *you* would do, instead of thinking about all the options what a criminal would do. This kind of subjective approach would be limiting.
You do need intuition to support your intellect, but intuition is more about creativity. It's not emotion, and it's not passion towards something (crime).
Sure, there are some examples of ex-criminals becoming profilers, or safety experts. This seems to be particularly typical in frauds, confidence tricks, hacking, etc. People who have shown particular talent for aforementioned things, can be good at spotting criminal work by others.
But the concept of hiring an imprisoned serial killer to catch another serial killer, or hiring a serial rapist to catch a serial rapist, or hiring an arsonist to catch an arsonist, would be fairly pointless.
However, it's important to get as much information from caught criminals, as possible. This information, and psychological profilers of caught criminals, forms a database that be later used to catch more criminals.
If you were to catch a serial killer, would it be more helpful to hire a convicted serial killer who can tell you why *he* did what he did (Getting an extremely subjective version, riddled with lies and self-deceit), or would you hire someone like Richard Walter? He was a prison psychologist, who due to his work knew over 2.000 murderers, sex-offenders and serial killers, and helped create many of the fundamentals that are used in profiling still today (Along with actually catching many real world criminals).
I'd go with Walter.
Posted by Elison R. Salazar (Member # 8565) on :
I think you took the reference I made a little far past my intentions, I merely used it to reference "To catch criminals, you have to think like them, and work to understand them", within the series there's the claim that doing this "makes you like them" and explores what that means, but I wasn't extending that point to here. Boris is saying iirc, that there's no point to trying to understand a mind that is "crazy" as he broadly defines it because y'know, they're crazy. Tautology aside, my counter point was (using the series as a reference) is that if your not willing to go that distance, you won't be able to prevent other preventable circumstances.
The series goes "Criminals think differently from the social norm, normal methods are insufficient to catch them. Thus we need to better understand them, however understanding latent criminals empirically makes you a latent criminal yourself, ergo only latent criminals can catch other latent criminals."
I am simply saying, because the series is recent and on my mind, so its my cultural reference point that "Sometimes the only way to prevent a criminal from committing criminal acts, is to understand how a criminal thinks and behaves." The show is just a square-peg round hole reference point as all cultural reference points are, but still fun as a reference point.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
I am pretty impressed. Has this thread stayed conspiracy nut free?
Posted by Elison R. Salazar (Member # 8565) on :
But not Anime frei. :getin:
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
quote:The decision to read Miranda rights to Boston Marathon bombing suspect Dzhokhar Tsarnaev in the midst of an interrogation was called “disgraceful” Sunday by a leading Republican, who took aim at U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder for not opposing the decision.
It isn't like the suspect didn't have those rights before someone read them to him. Reading Miranda doesn't bestow those rights; it just informs the suspect that he has them. Do we really think that this guy didn't know his rights already?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Many, many suspects don't realize which rights they have until those rights are enumerated for them. That's actually why Miranda rights are read.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Yes. I get that. And we should read them their rights. This particular suspect, though? I mean, if I know my rights, a guy who carefully plotted out his crime would as well.
Posted by stilesbn (Member # 11809) on :
It sounds like this guy may not have known his rights, may not have remembered them, or may have thought since he was classified as a terrorist he had different rights. Or something else but according to the news article he stopped talking after they read him his rights.
I guess the argument is that they should have waited till 48 hours to read him his rights in order to get more information. I've never heard of the public safety exception. It could be they had determined that there was no longer imminent danger from others working with him and his brother. At that point I would think that they decided they no longer had legal standing for the public safety exception.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
More importantly: can you imagine the horrible, horrible precedent that could have been set had they not decided to finally read him his rights?
[ April 29, 2013, 02:58 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Funny how those who throw the biggest hissy fits about protecting the Constitution are the ones willing to throw it overboard the fastest when it's someone else's rights who are threatened.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
I had to check the dates on these posts, because the Miranda thing was last week. And a non-story.
The deal is that the cops can ask whatever they want without Miranda, they just can't use it in court.
Once you start chucking bombs at SWAT teams, and run over your brother with a car, the beyond a reasonable doubt is pretty easy. They don't need to bully him into saying he did it to keep him locked away forever (or kill him).
They did need to bully him into admitting stuff that will prevent future crimes. And that's fair.
Posted by RivalOfTheRose (Member # 11535) on :
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Taunt]](graemlins/taunt.gif)
Not that it's an invitation to try again or harder, but the really great organizational effort put in by the BAA every year has resulted in people losing more limbs than lives.
![[Laugh]](graemlins/laugh.gif)
![[No No]](graemlins/nono.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)