It seemed to me that Morsi was kinda asking for it, a lot of his initiatives seemed to consolidate too much long term power in the hands of religious conservatives.
[ July 03, 2013, 07:01 PM: Message edited by: Elison R. Salazar ]
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Eh. It's like Saddam, Gaddafi, and Assad (not saying Morsi is as bad as them): Yeah, he clearly had it coming, but as for whether the next guy is an improvement...
Posted by Obama (Member # 13004) on :
So long as he was freely elected and didn't interfere with the next scheduled elections, then he shouldn't have been forcibly removed.
Democracy kind of falls apart when you get to have the military remove the other side's guy from office after one year because your guy didn't win. If you're just going to tell the guys with the guns to take down someone you don't like, even if he was elected, then you might as well stick with dictatorship.
So we tell terrorist groups all around the world that they should stop what they're doing, join peaceful society and help their countries gain democracy.
The Muslim Brotherhood does exactly this. They become part of an elected and legitimate government, and get to try and do things their way legislatively, instead of through terrorism and force. Then they're booted because the minority dislikes what they've done. I, for one, am going to be quite a bit more sympathetic if and when they decide to go back to chucking bombs.
Posted by Elison R. Salazar (Member # 8565) on :
Its a bit of a different kettle of fish in countries where its kinda standard for the military to oust leaders seen as sufficiently corrupt. Also the military's job is "to defend the constitution..." etc etc, they are probably arguing that because Morsi was favouring Muslims over non Muslims and formulating policies of exclusion was sufficient c.b. Other countries sometimes have these "States within States"/Shadow governments and the military isn't necessarily subordinate.
To clarify "was asking for it" I mean in terms of going a bit too far in overtly religious conservatives moves that would obviously upset the military; not that he was as bad as Assad/Etc and go.
Like I mean calling for a jihad and calling his political opponents infidels? Sheesh.
Posted by Obama (Member # 13004) on :
I thought he was in hot water because the constitution that he and the fairly elected majority wrote wasn't up to the standards of the "people."
How then would the military be defending the constitution?
Look, I'm not saying the guy wasn't a horse's ass, but civilized people wait until the next election to throw the bum out.
Posted by Wingracer (Member # 12293) on :
What if the freely elected officials are clearly conspiring to make it so they (or at least their party) cannot be voted out? I'm not saying that was happening here, I don't know enough about it to judge but while I agree that the government should not be overthrown under normal circumstances, I also know there are always extraordinary circumstances where almost any other option is acceptable. I believe TVtropes calls it the "Godzilla Threshold". Posted by Obama (Member # 13004) on :
If they eliminate elections or the ability for any party to enter them, then it's no longer a real democracy and there's no real problem in having a good old fashioned military coup.
I haven't heard that that is what happened, but I haven't been absorbed in this process and haven't done all that much research. If it turns out that they were attempting to cancel or limit the next elections, I'll happily change my tune.
Posted by Wingracer (Member # 12293) on :
I haven't been following all that closely either, just trying to point out that things can go so bad that an overthrow becomes viable. Majority rule does not always result in the majority being right or just.
For instance, if the American people were to actually vote in a party that re-instituted slavery, I doubt the minority would wait four years for an election before rebelling.
All that being said, what little I have heard about Egypt concerns me. If it was some sort of mass popular uprising, well ok but a military coup has a lot of potentially bad connotations. I hope the Egyptian military is better at ruling than most every other military in history but I have my doubts.
Posted by Obama (Member # 13004) on :
The military did quite well in Egypt the last time, and handed over power to the elected civilian government without an issue. I'm not too concerned there.
I just dislike the precedent being set. What happens the if the opposition wins the next round of elections and the Muslim Brotherhood starts rioting because they don't like the types of laws being passed? Will the military dissolve the government then, too?
Posted by umberhulk (Member # 11788) on :
I think Morse used to teach at the college I'm transfering to.
Posted by Obama (Member # 13004) on :
Looking into it a bit more, it looks like Morsi granted himself emergency powers during the time when the Constitution was being drafted. After protests, he lowered the scope of his powers to levels that quieted the opposition somewhat.
The next time trouble started appeared to be when Morsi was accused of declaring martial law. I'm not sure on the specifics of this one ; the article I read said that he stationed military at national institutions and polling places to protect them and voters from rioters and protestors. Not sure that that really counts as martial law.
Then when the people who most hold my ideals, the secularists and leftists and others generally not conservative religious people, decided to boycott the process because it was obvious they were going to lose, he pushed through the Constitution anyway. I'm not sure that they have much to complain about there, though. They left the process.
Supposedly the constitution itself is pretty light on civil and religious freedoms. So, maybe, this was for the best overall, especially as it's probably not easy for every legislative body that comes in to change the constitution. Still think it sets bad precedent, though.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
So, apparently the revolution WILL be televised.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Here you go, here's all you need to know in a text block form:
"In November 2012, Morsi abruptly announced on television that he was above the rule of law and his executive orders could not be overturned by the judiciary until such time as a new constitution was passed. He seems in part to have been trying to protect the religious-right-dominated constitutional drafting committee. His announcement enraged substantial sections of the Egyptian public, who had joined to overthrow dictator Hosni Mubarak precisely because the latter had held himself above the rule of law.
In response to the massive demonstrations that his presidential decree provoked, Morsi pushed through a constitution that is unacceptable to a large swath of Egyptians. Even though two dozen members of the drafting committee resigned to protest key provisions of the draft constitution, which they saw as back doors for theocracy, Morsi accepted the Brotherhood/Salafi draft and presented it to the nation in a countrywide referendum. Egypt’s judges, who are supposed to preside over and certify the balloting, went on strike, but the president forged ahead anyway. Only 33 percent of voters went to the polls, many of them supporters of the president. The constitution was passed, but much of the country clearly was uncomfortable with it. Morsi’s promise of a consensual document was hollow. The referendum could not be certified as free and fair by international standards.
...
Once the constitution was approved, Morsi moved to create the fiction that he had a functioning legislature, packing it with Muslim Brothers. The lower house of parliament elected in fall 2011 had been struck down by the courts, since the Muslim Brotherhood and the Salafis had run party candidates for most of the seats set aside for independents (one third of the total), and these party candidates easily defeated unknown and poorly funded independents. Morsi abruptly appointed 90 members to the previously largely ceremonial upper house, a significant number from the Freedom and Justice Party and its allies or fellow travelers of the religious right. He then declared that the upper house could independently legislate, even in the absence of the elected parliament, and even though only 7 percent of its seats were elected. The religious right began crafting legislation. The courts struck down the upper house in June, though to no great effect.
Last month, Morsi suddenly appointed 17 provincial governors (governors are appointed, not elected, in Egypt, which is one of the things wrong with Egyptian politics). Several of them were Muslim Brothers or Salafis, and one was a member of the al-Gama’a al-Islamiya, a former terrorist group. Adel al-Khayat was appointed to govern Luxor, the site of the Valley of the Kings and a major tourist destination. The Gama’a had conducted a terrorist strike there, killing dozens of tourists in 1997. Luxor was not willing to forgive the Gama’a, and demonstrators demanded that the appointment be withdrawn. Al-Khayat resigned last week. Again, that Morsi was using his position as president to turn the Egyptian government over to the religious right, and sometimes to its most extreme wing, frightened and angered liberals, leftists, Coptic Christians and women."
"The final straw seems to have been his imprisonment of a television satirist that mocked the president. There have been estimates of 23 million people swarming the cities in protests. There have been pro-morsi protests too. The Military finally stepped in 2 days ago and gave an ultimatum to morsi, fix the crisis or you are out. The deadline has now passed."
"He gone."
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
Also recognize that these protests took place in egypt, which is still a rotten and backwards culture when it comes to women, and so you will doubtlessly start hearing about the seven trillion women who were raped during the riots and protests and whatnot
Posted by Elison R. Salazar (Member # 8565) on :
Yeah coup seems like a good thing this time around.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)