• The best landmarks have a dramatic story from the person's past that not many people know about.
  
  When I was maybe a year old, something happened that was to change the course of my life radically. I was living in the Philippines, having been born there at Clark Air Force Base, where my father was stationed as a doctor. My father and mother were flying back there, returning from a vacation in Hawaii. The plane was a small, single engine aircraft like a Cessna, and my father was piloting it, having learned how to fly at the Air Force Academy. They were the only two people on board. Suddenly, the engine started having trouble. My father went through normal procedures, trying to figure out what was happening. The engine then stopped. At the time, they happened to be over the ocean and they plummeted down, slamming into the water. There were no parachutes on board. There were no life jackets, either. They both got out of the plane before it sank and started trying to keep afloat. My mother was frantic. She was not a good swimmer and kept clutching desperately at my father to keep herself above the surface. He tried for a while but could not tread water with her panicked hold on him. Eventually he had to push her away. And she did not make it.
  .
  As he was telling me this story 14 years later, the first time I had ever asked about her death, tears were streaming down his cheeks. I couldn't bring myself to ask if she screamed at him, begged him to help her. I couldn't ask if he watched while she sank beneath the waves. I couldn't ask how he swam all those miles to land. But I wondered, and I wondered how such a thing might affect a man and haunt his dreams.
  
  My dad remarried a couple years after my mother's death. She was the sister of one his medical school buddies, and apparently she was very good looking. Dad was finding it difficult to look after two small children (my older brother and me) alone and I don't think the courtship took very long. She was Mom to me - I had known no other that I could remember. She treated us a little weirdly, but I didn't really know that at the time. My father was busy working most of the time, the life of a surgeon. The housekeepers they hired took care of us most of the time. About the only time I interacted with her was when the family went out to eat or to visit someone. I learned to be seen and not heard at the dinner table and around the house. I learned to make my own breakfast quietly in the morning, knowing that my noise in the morning woke her up. I learned to avoid being around when she came home, or I'd be lectured or told to go do a chore. There was not a whole lot of physical contact, except when she wanted to grab me by the arm, or poke me in the chest.
  .
  Years later as a teenager, realizing that it was strange not to have physical contact with your parents, I asked her to give me a hug. She looked at me askance, as if I had asked her to do something inconceivable. For some reason, I never wondered what would have happened if my biological mother had lived. Would I have been changed by the difference in affection? Would I have been so introverted? For someone with a rich imagination, my mind was remarkably silent on this subject.
  .
  I lived in my world of books, learning morality, compassion and the way of the world from them. I passive aggressively didn't do my chores. I had my brother to provide human company and I got surrogate affection from the dogs we had while growing up. I never hated her, though, only wanting affection from her and good attention, maybe even a real conversation where I wasn't afraid she'd yell at me.
  
  The news of her death came while I was finishing up boot camp. I was 19 years old. I was called into the Company Commanders' office and they asked me to sit down. She had died of a heart attack. I cried when they told me. I wasn't sure if that was something that was allowed in uniform but I was unable to stop myself. Later, walking into the shower in a surreal stupor, it dawned on me that she was dead. I could go home without worrying about her yelling at me. I didn't have to be afraid anymore. Laughter started bubbling out of me because I felt so relieved.
  
  Another guy who was in the shower said, "You're standing there laughing? Your mom just died, man!"
  
  "She was my stepmother," I corrected.
  
  I have made the distinction clear in my mind ever since.
  .
• A secret is often revealed..
  Long ago, in the time of Baldar, when Lalo was using the screen name Eddie Whiteshoes, before Papa Moose had become a character in a book, when people still knew how to make dobies and the funny was plentiful, there was a young man who went by the name Cedrios. He spoke fervently of music, particularly Rush (the band) and Joe Satriani, spun tales of who he was and what he did and made people loathe the word "dichotomy". One thing was for sure - he had screen names. Lots of 'em. After pretending they were not all the same person for a while, he got bored and revealed his trickery. People were a little upset. They asked him why he would do such a thing. He said he was a psychology student and that he'd been studying them. That really made them upset. Turns out he was just a pre-law student going to PLU and he had made the whole psychology thing up. Hatrack recovered, but never really trusted screen names they way they had.
  
  Why am I bringing this up now? Cedrios happens to be my younger brother, Kevin. I don't really have an explanation for what he did. I didn't know it was going on before he broke the news to everyone, though I was on the board at the time under the SN Amontillado and sensed that the multiple SNs were all written similarly and seemed familiar to me. I have already mentioned that he's my brother to several people, mostly at Kamacon, and the reaction was pretty gracious. The only reaction I'm still worried about is Leto II's (aka GreNME). He seemed kind of...emotional...about Cedrios.
  .
• Shamelessly dropping the names of other members, especially popular ones, ensures responses.
  
  I'm sorry, Ralphie, just like in Lalo's landmark, you already knew the big secret. So did TomDavidson, BannaOJ, Frisco, Ndra, T_Smith (and thus I assume mack knew) and evil celia60. I don't think I mentioned it to Narnia, Shan or Zotto!, though I'm not sure it affected them much. For the record, it's my influence that started Kevin listening to Rush (the band) and Joe Satriani.
  .
• The connection with Hatrack is emphasized.
  
  I share a lot of similarities with the people here. I was really into books when I was younger like Shigosei and others here, I don't hold grudges just like Zevlag doesn't, I was in honors and AP classes, like most of the people on Kama's gifted thread, I'm somewhat of a Grammar Nazi like Jon Boy, I really enjoy sandwiches like saxon75, I like to argue semantics and exactness like Dagonee, I enjoy talking about science like rivka and aka, I love Rush (the band) and The Princess Bride like Jim-Me, and I really love Calvin and Hobbes like, well, Hobbes. I'm sure there are many more connections to many of you and I hope to discover new ones along the way. For now, just accept my thanks for the entertainment, hospitality and community you have shown me.

Edit: to add "(the band)" to all references to Rush (the band) so as not to confuse Rush (the band) with some other Rush (not the band).

[ March 06, 2005, 05:22 AM: Message edited by: JonnyNotSoBravo ]
 

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Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
 


That's the most shocking revealed secret I've ever seen in a landmark!!
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
Ced predated me by a LOT, but even I realize how shocking this is. See: ? Shocking!
 

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Posted by adam613 (Member # 5522) on :
 
I wasn't around during the Cedrios incident, so I probably wasn't as shocked as some, but this was a great landmark anyway
 

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Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
 
JNSB -- That was great! I really enjoyed meeting you at KamaCon too -- although you were pretty quiet and hard to get to know.

quote:

---

I love Rush

---

I had to decide if you meant Rush the band, or Rush Limbaugh, but finally decided on the former....


FG
 

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Posted by mothertree (Member # 4999) on :
 
I'm sorry to hear about your father and mother. But I guess if he hadn't done that you wouldn't have had any parents at all.
 

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Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
 
Wow, that's what I call a revelation... Thank you for sharing your history with us, and always be welcome here, JNSB.
 

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Posted by Amka (Member # 690) on :
 
Wow, JNSB. That is all I can say. Just wow.
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
Wow. One question, though:

Do you like ketchup?
 

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Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
 
Let me just say that you're one of my favorites, both here and at sakeriver. If I ever make it up to Seattle, I'm totally buying you a sandwich.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Yeah, guy. Meeting you was actually one of the best surprises of KamaCon.
 

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Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
 
Wow, that was some story.

You left out one hallmark of a landmark though.

You mentioned: "Shamelessly dropping the names of other members, especially popular ones, ensures responses."

The corollary is, "Less popular people you don't mention are sure to remark on the fact that they were left out."

And, for the record, I already knew you were the brother of Kevin /Cedrios. Some people were very upset about what he did, at the time it happened, but it's past history, now.

All the best to you. Glad you are around to share in the forum.
 

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Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
 
*Official BtL seal of approval*

"A captivating thrill ride from start to finish. Wow."

-Bob the Lawyer

Congrats on the landmark, JNSB.
 

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Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
 
You can sleep on my couch any time, Jon.

Thank you for your landmark.
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Very sobering, Johnny. It made me think of the book "Phantom" by Susan Kay, a "renovelization" of Phantom of the Opera. In the book, Eric's mother never gave him affection. The day he asked for a kiss for his birthday, she became very angry with him. His only affection came from their dog. When the dog died, and the priest said it had no soul, he just broke inside--since the dog was his only source of love, affection, and compassion. He denied God that day.

Anyway, didn't know about Cedrios either. I wasn't here for that whole thing. I hope your brother is doing well.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
*hugs JNSB*
You're cool, man.

One thing that he doesn't mention about himself in his landmark, is that he is Tall, very Tall. I think he was the tallest person at KamaCon.

AJ
 

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Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
 
Yeah - he stands out in the back row of this photo.

Most women are very attracted to tall guys

FG
 

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Posted by Zotto! (Member # 4689) on :
 
Wow. Dude. Great & informative landmark, Jonny. I'm really glad I got the chance to meet you when I was on the mainland. I dug our conversation about the inherent trust involved with the highway system. *grin*


 

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Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
 
good landmark. You would have to be really tall to be the tallest at kama con, that's impressive.
 

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Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
 
Wow, that's an amazing story. I like your commentary on landmarks too! And I'm very surprised to know that a Jatraquero knows Cedrios in real life. A very shocking revelation indeed.

It was great fun to meet you at the OSC signing. And I actually got mentioned in a landmark post! Cool!
 

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Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 
JNSB, what a pleasure to get to know you better. And what a great idea for a landmark. You set a bar with the deconstruction -- fascinating. I was just bipping through and wasn't really in the frame of mind for a landmark, but you hooked me right up.

I'm sorry about the tough times. It certainly seems that you have made something quite magnificent of yourself, regardless. Glad you are here.
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Yep, very tall and very good looking. And very quiet -- both IRL and often here. But very insightful when he does speak, so it's well worth the wait.

Congrats on the landmark, JNSB.
 

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Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
 
I always wondered if you'd had another screenname before this one... now my questions are answered!
 

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Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
 
My word - that story about your dad and mom was heartwrenching to read, Jon. It must been exponentially worse to write.

(((Jon)))

Still waters run deep -

Thanks for sharing - including the deep, dark Cedrios secret.

My word.
 

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Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
 
Like so many others have said, wow. I love the format you chose for your landmark, and the content is also quite impressive. Thanks for sharing.
 

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Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
 
Hey, I've missed you JNSB! I was very happy to see a post by you, and a landmark one to boot.

I'm glad you're here, and I'm honored that you've shared such private moments in your life with all of us. Your landmark reminds me why I love landmarks so much - through them, people become something other than a screen name and a few witty remarks to me - they become members of my tribe.

space opera
 

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Posted by alluvion (Member # 7462) on :
 
cute!!!
 

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Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
 
Wonderful landmark.

Congrats on 1000!
 

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Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
 
Awesome landmark. Glad you decided to share all that with us.
 

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Posted by Derrell (Member # 6062) on :
 
Thanks for sharing that part of yourself with us. That was a well written landmark.
 

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Posted by JonnyNotSoBravo (Member # 5715) on :
 
Okay, FarmGirl, the Rush (the band) references are fixed.

Ela, you're right, I didn't mention you. Probably because we're at opposite corners of the US. I'm in Washington State, and you're like in Florida or something, right? Notice that I also didn't mention Icky, as well (no, not on purpose, I'm just noticing it ).

Yes, kq, I like ketchup. Especially on rice.

beverly, I think I'll check out that "renovelization" you mentioned.

rivka and Shan, yeah, it's kind of funny about me being quiet. In the house where I currently live with 13 other people, I actually talk quite a lot, make a lot of jokes and seem incredibly normal. However, I naturally revert to being quiet. It's a side effect from my childhood and having to be quiet so much when I was young. One evening, years after my first stepmother's death (my father has remarried again) I had invited some friends over to my dad's house for dinner. At the dinner table, I was so well-trained not to talk that I forgot to entertain my friends and they wondered if something was wrong. I didn't even realize I was being quiet until they mentioned it. Conditioning is very powerful stuff.

It was fun to meet so many of you at Kamacon. I told my housemates that I might not come back alive from Kamacon because you're all internet people and therefore, by stereotype, bloodthirsty predators. Thankfully, I was wrong (well, except for the baby eaters).

Thanks for everyone's responses! I tried to choose interesting pictures for the links - they're all work safe. Zotto!'s and celia's are my faves. Oh, wait - Frisco's is not work safe, but the rest are.
 

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Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
 
Thanks, Jonny.



Not having been around for the Cedrios times, I wasn't so shocked.

I still think that was very brave thing to do though.

I'd like to get to know you better - great landmark.

(Oh, and you are *tall*! Looking at that photo makes me wish I had been able to get to KamaCon . Stupid halfway around the world plane fares - you must have all had a great time. )
 

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Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
 
The story about your mother is so sad. That shocked me far more than the secret about Cedrios. What a traumatic experience for everyone involved.

I started crying, reading that.

Jonny, you're an amazing person. Thank you for sharing that with us.
 

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Posted by Cedrios (Member # 1744) on :
 
[Removed at request of author. --PJ]

[ January 10, 2009, 08:11 PM: Message edited by: Papa Janitor ]
 

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Posted by alluvion (Member # 7462) on :
 
*waiting for Maude*
 

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Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
 
I just have to say that JNSB and Frisco should never be allowed in the same room at the same time. It totally upsets the balance of hotness, creating cold spots across the rest of the country.
 

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Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
 
People are clearly studiously ignoring Kevin's post, which is probably the course of wisdom. However, my claim to wisdom is the ability to discern when and when not to eat paste. Therefore, I say: while the events of this landmark are certainly far more compelling than those in Slash's and my landmarks, it illustrates once again that family life is about as subjective as an institution becomes. Nor is it static - it changes constantly with the dynamics of new players, and even within the dynamics between old ones.

I'm sorry you guys have had such a tough time in your family. It sounds like no one came away without their share of scars. I can sympathize with your fear that the damage isn't over and that new ones will be appearing in your father's new family, Kevin. Knowing how families are, though, I can only hope that at some point the gambit of misunderstandings, as well as any deliberate acts of aggression and subterfuge (whatever they may be), can be worked out and both of you can have some semblance of filial affection for each other.

Besides, Kevin, it's REALLY hard to demonize anyone else on a public forum. Most people - those with any sense - reserve judgement before they cast aspersions on people written about, especially if those people can't defend themselves. You pretty much have to demonize yourself.

[ March 15, 2005, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: Ralphie ]
 

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Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
 
Ralphie, I think you're missing a "to" or a "d" in your last sentence. It makes a bit of difference which one it is, so you might want to correct it for clarity.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
Says 20 Ralphies

AJ
 

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Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
 
Thanks, Karl.

I type faster than I think. I actually do most things faster than I think.
 

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Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
 
Jonny, Leto says you have nothing to worry about from him.

"I don't like Kevin, but I don't hold it against someone who is related by circumstance. I don't hate lightly."
 

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Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
 
oh, Karl, that same room also saw some pretty hot Richard Berg action.
 

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Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
 
Which one is he?
 

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Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
 
Richard. Berg.

celia was undressing him just as we entered.

[ March 15, 2005, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: Kama ]
 

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Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
 
:: wonders what it would be like if my half-sister (whom I dearly love) and I were to get on a public forum and argue about the character of my step-mother. Decides that is a very unpleasant thought and I won't think it again ::
 

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Posted by Cedrios (Member # 1744) on :
 
[Removed at request of author. --PJ]

[ January 10, 2009, 08:10 PM: Message edited by: Papa Janitor ]
 

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Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
 

quote:

---

having learned how to fly at the Air Force Academy...at the time, they happened to be over the ocean...there were no life jackets, either.

---

quote:

---

for him to betray her memory now in order to make you feel sorry for him or make you think he is so brave or wise is absolutely unacceptable.

---

quote:

---

returning from a vacation in Hawaii. The plane was a small, single engine aircraft like a Cessna

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quote:

---

Floating seat cussions would have been nice.

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quote:

---

Our father is a wanted criminal who fled from the law for crimes of child abuse, among other things.

---

If he's a "wanted criminal," it wouldn't be hard for you to get him picked up and sent back to Washington State. Seems more productive than trying to convince a forum full of people you have admitedly lied to that you're telling the truth now.

Dagonee
 

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Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
 
Jonny, I'm glad I got to meet you at the PacNW signing in Portland, and even better, have dinner with you.

Wonderful landmark, very well written.

edited to add that while I have not met Frisco, I'm more than willing to believe that what KarlEd said is pure wisdom.

[ March 15, 2005, 04:56 PM: Message edited by: jeniwren ]
 

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Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
 
Good deconstruction, too. I think my landmark followed that pattern exactly, perhaps minus the famous-name-dropping. I knew it was missing something.

Thanks for the landmark.
 

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Posted by JonnyNotSoBravo (Member # 5715) on :
 
In the play Julius Caesar by Shakespeare, a soothsayer once warned Caesar, "Beware the Ides of March." Boy, was he right!

First off, I should say that Cedrios' reply is probably "just deserts" for my disruptive remarks in Lalo's landmark. But then again, maybe my landmark would not be complete without Cedrios' posts. He is a feature part of the landmark.

Although Ced has stopped speaking to me, I haven't stopped speaking to him. I wrote him a long email explaining this and how silly it is to stop speaking to family. For obvious reasons (exhibit A: this thread), it is sometimes better to avoid family, but never to cut them out completely.

Second, I cannot claim to Speak for Ced's mother. I have not claimed to do so. Her part in this was not necessarily her fault. Some events happened in her life that profoundly affected the way she interacted with others. I mentioned her effect on me, which is my part of the story. She did have my older brother and I sent to Catholic private school, which was a great education made possible by my father's earnings. Ced grew up as her natural son and so he had quite a different experience with her than my older brother and I had. I don't think he was treated particularly well by her either, mostly being foisted onto housekeepers so she wouldn't have to deal with raising him. But that's his story. This is mine.

Ced mentions a "plaster incident". That part was true. I mostly don't talk about it. The plaster didn't put me in the hospital or make me sick. I didn't even think about it until my brother Harlan brought it up years later when talking to my father and my current stepmother about past abuse. If it was abuse it was "benign" because it didn't affect me much, which is one reason why it wasn't included. Besides, it's embarassing. What 12-13 year old eats something that is clearly not supposed to be eaten simply because he's being screamed at to do so? I wasn't very smart about protecting myself.

I've been told my father was court martialed after the crash (I thought for negligence) because he was flying the plane. Maybe it was for different reasons. Anyway, he was acquitted. It might be a matter of public record so I will try to look it up. I don't know what a hired "hot shot" attorney would be doing in a military court. Maybe there was also another trial. I don't know. Ced bringing it up does renew my interest which could end up being a good thing.

skillery, I am just relating what my father told me about the crash, as I mentioned in the landmark. I had no reason to doubt the veracity of the story. If I do find out the particulars, I can email them to you or post them in the thread. I don't think I'm going to ask my father directly though just for you and cause more painful memories to surface. Sorry I can't satisfy your curiosity immediately. Your social skills continue to amaze me.

Dagonee,

I thought what you thought about the "wanted criminal" bit. Ced told my brother and I to write down possible abuses that we had suffered as kids (none of which was due to my father - unless you count him being away from home a lot) or he would tell the police where my father was and have my father arrested. He said he was doing it to get the kids away from my father and my current stepmother. I told him that it was extortion and I wouldn't do it. I also told him that my little brother (6 years old) and sister (3) were growing up fine in that household and I had not witnessed any abuse there. I saw no reason at all for them to be taken away. The next day Ced told my older brother that he would relent and not tell the police because he didn't want to do something that irreparable to his only father.

When Ced was asking us to write down stuff about abuse I asked him about the warrant (for the illegal incarceration) for my father that he said he had arranged. He said it had been issued by CPS (Child Protective Services). So I checked. The local police knew nothing about it. The state police knew nothing. CPS said it didn't issue warrants unless the child was currently in danger in their state. So it appears the claim was bogus just to get info from my brother and myself. I do not know about Ced's other claims because I have only heard about it from him. The fact that one of his claims was verified false certainly casts some doubt on the others, though. Ced is in pre-law and maybe you could give him advice.

Kama, thanks for the news about John. If you weren't already engaged to two other better looking guys, I would so be your housewife.

And finally, Ralphie, you are the best.(I so could have used your wisdom about eating paste during the plaster incident). I have not given up on Kevin, nor will I do so. Hopefully he will speak to me again someday. Personally, I thought your landmark was way better, although I don't think I would wish either of our families' dysfunction on anyone! There's a reason you are the coolest, and it was evident in your post.

Everyone else who posted, thanks! I'm sorry for all the "venom", "bile", etc. I console myself with the hope that it probably was entertaining. I know lots of you avoided mentioning Kevin's post; it was very polite of you. Sometimes I think Hatrack is too nice and too polite. I might be right about that, but it is still great to benefit from it and from all of you.
 

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Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
 
Eh. I was gonna say something about different people having different perceptions on the same event, but Ralphie beat me to it. 'Cause she's awesome. But really, when it gets down to it, I wasn't here when all the Ced stuff happened. I've heard a lot about it, but it doesn't matter to me.

I've talked to you and interacted with you, and met you in person. I like you. I'm not going to make judgements on incredibly personal events that happened decades ago that I have no way of knowing anything about. But you come across as a mature, reasoned, kind and well-meaning individual, for the most part. A little snarky sometimes, but hey, so am I.

Anyway, thanks again for the landmark.
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Jonny, some of us were hoping the mods would delete it.

And I hate to look like I'm talking to thin air. The voices in my head get really ticked when that happens.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
JNSB, you are a class act.

AJ
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 

quote:

---

Ced is in pre-law and maybe you could give him advice.

---

quote:

---

Your social skills continue to amaze me.

---

...or lack thereof. You put a lot of meat on the platter in this landmark, and I felt like chewing, rather than giving you a :pat: :pat:.

I don't need to know what happened to your mom, and maybe you're past needing to know too.

You and I both know that anybody who learns to fly at the Air Force Academy is the cream of the crop and isn't the type of person to make the serious lapses in judgement that your story suggests.

I don't think you're ready to tell your mother's story, nor do I think it proper to tell stories about other people's mothers.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
The story, as written, suggests no serious lapses in judgement. You have to add or infer something to extrapolate a lapse in judgement, from the story, as written.

AJ
 

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Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
 
For the record, Jon seemed to be about one of the most brutally honest people I've ever met. When we met in person (and he stayed with my hubby and I) he called me on a couple of my more facetious comments, which were in jest. It seems his moral stomach turns at any hint of fabrication.

Besides, my gut instinct (which is what I trust more than just about anything) tells me Jon is a straight-shooter. I would be extremely surprised to discover otherwise.

[ March 15, 2005, 10:06 PM: Message edited by: Ralphie ]
 

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Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
 
I believe Jonny's telling the story just as he heard it from his dad. It's a painful story, more so to write than it was to read I'm sure.
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
Jon, I don't know how I missed this 2 weeks ago when it was posted. *stamps foot!* And you even dropped my name!! How ungrateful and silly I am!

Just wanted to say that you're one of my favorite 'rackers here and that I miss you when you don't post much. I'm glad you posted a landmark, even though it's...touchy. *hug*

Anyway, I just want you to know that I'm glad that you're here and that I'm planning to get a job in Washington just so I can make cheese dip for you and Shan on a regular basis. (((JonnyNSB)))
 

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Posted by kaioshin00 (Member # 3740) on :
 
Just curious, what's the significance of "jonny not so bravo" ?
 

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Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
 
did I hear the words "cheese dip?

*drools*


 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
You know, like Johnny Bravo? (the cartoon) right?

Our Jon here is just humbly saying that he's not so bravo.

And Shan, oh yes. We need to get together again very soon.
 

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Posted by kaioshin00 (Member # 3740) on :
 
Oh ... I see.

Cool
 

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Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
 
Preferably, before soup making season is over. I officially stop cookin meals once it gets too hot for soup and casseroles.

Lemonade, cheese dip, and croquet would be fun, though, too . . .

*thoughtful*
 

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Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
 
I may have come to this late, but...

quote:

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Keep in mind, I would not have shared this private information had he not started slandering the dead and divulging this private information about my mother and about me. He brought this upon himself.

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quote:

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An old Latin saying says: "About the dead, none but good."

JH

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It's very easy to believe in "conventional wisdom" proverbs and sayings. Here is why someone might disagree with using them in an argument.

Also, think of American history. Do you think it's right to forget the abuses of the past? Do we ignore that Thomas Jefferson and George Washington were slaveowners? Or that Thomas Jefferson had children by one of his slaves but never acknowledged them? Do we forget the role of all those men in the massacre at Wounded Knee because they're all dead now? To turn your back on these things is to ignore large parts of how America was formed and who the people of the United States are as a nation.

The same is true of people. My history was in large part shaped by my stepmother. My past condtioning was one of the reasons I was so quiet at KamaCon, affecting interactions with Hatrackers. I guess I could have not posted it, but I think people would have known less about me. I understand the PC point of view and do not agree with it.

[ March 18, 2005, 12:58 AM: Message edited by: JonnyNotSoBravo ]
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
We are all shaped by our pasts. Surely we have a right to share them, if and when we wish -- especially if we do our best to minimize the harm to anyone else by so doing.

Jonny, it seems to me that you walked that line very carefully. There are many things you might have said, it seems clear, that you did not.

I applaud your openness. I applaud your tact and graciousness.

And I am glad to know you better.
 

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Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
 
You know what? If I come to think of it, you did the right move. You did not slander the dead, or disrespct them: every 'negative' move of theirs you tried to legitimise using logic and psychology.

Moeover, you did not start a family quarrel when you brother startd posting. You treated his statement with respect, as he did you.

And I didn't really have a point with the saying. My apologies, from the heart; and consider the statement obsolete. I was wrong to be so swift in my statment.

JH
 

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Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
 
Sorry to keep bothering your landmark.

When people died in those Shuttle disasters we reviewed the film over and over, from every possible angle, hoping to learn whatever we could to enable us as survivors to move foreward.

A fuzzy and incomplete tape viewed once does not do the dead, especially dead moms, justice.
 

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Posted by mimsies (Member # 7418) on :
 
All we have is what he remembered from what his dad told him long ago. His dad likely did not tell ALL the details regarding refueling etc.. And there is a pretty good chance that JNSB does not remember ALL the details of what his dad told him, but rather the things that stuck with him at the time.

This is clearly a painful topic for everyone INVOLVED or related and we who really know nothing about it are not likely to figure out exactly what happened. WE are not an investigative commission, and we do not have information/evidence enough to do anything but make uninformed assertions.

It is not our job, nor is it appropriate to be casting doubt nor making accusations on an old event that we know nothing about.

edit: It sounds like the case WAS reviewed by people who DO have the appropriate information.

-Mimi

[ March 18, 2005, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: mimsies ]
 

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Posted by tt&t (Member # 5600) on :
 
Awesome landmark, Jonny.

I don't think you need the "not so" in your name.
 

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