Hatrack River Writers Workshop: Swell or Shrink

This is topic Swell or Shrink in forum Open Discussions About Writing at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

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Posted by srhowen (Member # 462) on :

I am doing re-writes and editson my latest novel---I used to write so long I had to cut like crazy, but with these last two I have found I write shorter---70,000 some words on first drafts vs six figures.

So how do all of you write---do you add to your work in re-writes or subtract. King said something about second draft=first draft - 10%. (I think it was 10%) Anyway, that was once true for me now that I have had more experiance wiht novel length ficiton I find I need the oposite.

Shawn

Posted by Cosmi (Member # 1252) on :

i've always added on when i write a second draft. recently, i noticed something else i've been doing: when i reach certain points in the story, i see important subplots that i "missed" before, and make notes to add them in when i write the next draft. and i don't actually write the end of a piece before the second or third draft. maybe its not a good thing, and a little backwards, but i've always felt i didn't know enough about the story to end it before i've had enough drafts. for me, writing (novel length, anyway) has become a sort of layering process. weird.

TTFN & lol

Cosmi

Posted by PaganQuaker (Member # 1205) on :

My sense is that adding vs. subtraction vs. about the same depends on a person's writing style. I absolutely disagree with an across-the-board rule that any writer can and should improve subsequent drafts by cutting the lengths. To me that suggests a technique fitted to a writing style where you include whatever seems like it might work instead of doing that discernment as you're writing. For me, it's better to leave the stuff out in the first place if I can, so my subsequent drafts usually grow a little as I find points that are inadequately explained, characters that are a little too briefly depicted, and situations that aren't quite hairy enough.

Between the two of us, though, Stephen King is somewhat more successful a writer. On the other hand, I understand Asimov's final drafts were very similar to his first drafts (can't confirm this information).

Fortunately, I think it comes down to something a little simpler: Going through the story and asking yourself, when looking at a given passage: Does this rachet things up, or slow them down? Does this add depth that the reader is craving, or just detail that I haven't gotten on paper yet? Is there a chance I'm going to lose the reader to uninterest if I keep this in? Is it possible that they will lose interest because there's not enough detail if I leave it out?

Again, I try to apply these things as I'm writing, but that's probably not the technique that best fits everyone's style, King for instance.

Hope some of that is helpful. Please note that I try to be especially discriminating in what I put in my stories, whereas that doesn't seem to leak into posts, which would probably benefit from a cutting stage. <grin>

Luc

Posted by Kolona (Member # 1438) on :

Good question, Shawn. I guess I've always been a sparse writer to start and have to fill in the blanks afterward, so my stuff grows with rewrites. In fact, I had to divide my chapters which were running up to 6000 words, and those I've reworked so far are closing on 4000.

Presently I'm in a bit of a quandry because a book doctor/editor at the conference I attended suggested working a point I had had as an accomplished fact at the beginning of my story into something for the characters to discover along the way. The manuscript is already 85,000+ words, and if publishers shy from accepting too long a length from first-time novelists, I'm afraid this could be a problem. But I'm incorporating his suggestion, since I think it's a good one.

That's an interesting idea, Cosmi, about not writing the ending till several drafts have gone by. I never thought of that. It could eliminate some rewrites -- and some length for some of us.

Bodie Thoene, I understand, writes one day, her husband, Brock, edits it the next, and Bodie never goes back to it. I can't imagine writing like that. I'm a hard-core rewriter. Like you, Luc, I don't believe in across the board rules. We all write differently and I imagine we all rewrite differently.

quote:
Please note that I try to be especially discriminating in what I put in my stories, whereas that doesn't seem to leak into posts, which would probably benefit from a cutting stage. <grin>

I sympathize. Often I wish we could file posts away for later editing and sending -- but that's the rewriter in me.

[This message has been edited by Kolona (edited October 23, 2002).]

Posted by Hildy9595 (Member # 1489) on :

I find that during the rewriting process, I add to some areas and subtract from others. For example, the second chapter in my book was originally quite short. Then I received feedback that the character introduced in it needed some more build up. Upon rewrite, it became considerably larger and, I think, more salient to the overall story.

Later, however, I found I had a very full chapter that was just plain overwhelming upon re-reading it. I hacked away a subplot that did not add much to the overall story and poof! A much smoother chapter appeared.

However, the overall book is still hefty and I'm sure I'll have to cut more down the line. The problem is, I feel as though what is in there at this point is all relevant. This is where I'm going to have to depend upon an editor to tell me what I can ditch, as I am no longer able to identify those items myself.

I think everyone probably reaches a stage at which they lose their objectivity over their work and need a neutral pair of trustworthy eyes to provide advice on what should stay or go. Other opinions?

Posted by Rahl22 (Member # 1411) on :

Upon rewriting, I often cut and add things. Sometimes I take sections and completely rewrite them, or cut other sections out.

Overall, however, I'd say as far as word count goes:

2nd draft = 1st draft + 5%

But then again, I most certainly am NOT as accomplished as Mr. King, either.

Oh, and as for leaving things out for rewrites--I don't do that. I write it as complete as I can the first time through. I never say, "Oh, I'll go back and finish that during the rewrite."

My second drafts typically look very similar to the first, I just usually change a few stylistic things.

[This message has been edited by Rahl22 (edited October 23, 2002).]

Posted by srhowen (Member # 462) on :

Over the years I have gotten better at seeing things that need the axe, but I still very much like the next set of eyes that can point out hairs in the soup.

Objectivity is a hard thing to gain and I don't think even the big names are able to see the mistakes in their work----which is why so many big names have crappy books after a while.

Shawn

Posted by GZ (Member # 1374) on :

I fall into the category of drafts growing for the most part, but cuts do get made as well. Since the first draft tends to get written with a “when in doubt, leave it out” sort of philosophy, it needs plumped back up for full effect when I go back over it. Although I am getting better about putting in the level of detail I want the first go through.

Posted by DragynGide (Member # 1448) on :

Every time I go back over what I've written in a first draft, I find glaring plot holes. I think it's because I tend to follow a single plot thread when there are in fact several; but for whatever reason, sometimes it's description but more often it's entire scenes that I find should have been included. Lucky for me, I can go back and fill in the gaps.

Shasta

Posted by Doc Brown (Member # 1118) on :

When I do a re-write, every fiber of my being wants to swell. But I have found that my writing becomes much better if I shrink. Drastically. Today's readers demand a highly productive reading experience, and every word that is not right to the point wastes their time.