Hatrack River Writers Workshop: grammar and the ability to write?

This is topic grammar and the ability to write? in forum Open Discussions About Writing at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

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Posted by Enders Star (Member # 1578) on :

I was recently hounded by a fellow peer the other day and he made a comment that I have bad grammar skills, then he made a comment that I can't write for some reason. I wonder does grammar tend to affect someones ability to write well? When i mean write well I mean have the abilit to hold the readers attention, create clear pictures, not to mention the ability to creat suspense. What do you see a writer to have to make him/her good? I have grammar problems yes, but that can be fixed with studying and help, but if I was to let you read something would you mind telling me what you thought, without the constructive criticism? I mean no on the boards but would you mind asking for a copy by email? I want some sort of intelligent thoughts on it.

Posted by srhowen (Member # 462) on :

That's what the fragments and feedback section is for.

I have been asked at some of the conferences I have spoken at if good grammar matters---my response--only if you want to get published.

Yes, you can create good descriptions ect--but if you have blaring grammar mistakes the editor or agent is going to look the other way.

Editor in a publishing house has come to mean something other than a person who "edits" an author’s work. It is now a business title---the person who acquires things for publication, but does not do much with your book as far as improvements go.

quote:
However, you should have ensured that your manuscript was edited prior to submitting it to any agent or publisher. One thing you should remember is that the editor of a publishing house is not there to edit out your mistakes. That term, editor, is a title for a decision-making manager.

from the SFWA web site.

Thus your book must be as perfect as it can be to be accepted.

Even agents want as perfect as possible.

And those who use bad grammar in their speech may be able to use it correctly in their writing. I spell like a broken dictionary, (severely dyslexic), and am often the butt of jokes because of it. But I have been published, and now have an agent who complimented me on my descriptions and well put together story.

But spelling can be fixed with spell checker and a friend who is good at proof reading. Bad grammar is best fixed with a class.

Posted by Hildy9595 (Member # 1489) on :

I must agree 100% with Shawn. I've been attending many sessions with editors, publishers, and successful agents throughout the year, in preparation for submitting a novel for publication. They disagree on some things (content of query letter, for example) but are unanimous about the necessity for excellent grammar. If you send a story for serious evaluation and the first thing they see is poor grammar or a lot of spelling errors, it is going straight into the trash. They do not overlook those items, even if the story's plot and characters are expertly drawn and the most fascinating work since the Bible. That is a myth. They will never look beyond the poor use of the English language.

Why not? Simple. They don't have to. They are innundated with proposals and sample chapters from talented writers with flawless grammatical skills and they STILL can't publish everything they receive. So they are looking for a reason to weed you out. My advice is don't give it to them. Improve your grammar, or find someone who is willing to go through all your work and do it for you before submitting.

Good luck!

Posted by Chronicles_of_Empire (Member # 1431) on :

Grammar issues - as with other writing mistakes - are really something that you grow out of with experience of recognising them as mistakes.

Even good writers may have grammar issues before editing - but, really, it's all part of the experience.

How I write now is very different from how I wrote a few years ago. Perhaps creative exerssion can be said to be an evolving process.

But don't let any potential errors get you down at so early a stage. Everyone makes mistakes in whatever they're doing. The important thing is to learn to recognise them, so that they are not repeated.

Posted by Kolona (Member # 1438) on :

quote:
...if I was to let you read something would you mind telling me what you thought, without the constructive criticism?

My first thought to this was "To what purpose?" Constructive criticism is imperative to a writer because every writer, I dare say, is in love with his own work and has to really work to be objective--if there is such a thing, purely speaking. I know I've posted this before, but it says so much:

quote:
Criticism and dissent are the indispensible antidote to major delusions. --Alan Barth

This may sound harsh, but regarding your question, Enders Star, telling "what you thought" is part of constructive criticism, unless you're looking only for flattery. Keep in mind how very many people say they would like to write a book someday--and how many actually do it.

Writing isn't ideas only, it's writing, and doing that well.

[This message has been edited by Kolona (edited March 01, 2003).]

Posted by Kolona (Member # 1438) on :

OOPS Double posting Sorry

[This message has been edited by Kolona (edited March 01, 2003).]

Posted by SiliGurl (Member # 922) on :

I'm no editor or agent, so in this regard, my opinion isn't worth squat. HOWEVER, when I search Del Rey for posts to review I will absolutely, positively NOT read anything that is overflowing with grammatical mistakes. I'm not talking about split prepositions or some of the-- for lack of a better word-- "fufier" grammatical rules. I'm talking about the basics and good spelling. If I can't get through the first paragraph without 5 grammatical errors leaping out at me, I'll skip the post.

So, if I'm any judge, I would say, good grammar is necessary for effective story telling... because even if you have a good story to tell, if it's poorly written, no one will read it.

Posted by birdcastle (Member # 1508) on :

I totally agree with SilliGurl. If I'm reading something with blatant grammatical errors, I'm thinking about the grammar, not the story. So I don't read very far before I put it down.

birdcastle

Posted by littlemissattitude (Member # 1597) on :

There is one point I think is really important: Don't confuse the ability to use grammar correctly with the ability to name the parts of speech and point them out in a sentence. While I am not qualified to judge my own work, I have had countless people who should know - professors, writers, and others - tell me that I write well. However, I never had a teacher who taught me grammar. This probably has something to do with the fact that I attended grammar school (isn't that an ironic name for it?) and high school in the sixties and early seventies, when teaching methods had gotten quite experimental. Because of this, beyond being able to say that a noun is a naming word and a verb is an action word (plus finally figuring out what a conjunction is, thanks to Grammar Rock), I never learned anything about grammar until I took Latin at university. Don't mistake me; I am not proud of this. It is just a fact. The point is, I think that the use of proper grammar in writing is something learned through exposure to correctly written grammar, not through learning the parts of speech in an academic setting. I cannot explain why a particular sentence is wrong in a technical sense, but I generally can look at a piece of writing and fix what needs fixing. It's sort of like learning music by ear, I suppose. I could read by age three and have had my nose in a book more or less constantly since then. My belief is that I simply absorbed the use of correct grammar becaue I was exposed to it constantly from a young age.

Now, of course, I am afraid to post this for fear that I've made all kinds of grammatical errors. Oh, well. We all have our days. So, I'll go ahead and click that "submit reply" icon.

Posted by Enders Star (Member # 1578) on :

little miss I must tell you still to this day good gramar is very little stressed in class. So when an English teacher gives a writing assignment and is appauled, did I spell that right, by the grammar mistakes and so many they get mad. They shouldn't be angry with the students but with the school system. Good gramar and its usage is not stressed as much as it should be. I want to take a class in grammar but I don't know if they even offer it. I may have to check with my local college. Anyhow, grammar is important. If there is any editors out there who don't mind if there are to many or to few grammar mistakes then speak now. When I started writing in the 7th grade I had the worst grammar anyone could have. Basically because my teachers focused more on sentence structure and the basics. We studied metaphors and similies, not to mention a few other things in 8th grade. over the course of time when I got in journalism in high school I expected to be taught something. Instead I was flooded by articles for the newspaper. We don't learn a blasted thing! This is what annoys me. I know I have changed as a writer. When I first started my discription was very little and redundant, now I actually include discription in my writing and have learned how to handle it. I have changed for the better in the neccesities for writing, for the better, except in grammar. Now I know I shouldn't blame the system but I think that they play a major role in the object of blame.

[This message has been edited by Enders Star (edited March 01, 2003).]

Posted by Kolona (Member # 1438) on :

Right on, Enders Star! The lack of quality education has been one of my pet peeves for a long time.

Back in 1998, when Massachusettes had prospective teachers take a basic skills exam, 59% flunked. One clueless candidate said he had been "at a loss" when expected to write an interrogative sentence. And this was a fellow poised to teach our children! (Port Huron Times Herald, 7-12-98)

In Maryland in 2002, scorers for the annual essay-based Maryland School Performance Assessment Program had little time to read the essays and were trained to simply scan for "key words." If the key words were found, the students got credit even if the answer was incorrect or senseless. (Washington Post, 2/4/02)

What is encouraging in your case, Enders Star, is that you recognize your weak area and want to fix it, and moreover, you're aware of its source. And you're still farther ahead than a lot of those who are, to put it mildly, casualties of modern education. I'm a literacy volunteer, so I know the problems out there.

Corny or not, nurture your determination to get it right.

(I'll get the hang of this yet. )
[This message has been edited by Kolona (edited March 02, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by Kolona (edited March 02, 2003).]

Posted by Enders Star (Member # 1578) on :

I have been trying to improve slowly, but the English language has so much to teach and understand. I borrowed a grammar book from my teacher and she said I could hold on to it. Also to write my unnoficial novel I study American government. I'm trying to create my own government. Anyways it is very true, teachers should learn to stree more grammar with the books. If you are a high school teacher and are reading this, I hope you understand, and maybe will do something.

Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 1512) on :

I think good grammar is almost essential to good writing. Good writing must be clear, and if it's full of bad grammar, then it's going to be hard to read, no matter how interesting the story is. Littlemissattitude is right, though -- you don't have to be able to parse a sentence in order to be a good writer. You need to know certain things, of course. Good writing avoids faulty parallelism, misrelated modifiers, missing antecedents, and other awkward and unclear structures.

However, it's important to distinguish between grammar and usage. Grammar is simply the structure and rules of the language; you need to have a basic understanding of them, or else you're going to sound like an uneducated hick. Usage is the study of when to use certain things. It teaches you certain things to avoid, and it teaches you judgment so that you can decide when to bend the rules of grammar.

I took a class on English usage last semester, and my professor pointed out that studying grammar rarely leads to better writing. What you really need to study is usage. I recommend that you get a copy of Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage and some other books on usage and style. If you're in college, take a class on it. Learning usage will teach you good judgment, and you'll be able to look at a sentence and know why it's bad and how you can fix it.

Just my two cents.

Posted by Doc Brown (Member # 1118) on :

I think the situation is more complex than has been described. While I believe no writer should ever make a grammatical error, that does not mean that all writers must always obey the rules of grammar.

If you are writing non-fiction, say scientific reports, grant proposals, letters to your Congressman, then definitely you must follow the rules of grammar. If you are writing fiction, then obviusly there will be occasions when you intentionally break the rules of grammar; especially in dialogue. Who would want Sling Blade, Forrest Gump, or The Rain Man with perfect grammar?

But there are more subtle times when you should violate the rules of grammar. Once you have proved to your reader that you are the master of your story, and the English language, you should use the rules to help you tell your story. Sometimes that means adopting them for new purposes.

Here's the first line of a paragraph from my current book:

quote:
Altitude four thousand meters, and still no Americans on the scope.

This is terrible grammar . . . it is not a complete sentence! I've left out both the verb and the essential modifier to make this sentence a proper topic for a paragraph. I should have said: "His altitude was four thousand meters . . ."

I wrote it that way I did to better fit the action of the scene. The character is thinking terse thoughts at high speed. I want the reader to feel a bit of that. The reader already knows that this character's actions will be the topic of the paragraph, so altitude can stand on its own.

Yes, a writer must master grammar. But I believe that a good writer must go beyond that. A good writer will know when to use the rules as they are, and when to improvise new uses for them.

Posted by teddyrux (Member # 1595) on :

Ender's Star
Grammar and spelling are important. If you want to learn grammar I suggest you pick up a copy of "The Elements of Style". The paperback version will cost you about $10. It can also be found here, http://www.bartleby.com/141/index.html Don't take my word for it. E.B. White, Stephen King, David Morrell, and Charles Osgood all recommend using it, among others.
"Omit needless words." William Strunk Jr.

"People care more abotu the ones they love than they do themselves."

Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 1512) on :

The Elements of Style is actually kind of outdated, though it's still good. I would recommend something like Style: Ten Lessons in Clarity and Grace by Joseph M. Williams

Posted by srhowen (Member # 462) on :

The best easy grammar book is Grammar for Dummies. The trouble with the other books is that they will make your eyes roll back in your head and your body jerk if you don't have a good grammar base to start with. There is also an online e-mail grammar mail ist that is very useful--it's called daily grammar.

Do a search for it. I don't have it marked anymore. They send you a daily grammar lesson and it has nothign to do with style ect.--it if just pure grammar. The pages are easy to understand, and taken in small bits you would be surprised how easy it is to learn. My teen was failing english until he used it.

Shawn

Posted by Liz (Member # 1594) on :

Kolona wrote: Right on, Enders Star! The lack of quality education has been one of my pet peeves for a long time.
Back in 1998, when Massachusettes had prospective teachers take a basic skills exam, 59% flunked. One clueless candidate said he had been "at a loss" when expected to write an interrogative sentence. And this was a fellow poised to teach our children! (Port Huron Times Herald, 7-12-98)

Ah, wonderful. Another person who would like to blame teachers for the ills of society. Thank you so much, Kolona.
A number of my friends, graduates of pretigious colleges, have had a difficult time with the Mass. test. It is an extremely difficult test. If you think that teaching is about knowing everything, you are very wrong. You used a lovely stat from 1998. it is 2003 now. Where are your statistics? It is so easy to use statistics to prove a point.
Your comments both offend me and, at the same time, make me realize that you know little about teaching if you can make general comments like these. The worst trait a teacher can have, and there is no way to test it out, is arrogance.

My suggestion to you: try it some time. Then come back and tell me what a piece of crap I am and that my ineptitude is bringing down the grammatical skills of the country.
By the way, don't worry. Attitudes like yours are changing education back to learning the basic skills so you can pass a big test. There won't be a lot of thinking encouraged, and we won't have time to figure out if our teaching style is reaching all the students in our class. We will be too busy preparing for tests.

Liz

Posted by Liz (Member # 1594) on :

I apologize for the sarcastic tone of my previous post, but it is difficult to read that I am a bad teacher, when I have been up since 5 AM getting ready to teach children.

I teach in a state which is cutting budgets left and right, but the cuts seem to affect mostly the poor students. The free breakfast program-gone as of next fall. A special reading grant to help kids with difficulty learning: gone already. There will be so many more cuts to come.
I watch as billions of dollars are funneled into this war, and I know exactly where those dollars are coming from.

So, you hit a tender spot, and I am sorry for my reaction.

Liz

Posted by Enders Star (Member # 1578) on :

Please Liz, we aren't blaming teachers but merely pointing out that most teachers don't stress grammar as much as they should. The last time I had a grammar lesson was in the 8th grade, 2 years ago. Anyways, without getting out of hand Liz and not trying to cause an argument, how much grammar do you teach in your class?

Posted by srhowen (Member # 462) on :

Grammar needs to be taught in the lower grades--and at home! Period! And let me ask you--how much do you remember from school? Can you sit there and think of each lesson taught? Most likely not. Let's see in Jr high--my grade to teach--"Yo, teacher lady, hows'it go'n taday?" "I ain't got no paper today." I could fill this BB with the bad grammar that comes out of the mouths of almost every student.

The ones that do speak properly--they get teased ect for being a smarty and so on. Jr gets an F in English---mom or dad are on the phone screaming that their boy or girl is a good kid and why are you picking on them? (BTW Jr wore a bullet proof vest and announced at the start of class that he was going to shoot some people today)

80 to 90% of the students in any given class will chew gum and ignore you, go to sleep, pass notes, stab the kid in front of them with their pencil, scribble in their note books, kick desk legs in front of them, mouth off, or not do the work. And many school systems have a "pass" rule so Jr doesn't feel bad.

Too many schools are "teaching to the Test" which means most of the year is spent working on memorizing answers to a state test so the state can show how good they are doing. These tests don't stress real learning.

Grammar--heck---most Jr high and up math classes let the kids use calculators! I stood in line one day balancing my check book (by hand) a woman behind me said "How you know that's right without a calculator?" Oh, gee, I can do basic math?--maybe?

Good grammar comes from A a good start with parents who care---my kids do not say ain't, nor do they use double negatives. We use "big" words and work at improving word use skills everyday.

Teachers do teach grammar---but it's like the calculator thing--as long as the kids can pass the test--the school systems don't care if they can do the basics.

With 30 kids and up crammed in a room----teachers are babysitting more than they are teaching. And that has nothing to do with their skill level.

Oh and did you know that most Americans are buying duct tape and plastic to seal their homes against bio-weapons?

Laughing? You should be. But the media and "statistics" prove it. One or two teachers quoted do not make a nation of poor teachers. And no matter what they say--teachers who took the test--wonder which ones? I am an English Major--wonder if the Chemistry teacher across the hall would do as well on the English portion of the test--I know I wouldn't do very well with the Periodic Table of the Elements--but he would.

Statistics are interpreted for the benefit of whoever wanted the test results in the first place. I just saw on the news that 79% of Americans support the war in the Middle East—say what? I live in a military area and I can’t find anyone who thinks we should do it. I’d like to know what 79% they are talking about—how about 79% of those surveyed---but just who were they? The same with any statistic.

Don't kick the teacher---start kicking at home.

Shawn

Posted by Hildy9595 (Member # 1489) on :

Shawn, are you referring to our new national policy of Duct 'n' Cover? What, you don't think that will save our doomed behinds? Shocking.

I do agree with the teachers on the board, though I am not one myself. Education simply isn't valued by those who govern our country...and I don't just mean the current administration. They pay it a lot of lip service during election time, but programs for schools have been, and continue to be, the first items on the chopping block.

The day they pay teachers in the US even half as much as they pay someone for dribbling a basketball or swinging a bat is the day I believe education is a priority in the United States.

Bravo to you, Enders Star, for caring enough to work on the problem yourself! It's just sad that you have to.

Posted by Enders Star (Member # 1578) on :

Shawn settle down and breathe. You can't blame the home when its not just the parents fault. Some parents, I have noticed didn't get the chances for a great education, like my Grandfather. He had to leave school to get a job. He couldn't help my mom learn proper English. My Mom had trouble in school, she knows the basics as I do and understand that you don't say ain't and "me and Jan" etc. But she doesn't have the education to teach me what I need to write with good grammar. You see you can't blame the home for this Shawn. I just don't wee where they are mainly at fault. Some paretns and grandparents are able to but don't, but you can't stomp on the majority. I just don't agree with you Shawn that's all.
I commend you hilds! Smeone who can bounce a ball and get payed several millions isn't worth what a teacher can do for a teenager or child. Teachers aren't appreciated as they should be. Companies shouldn't be paying several million for some jock who runs with a bannana (football) or can swing a titanium club at a white piece of plaster. In the classroom is where it counts and its the teachers that are the actual classroom. It just makes me very angry when I see this happening.

[This message has been edited by Enders Star (edited March 03, 2003).]

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

quote:
The day they pay teachers in the US even half as much as they pay someone for dribbling a basketball or swinging a bat is the day I believe education is a priority in the United States.

The day people suggest this is the day they need an economics lesson. But don't worry, this lesson has only one question.

How many teachers could our entire society afford at that kind of payscale?

Don't get me started about 'teachers', particularly the ones in our public schools. They're probably at least half the reason I detest humans so strongly. Which is why I'll teach my kids myself, thank you very much.

Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :

This is what happens when I don't read the forum on Sunday.

<SIGH!>

I'm closing this topic because it is getting a bit heated and because it is moving away from being relevant to writing.

If someone wants to start another topic for people to list recommended places to find out about grammar and usage, that's fine.

The discussion of teachers and government and education ends now.