Hatrack River Writers Workshop: Narrative Poetry

This is topic Narrative Poetry in forum Open Discussions About Writing at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

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Posted by Brinestone (Member # 747) on :

So I've written a 7.5 page narrative poem that's basically a fantasy Romeo and Juliet of sorts. The rhyme scheme is complex, and I've spent over two years getting the rhymes and rhythm perfect. I felt more pride finishing this than I have felt finishing anything that I can remember. Maybe it's not perfect storytelling-wise, but the rhythm and rhyme is as close to perfect as Shakespeare ever got--maybe closer. The rhyme scheme is a near-impossible one that I adapted from Bilbo's poem about Strider/the Silmarils in FotR (Many Meetings chapter).

So I submitted it to the little campus sf/f magazine because I knew they published poetry, and that they had published narrative poetry before. It was rejected, which is fine. What irks me is that it was rejected because, apparently, I rarely rhymed correctly, and the rhythm was off most of the time. If anyone wants to read this, they can (I'm not begging for critiques), but I'm sure there's nothing wrong with it.

[/rant]

The point of this post wasn't to rant. What I want to know is whether anyone here knows of another fantasy magazine that publishes poetry, especially narrative poetry. I'd be very thankful for any help.

Posted by srhowen (Member # 462) on :

Every writer's first reaction to a rejection is to sputter--WHAT! there's nothing wrong with this. That may be true--or it may not be.

How many rejections have you gotten on this? If this is the only one, then that may be their standard rejection that they send to everyone. Or you may need to step back and have someone familiar with poetry crit it for you.

I don't know where you could sub it to, my poetry has never seen the light of anyone's desk but my own.

Shawn

Posted by Gen (Member # 1868) on :

Strange Horizons (online at http://www.strangehorizons.com/; they're SFWA pro market) says they accept poetry, although they also warn that anything over 100 lines or anything rhyming (they're soured on doggerel) will be a hard sell. I don't think any of the other pro markets accept longer works, but if you run a search at spicy green iguana there's a number of semipros that might. (They're online at http://www.spicygreeniguana.com.)

If the rhyme scheme is complex and unusual enough, the people you submitted it to may have been judging it by the standards of a more familiar form... one possibility.

Added later- The soured on doggerel comment comes from their observation that rhymed poetry would be a hard sell because "the editors have seen too much doggerel verse, and this has admittedly soured us toward rhymes."

[This message has been edited by Gen (edited January 21, 2004).]

Posted by Brinestone (Member # 747) on :

Shawn, like I said, I'd be fine with criticism and rejection if it made sense. I don't mean to brag, but I can hear rhythm where most people can't. It must be the twelve years of piano I took; I don't know.

And the rhyme scheme is discernable even if you don't catch the internal rhymes.

It's

./././.A
./.A./.B
./././.C
./.C./.B

The first stanza is:

The apex of Mount Gaedruk holds
A house of trolls and one of men.
They stayed inside through winter's gales,
But when the pale spring came again,

And so on.

Okay, "holds" and "trolls" aren't a perfect match, but they're pretty close, and they're internal. And "gales" rhymes perfectly with "pale spring" if you're reading it out loud. I did make use of some of these "trick" rhymes for the internal ones. I don't think that's cheating.

Thanks for the links. I'll have to try them out.

Posted by Balthasar (Member # 5399) on :

quote:
...anything rhyming (they're soured on doggerel)

Hmmm, I wonder what Robert Frost would think of that?

Posted by srhowen (Member # 462) on :

You also have to step back and not take rejections personal--they are not personal. (Well, a few are) But I doubt this one was--to me it has the ring of a form rejection. Like the ones that you get that say--this doesn't meet our needs. Then goes on to say why they reject most works--and I can look and see that my work doesn't have the flaws they speak of.

It's the letter they send out--the A letter. A letter that is copied about a million times, sometimes not even straight on the page, and sent no matter what the reason for rejection. Obviously, as a magazine they want a less complex (to them) rhyming scheme. Or the editor missed his AM jelly donut and picked up your submission and growled at it.

Move on.

Don't sit and stew over one rejection. They are not personal.

Shawn

Posted by Brinestone (Member # 747) on :

Yeah, that's really the question I have, Balthasar. I mean, we all agree that Shakespeare, Milton, Frost, Dickinson, Donne, Coleridge, etc. were geniuses, and we applaud their careful use of rhythm and rhyme, but it's totally taboo to do that today?

Posted by Brinestone (Member # 747) on :

Well, see, I worked for two and a half years on the production staff of this particular magazine. We always give critique. You send us fiction, you'll get three good critiques back, at least. The problem is, the whole staff is made up of volunteer students. Just because she's poetry director doesn't mean she knows anything about rhythm and rhyme.

It wasn't a form letter. There was writing on it, and it said what I told you.

Posted by Jules (Member # 1658) on :

quote:
... we all agree that Shakespeare, Milton, Frost, Dickinson, Donne, Coleridge, etc. were geniuses, and we applaud their careful use of rhythm and rhyme, but it's totally taboo to do that today?

Probably because most people who attempt it don't have the talent to put good content into it at the same time, so editors get tired of reading the junk & blame the form for it...

Posted by srhowen (Member # 462) on :

OK, go ahead be angry. It can still be a form response, and expecting a crit every time you send out a submission is, frankly, foolish. If you get one, it means the editor liked something about your sub and took the time to respond personally.

I'll say again, forget it. It means nothing. I've got 65 rejection letters I can send you--if I wasted this much time on each one, the fretting, the "they are idiots," the why didn't they crit the story--I'd still be on the first agent I sent a query to.

Wait till you get the ones that say I loved (your name)'s voice, but---and then reject making a publishing offer. Those will really get you in an uproar.

So maybe the editor is an idiot. Go ahead believe that if it will help. But what is this anger at her doing for you? Is it hurting her? No, it is hurting you.

I have rejections that say "No thanks." scrawled across the top of my query letter--not a form (printed paper)response but still a form respose. I have one that I thumbtacked to the wall--this poop (read other 4 letter word) doesn't sell anymore, do some research, will you!?! And that came from a top literary agency in NYC.

I have ones from publishers my agent sent to saying the plot is too twisted--my reaction--SAY WHAT? It is not.

But does that do any good? Does it help me publish the book? NO.

That is what that editor saw. I can't change how they FELT about the work. But if I have a tantrum and yell about how they are wrong, well, then I lose a day of writing, because everything I write that day will suck.

All it does is hurt you.

Move on.

Ask yourself why the opinion of one person matters so much?

And in the reality of rejections and submissions--you will very rarely get a crit--if ever. That's not an editor's job, whether you did it or not, or the staff of this or that magazine does it or not--it is not the norm.

Shawn

Posted by ccwbass (Member # 1850) on :

Actually, if someone could manage to sell a return to traditional forms as being a hardcore rebellion against the rap-spoken word poetry that is popular today, markets would open up.

'Course, only the hipsters could get away with it. I can see it now - angry sonnet slams:

My love doth bloom upon a tree, dog; Yo!
Da muthuh-effin blossoms take da air,
Oh, shall my monster jimmie get a blow,
While sunlight marks the highlights in your hair?
etc.
etc.

Sorry.

Couldn't resist.

Posted by Brinestone (Member # 747) on :

This post wasn't accomplishing anything.

[This message has been edited by Brinestone (edited January 21, 2004).]

Posted by Kolona (Member # 1438) on :

As I've said several times on these threads in acknowledgement of the great degree of subjectivity in the publishing business -- it's a crapshoot. Like it or not. That's not to say writing talent and storytelling aren't important, but even the best are rejected and sometimes the not-so-greats are published. As the phrase that is so easy to hate says, "Get over it."

You've only begun to market this poetic narrative. Give it a chance. Maybe, since this rejection is bugging you more than usual (I'm assuming you've been rejected before. Otherwise, I'll be jealous. ), maybe this is the one for which you should pay for a critique. You might have to do some research for a likely candidate, but I'm sure it can be done.

I doubt that I'd ever attempt what you've done in writing a poetic narrative, Brinestone, and I'm not one to say whether you've done it well or not -- well, maybe only as far as MHO is concerned -- but I'd be willing to take a look at your narrative. For free, of course, since that's probably what the critique will be worth. But I'd strongly suggest getting a worthy professional to take a peek.

Oops. You posted while I was typing. At least I don't have to be jealous.

[This message has been edited by Kolona (edited January 21, 2004).]

Posted by Hildy9595 (Member # 1489) on :

Brinestone, I wish I knew more about poetry and its markets than I do, so this would be more helpful. I can offer this suggestion: you may want to check out various university presses and see if they are accepting. There are quite a few of them and hopefully one or the other would recognize the quality of your work (which, I am trusting in your confidence, it has). Also, if there are any writers conferences in your area (do a Web search or check out Writer's Digest), try to find one with a poetry component. I've noticed that poets are very supportive of one another and frequently willing to recommend promising writers to their editors.

Perhaps if you go at this from the poetry/literary magazine side first and fantasy/genre component second, you'll be able to find more markets.

Good luck!

[This message has been edited by Hildy9595 (edited January 21, 2004).]

Posted by Brinestone (Member # 747) on :

Hmmm, Hildy, I hadn't really thought of that. I'm sure there must be a market for this somewhere, I just don't know where yet. I'll keep looking and keep polishing it while I look.

Kolona, thanks for the offer. I may end up taking you up on it, but for now, I've got two RL acquaintences reading it (friends, I've found, are rarely objective).

And Shawn, if you saw my post above, I'm sorry. I know you were just trying to be helpful.

Posted by srhowen (Member # 462) on :

I wasn't trying to be condescending--It seemed you had latched onto the rejection. I did that once and didn't write for almost 5 years. And when I got the one about this "stuff" doesn't sell--etc., I kicked things. My foot hurt for a week. (big steel army surplus desk)

Sorry if it came across that way.

Shawn

Posted by ccwbass (Member # 1850) on :

Brinestone:

quote:
we applaud their careful use of rhythm and rhyme, but it's totally taboo to do that today?

In a nutshell, yes. Traditional form can only be employed by authors who have a history of getting published. It's an indulgence that publishers grant people with a known audience.

Caveat: If your subject matter is totally in line with the editorial slant of the magazine in question, you have a chance, but this is primarily true only with very political magazines looking at very political poems.

Don't let the lack of a market get you down. Honestly, unless you want to write greeting cards there's no money in poetry anymore, especially form poetry. Robert Frost may be taught in the universities, but he wouldn't get a second look from a modern publilsher.

Posted by EricJamesStone (Member # 1681) on :

There is definitely a market today for poems with "careful use of rhythm and rhyme." But that market is not the poetry market; it's the song lyrics market.