This is topic Cadence, anyone? in forum Open Discussions About Writing at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.


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Posted by Doc Brown (Member # 1118) on :
 
Any wise person understands that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. On the subject of cadence in writing, I know so little that I must be Public Enemy Number One.

I know cadence can add power to writing and pleasure to reading. I can sometimes spot good candence when I see it, as in the first two lines of Jeff Buckley's wonderful song "Hallelujah" which you may have heard in the movie Shrek. They frown on copied song lyrics here, so I'll just provide a link:

Hallelujah

The words chosen here are perfect. There must be a thousand ways to say the same thing, and a hundred that would fit the rhyme scheme. But any changes to these words weakens the cadence. Even without the music, the words themselves rise and fall with such psychic power that the score practically composes itself in your head.

I'm trained to be a humble engineer, not an artist. Give me solid rules about vectors or adverbs and I'll follow them faithfully to the end of the world. In this way I'm becoming pretty good with writing technicalities like POV and rising tension. But not cadence.

I've looked for the hard and fast rules of cadence, and I haven't found anything. I assume these rules do not exist. But perhaps there are tips? Guidelines? Exercises to improve one's skills?

Does anyone know anything about the arcane subject of cadence?

[This message has been edited by Doc Brown (edited May 02, 2004).]
 


Posted by Kolona (Member # 1438) on :
 
Cadence, flow, fluency...you're right, Doc, when it's present, reading is all the more pleasurable. As the mind's eye helps a writer to write scenes visually, the mind's ear helps arrange prose into a smooth succession of words.

On a much smaller scale than writing books and stories, proper cadence enhances the naming of babies. Number of syllables in first and last name, noting where the accents are in the words, avoiding ending the first name and beginning the last name with the same vowel sound, and so on. Some names are so perfect, while others are just names. Functional, but nondescript.

Cadence in prose has similar considerations, but because of the mass of words, as opposed to a few names strung together, it's harder to pinpoint. Reading aloud or at least very deliberately in your head is the best way to catch its presence or absence.

Tips? Check out "Sentence Fluency" on page six of the following site:
http://www.nwrel.org/assessment/pdfRubrics/6plus1traits.PDF
So far that's the best info I've seen on cadence, or fluency, or flow, as I call it.
 


Posted by MaryRobinette (Member # 1680) on :
 
That's a great link, Kolona. A piece of advice that someone once suggested on the subject of cadence, is to do what artists do in school. They copy the great masters. I wish I could remember who suggested this, but the execise is to open a passage of your favorite prose, and copy it thinking about the words as you write, not just the mechanics of copying. Then to turn to your own work. The theory is that the rhythms will carry over. I haven't tried it, but I know that when I read certain authors I tend to retain more of their flavor than others.

A similar exercise is to transcribe conversations.

I find that reading out loud point out a lot of my fatal word choices.

Mary

[This message has been edited by MaryRobinette (edited May 03, 2004).]
 


Posted by Lord Darkstorm (Member # 1610) on :
 
Cadence is more of a understanding of word flow. One book I have read that actually mentioned it specified that it was something more associated with poets than writers, but writers can do better with it than without. The brief chapter mentioned that it is something you must learn by paying attention to the word choices and how they sound together. The author even mentioned the study of poetry as one way of improving the cadence of your writing.

I wrote a bit of poetry back long years ago, but never got into it the way some people do.

Anyways, I would suggest reading it aloud...seeing how it sounds. I've started doing that myself, I find quite a few problems that way. You might already do that, if so just pay more attention to the sound, over the content.

LDS
 


Posted by Jules (Member # 1658) on :
 
I can't write poetry to save my life, but I feel I have managed to improve my writing by paying attention to the rhythm of the words, particularly in the most tense sections.

I managed to write a section a while back where every reader I tried it on (admittedly only 2 of them) stumbled over a particularly strong word because it broke a rhythm that had been built up over the last hundred words before it. That's a kind of effect that makes people notice what you're saying...
but those hundred words took me a day to write. Obviously you can't write an entire novel like that

Of course cadence is about more than just rhythm, it's about the sounds of the words, alliteration and rhyming, onomatapoeia (sp?), etc. And that's something I haven't spent much time working on. It's probably next on my list of things to do to improve my style, after I master differentiating between my characters' voices (currently a big problem for me -- most of them tend to sound like me).

 


Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
 
I submit that even better than reading your own work aloud, having someone else read it to you (if you can get anyone to do that) will show you where the problems are. It can be a very painful experience, though.
 
Posted by Doc Brown (Member # 1118) on :
 
Thanks for the great ideas, everyone.
 
Posted by Doc Brown (Member # 1118) on :
 
So no one has some mathematical formula for cadence? Like: "Start with a one syllable word, follow with a three syllable word with the accent on the second syllable, follow with a two syllable word with the accent on the first, ..."

I'm sure that reading aloud is good practice, and having someone else read it aloud is better, and that practice makes perfect. That would allow me to make subjective judgements, like "Sentence A is better than sentence B."

But what I'd really like is a perfect cadence formula. I'd like to be able to feed two sentences into the formula and get the result: "Sentence A scores 7.2 on the cadence scale, while sentence B scores 5.1."

I would also like the formula to tell me where sentence B is weak and where sentence A is strong.

It may seem like a lot to ask, but I think this is reasonable. Music has been analyzed in such detail that we can tell a major scale from a minor, a march tempo from a waltz, a quarter tone from a semi tone. In music, we know that a piece that switches time signatures every few notes will violate our sense of rhythm. Surely someone has studied written cadence in a similar fashion . . .?
 


Posted by Kolona (Member # 1438) on :
 
Maybe in poetry, but prose? There's too much subjectivity, not to mention style differences. For instance, I'm sure cadence shows up as evil twins in Hemingway and Dickens. And cadence in a deathbed scene would be different from cadence in a breathless pursuit scene, mainly long sentences versus short ones, although that can be tweaked to fit, too.

And the same story or scene can be written in various types of cadence. Hemingway could have written Great Expectations in his own style, true to his own inherent cadence, while Dickens could have done The Sun Also Rises and it would have had the Dickensian feel to it -- all a function of syle, which includes cadence.

Even in poetry cadence can be different things. The most obvious example I can think of is Boots by Kipling:

quote:
We're foot-slog-slog-slog-sloggin' over Africa,
Foot-foot-foot-foot-sloggin' over Africa--
(Boots-boots-boots-boots-movin' up and down again!)
There's no discharge in the war!

Everything in that verse and in the rest of that poem forces the reader to hear and feel marching, yet Kipling could have written it with a different cadence, a more typically poetic one and still had an effective poem about soldiers marching.

Cadence in prose is the same, only less dramatically or obviously done.

I'd say that grammar-checkers and things like the Flesch Reading Ease evaluators are attempts to do what you're suggesting, Doc, but as has been discussed elsewhere on this site, those things are not exactly on the mark. It all comes down to having or developing an ear for cadence, I think.

But then, that's just me. <lifts shoulders in hopeless shrug>

[This message has been edited by Kolona (edited May 07, 2004).]
 


Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
 
Doc, as I was reading your latest post requesting numbers and formulas, it occurred to me to offer the suggestion that you sit down with a piece of music that fits the story you want to tell (in your mind, at least), and analyse it. Come up with a formula for the cadence of that piece, and then go through your story and make the words fit that formula. It would be an interesting experiment, if nothing else.

(I thought of this before I got to the end where you talked about analyzing music, etc, by the way.)

As I was writing the above, I thought of how Shakespeare used iambic pentameter in his plays, and wondered if that isn't all you really need to do, Doc. If you don't like iambic, there's trochaic, anapestic, and dactylic. Or you could move around among them.

Again, it could be an interesting experiment.
 


Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :
 
As KDW has kindly pointed out, we have just as many tools for analyzing meter in lyrics as we have for analyzing rhythm in music.

And they're no more helpful in the end. After all, a composer can easily tell whether or not his tempo is that of a march or a waltz. But that doesn't tell him whether it is a good march or waltz. Likewise, we can tell whether our prose is in iambic hexameter or amphimacer...but we can't tell whether it is effective by applying mathmatical analysis of the meter.

I'm sure that it would be possible to gussy up a program that would analyze a passage and spit out how well it adhered to various meters...but what would be the point?
 


Posted by Lord Darkstorm (Member # 1610) on :
 
quote:
I'm sure that it would be possible to gussy up a program that would analyze a passage and spit out how well it adhered to various meters...but what would be the point?

I could think of one good reason. It would sell like hotcakes, even if it wasn't that good.

I don't think I'm going to worry about rhythms in my stories right now. I'll settle for enjoyable any day.

LDS
 


Posted by Kolona (Member # 1438) on :
 
And so we have the chicken and the egg all over again. Write an enjoyable story, and the enjoyment factor will at least in part be a measure of rhythm or cadence; pay attention to rhythm or cadence and you'll write a more enjoyable story. <more Twilight Zone music>
 
Posted by Doc Brown (Member # 1118) on :
 
Survivor and Lord Darkstorm, I would absolutely buy such a program.

Thank you for the suggestions, Kathleen. I will give it a try. But it will probably hurt my already dismal productivity. I haven't got an ear for iambic, or any other rhythm, unless I am hearing it read aloud. When I do hear it, I can tell when an entire passage is bad but have trouble spotting the offending syllable.

I can detect the rise and fall of accents in the written word, but only subconsciously. I'd love to know how to develop a conscious sense of cadence.

I also wish I could dance (sometimes).
 


Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :
 
If you can do it subconsciously with work being read out loud, then close your door and shutter the windows, and start reading your own stuff out loud!
 
Posted by Eric Sherman (Member # 2007) on :
 
"As I was writing the above, I thought of how Shakespeare used iambic pentameter in his plays, and wondered if that isn't all you really need to do, Doc. If you don't like iambic, there's trochaic, anapestic, and dactylic. Or you could move around among them."

I think OSC said somehwere that he uses iambic pentameter for certain scenes. It possible that I'm wrong, though.
 


Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :
 
He occasionally uses a semi-verse couplet, usually with an iambic meter, to close an important scene or to create an epigrammatic effect for a given line.
 


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