Hatrack River Writers Workshop: poetry/music/etc in writing

This is topic poetry/music/etc in writing in forum Open Discussions About Writing at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

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Posted by dpatridge (Member # 2208) on :

what say you?

i'm considering involving my poem "Month In a Moment" as a song in one of my stories... a character would be listening to the music and be reminded of something...

so again, i repeat, what is the general opinion of the good people of these boards on this device?

Posted by Keeley (Member # 2088) on :

When I read, I tend to skip any songs/poetry/etc. inside the story unless they tie in directly to the plot and are short. It's no reflection on the quality of the song or poetry. It's just my own impatience.

Now, if it's set aside at the beginning, like the verses regarding the One Ring in LOTR, I have a tendency to not only read it, but sometimes I try to memorize it.

One ninja-bot to rule them all,
One ninja-bot to find them...

Okay, maybe that's not quite what Tolkien wrote.

BTW, I'm just trying to be funny. Not trying to slam you, dpatridge. Didn't even realize I might until I re-read it. If you're offended, I'll take the verse out.

[This message has been edited by Keeley (edited December 01, 2004).]

Posted by wetwilly (Member # 1818) on :

In principle I'm all about incorporating other forms of writing into prose.
In reality, though, I'm just like Keeley; I skip 'em when they're in the text unless they're only like 2 or 3 lines (two or three; sorry). I also like verse at the beginning, or used as a chapter or section header, but in text I usually skip it. It doesn't necessarily bother me, but I don't get a lot out of it.

Wonder why that is. Any psychology people out there who know?

Posted by Jeraliey (Member # 2147) on :

Yeah, I can't say I have much patience for stuff like that either. I tend to skip over them, and I only go back to quoted verses if they're referenced soon after. Otherwise, I tend to forget they're even there.

Posted by ChrisOwens (Member # 1955) on :

I tend to read it, but it goes over my head. If it is read aloud by the writer or as the writer intended it, then it puts whole new life into it.

Even Tolkien's stuff I didn't get (Except for the One Ring poem), until the movie. For instance: "Where is the horse and the rider?"
I read it and forgot it. Then Theoden put such life in it while getting dressed for battle...

Then again, that's just me.

Posted by djvdakota (Member # 2002) on :

The REAL problem with Tolkien's inclusion of poetry, is that 90% of it had NOTHING to do with the storyline. It was all about the world and culture building. So the first time you read the book you pore desperately over the poems searching for meaning in relation to the story--but find none. So you skip over the rest, hoping you're not missing out on anything significant.

I'm of exactly the same mind as above. If you're going to do it, point out just a stanza that's particularly poignant and meaningful to the character.

Posted by J (Member # 2197) on :

The answer I see is almost no answer at all: use it if it has the effect desired.

Tolkein is a wonderful example.

If you skip all the poetry in Tolkien because you're searching for the storyline, then you're missing out on everything significant in the story.

Take a moment to read "J.R.R. Tolkein: Author of the Century" by Dr. Tom Shippey of Washington Univ. St. Louis.

OSC also addresses the issue (albeit offhandedly) "Character and Viewpoint"

[This message has been edited by J (edited December 02, 2004).]

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

If you're Tolkien, then go for it.

If not, then don't.

Posted by Lord Darkstorm (Member # 1610) on :

Short answer for me...don't bother. I've seen poems and songs in a few books I like to read. I skip them. I haven't noticed missing anything necessary in the story by the act of skipping it.

If you are a poet, and very good...as well as the poem/song having complete relevance to the story (not just because you wrote it and you found a place to work it in) then maybe.

Prime example....Dragonlance. Waist of space.

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

Waist of Space? That sounds like a funny book.

Posted by Lord Darkstorm (Member # 1610) on :

The long songs that Weis and Hickman felt should be distributed throughout their books could have been dropped and saved a few pages. They waisted space in the book by adding it, since I only attempted to read one. They then proceeded to rehash everything important the song was an attempt to relay.

By not reading the songs and poems, I missed nothing.

Posted by dpatridge (Member # 2208) on :

whoa... i knew i was a completionist, but it seems that there is a universal disagreement with the idea of including verse within prose.

i actually tend to enjoy it if done well. now, i don't know if i'd call what i'm planning "well," we'd have to see, if it turns out poor, i'll remove it, completely, find another way of getting an emotional response out of my character.

however, i really like the idea as it is forming in my head right now.

also, as for me being a poet. yes, in fact i'm already published as a poet, although it isn't going to do me any good to announce such when i send in my first contemporary fiction or sci-fi manuscript

am i a good poet? that is a rather subjective question. i like what i write when under poetic inspiration, but i dislike what i force out. but then, i've yet to publish anything i've written under inspiration, while i have gotten a few of my forced ones published... *shrugs*

oh, and keeley, i admit it did strike me at first, before i read the name of the posts author, that someone was getting on me about those blasted robots again, which is NOT going to happen! but when i went back, i realized you were just joking, and no, it didn't outright offend me at any time... *shrugs again*

well. i'm going to use it when i get to that point in the story, which may not be until after i return from my mission... hopefully i get a job and get money and get out on my mission soon...

i'm currently allowing myself to become side-tracked, i'm actually going to learn how to write music and compose, arrange my poem into lyrics, and make a hobbyist recording of it... hehe, i have no clue why i've taken a sudden interest in music, but i've learned to do what my mind wants to do

so i'm going to be a composer, lyricist, and vocalist! haha, hobby only, i'll probably never manage to sell a single copy, which is why i'm thinking of copylefting it and distributing it freely on the internet. and i will probably never make another song in my life, or if i do, it won't be a frequent enough thing to ever be able to sell anything.

Posted by Lord Darkstorm (Member # 1610) on :

I can explain my lack of interest. Although I have written some poetry in the past, rarely do I find poetry truely interesting. Poetry is a break in the story for me, and so far, none of it had real relevance to the story.

I'm not saying leave it out...just don't be upset if it doesn't have the impact you are hoping for.

Posted by Pyre Dynasty (Member # 1947) on :

Keep it short and I'll read it, although I don't like reading poetry. (although I love it being read.) as long as I can see there is story on both sides of it I can trudge through.

Posted by Kickle (Member # 1934) on :

Thought I'd jump here and say that I always read and usually enjoy poems that are part of a story. Of course, I will fess up, I do read poetry and write it.And along time ago I recall I reading an anthology of Tolkien's poetry. I actually think it is admirable to creating your own songs instead of using old ones that have been seen thousands of times.

[This message has been edited by Kickle (edited December 13, 2004).]

Posted by wbriggs (Member # 2267) on :

I skip the poetry or lyrics unless they are VERY short. I didn't with Tolkien. I am not sure if this is because I was young and patient, or because I was so in love with Middle-Earth I would have read recipes if he'd included them. Probably both.

I am having the same issue with fables in my WIP. I've decided to put a SHORT one at the beginning of each section, and if I have to tell any others, put them in conversation, keep them to bare summary only or just the relevant details, like if you were talking to someone and said, "you go walking alone in the woods like Little Red Riding Hood, you're apt to find the Big Bad Wolf, you know."

Every time you leave the world you're telling me about and give me something else, it's a barrier for me. It may be worth it, but it's a barrier.

[This message has been edited by wbriggs (edited December 18, 2004).]

Posted by dpatridge (Member # 2208) on :

but it's NOT "leaving the world"

the song is made specifically with the story in mind...

now, when someone does put something that comes from other sources in, that is distracting. such as i am currently reading "The Long Walk" by Stephen King, and at the beginning of each chapter, he includes some stupid quote or something from world-knows-where. so far, and i've read five chapters or more, these have had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the story, he just put them in there for some whim.

however, if something really truly does not fit, it is not in my mind to include it, that's just ridiculous.

Posted by wetwilly (Member # 1818) on :

It may not be leaving the world, but it is leaving the story. It makes your mind stop concentrating on the events of the story and start concentrating on the poem, and then it takes a little while to get drawn back in and create that illusion of reality again.