I have determined women set their rules, and will change them all at a moments notice if they feel any man has figured the rules out.
What I would LIKE to find out is, what methods do others use to do a reality check to make sure your opposite-gender characters seem real?
For instance, I have a character who is male. He became a monk at age 16 (this is fantasy fiction, not set in modern day). When faced with his first act of intimacy with a woman, I had written him agonizing over this decision which would have a profound impact in his life.
A male friend of mine, who is also a writer, said that was a girlie point of view. He told me that when men get right up to that threshold of intimacy, there is nothing else on their minds - that their minds literally go blank except their need to complete the act. And then when they are done they think of food.
Now, this seems somewhat like a cynical generalization to me, but who am I - as a woman - to question a man's statement about how men think?
I'm a bit at a loss as to how to double check this kind of information. Should I presume that one man can speak for all men? Or should I take a random poll among several men and average the results?
How do YOU handle this sort of research?
If you were to take a man who reads all the time, that man would more likely think about what they are doing and the concequences of doing it. Of course the number of men falling into this category is small. I've know many guys who think about sex the majority of the time. Needless to say, they are the most abundant variety.
If you want your character to agonize over whether he should have sex or not, he just needs to act like a non-typical male. He would most liekly not be a popular type of person, and it would need to be backed up with some reason why he would be concerned. Religious beliefs or concerns for not having children would be two I would believe. So before he reached that point there would have to be some justification why he would not just agree and do it.
Your character is not impossible, it just sounds like he is lacking the proper reasons to go against the norm.
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Your character is not impossible, it just sounds like he is lacking the proper reasons to go against the norm
If the character is a monk in the tradition of most Western religions then it is the norm for him to remain celebate. So one would have to write in a lot of reasons for him to even consider having relations. I don't think this is a male/female thing so much as a cultural thing.
But if your character is serious enough about being chaste, he has to agonize well before any but the most naive female character would be likely to start agonizing. If he doesn't agonize before, say; being alone with her, or sitting next to her, saying "I'm in love with you", certainly before kissing her and so forth, he isn't really ever going to get around to it.
As a chaste but not celibate type, I start thinking about where a situation is going well before a girl would do the same. Otherwise, I simply wouldn't be chaste. I might say that I'm trying, but all the trying in the world doesn't help if you put off the "agonizing" till that part of your brain is turned off.
Now, if something happens to break the mood, a guy might "agonize" after he'd already decided to be alone with an attractive girl in a situation of temptation. Like, if he's Catholic and she has a big crucifix in her room, something like that might cause him to agonize when faced with the immediate prospect of intimacy. But typically, for any given "act of intimacy", the "agonizing" has to be done well ahead of time for a guy, otherwise it just won't get done at all. It might be done later if the guy really got taken by surprise, like a naked woman jumped his bones in the middle of the night or something. But I think most guys already have a plan for what to do in that event (it isn't the same plan for all guys, I'm just saying that this will not surprise a guy as much as the relative probability of it happening would tend to suggest).
In a more general sense, if you're writing a POV for any character and don't feel confident that you know what the character would think in a given situation (and a character of the opposite gender would tend to be one of those situations), then get a few people that would know to read it and tell you how convincing it is. Unless, of course, those people aren't going to be part of your audience. If this is a romance, for instance, then there is almost no need for the guy to think like a guy. If it's...quite prurient, there's very little need to make it convincing to men with much practical knowledge of being chaste.
Don't take an average. See how many people mention it independently. Note whether they rank it as being more implausible than other things they caught. See if what they say makes sense.
For instance, I've never been on the "threshhold of intimacy" with a woman and felt any reluctance to go further. I do have some specialized reflexes for situations of that nature, but those don't involve conscious consideration to leave them active. If they're bypassed or inactive, that's that. Any conscious control over whether or not I get intimate has to be exercised in advance.
I'm not sure how different this is for women, but it is different.
A religious monk from the middle ages was more of a schollar that chose learning and faith over normal life. For this type of monk, their seclusion and restraint from sexual contact was supposed to allow them to focus on their learning without distraction.
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A religious monk from the middle ages was more of a schollar that chose learning and faith over normal life. For this type of monk, their seclusion and restraint from sexual contact was supposed to allow them to focus on their learning without distraction.
I've spent a proper amount of time developing my monk's inner conflict over his attraction to this particular woman. It just seemed out of character for him to suddenly blow off all the concerns he has had, just because a guy told me that's how guys are.
I guess it goes to show ya, men don't always know what other men think. (Women, on the other hand, are quite predictable, once you understand the pattern of logic...) heh heh.
My thanks to the male input I've received here. I suppose the answer to my original question is that it pays to have several men review the situation when I have questions on the proper response based on gender.
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He told me that when men get right up to that threshold of intimacy, there is nothing else on their minds - that their minds literally go blank except their need to complete the act.
This is a perfectly believable point of view, but only in a narrow window of time. I'd say some (not all) human males go through a phase like this somewhere between ages 12 and 18. It does not last a lifetime, and there is a strong biological component.
But I agree with others here that there is also a psychological component that comes from personal experience. Maybe the character hasn't seen a woman since he hit puberty and didn't even realize he was experiencing sexual urges. Maybe the character has developed a selfish streak and doesn't think of others until all his personal urges are satisfied.
Regardless, I think either case is plausible. Depict the scene as you envisioned it and I would find it believable. I would also believe the description suggested by your friend, though that would change my feelings about your character.
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And then when they are done they think of food.
Also believable, but not the only possible choice. Some will think of sleep, others will think of booze, money, golf, whatever. And a surprising number will find themselves hopelessly, heartbreakingly in love with the women.
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I guess it goes to show ya, men don't always know what other men think. (Women, on the other hand, are quite predictable, once you understand the pattern of logic...) heh heh.
Logic? Illogic I can believe... I have determined women set their rules, and will change them all at a moments notice if they feel any man has figured the rules out.
On the general question: female viewpoint characters don't come naturally to me. I think I do ok at the Maria von Trapp-like spunky but naive young woman, but the others are a challenge. I don't write many of them. Aside from my just-finished novel, I think I've done 4, ever.
I think I can tell if I got 'em right. Maybe it's different coming from my side: I can imagine someone saying, "no woman would every say/do that!" but it's obvious things like using power tools for food preparation, or dropping cigarette ashes on the carpet and claiming it's good for the rug. Or being proud of bodily noises.
I can think of 2 female characters that did the same male habit: cigar smoking. The Mayor of Terminus in Foundation's Edge was one. I swear, I think Asimov wrote the Mayor as a man and then did a search-and-replace on gender pronouns to make him a her. Then there's Fairy Hardcastle in Lewis's That Hideous Strength. There was no way you could mistake Hardcastle for a man: she was an un-feminine woman, but she was definitely a woman, and in fact reminds me of a policewoman I used to know.
There was a line in a movie that I didn't like so I forgot the title, when a male writer was asked how he wrote women so well. He said that he took a man and took away all reason. (or something like that.)
Unfortuanately everyone has stereotypes about how male / female characters should behave, whereas in real life many people act completely the opposite to how their chracter would be written in a traditional novel (for example I have a very girly friend who takes great pride in her belching ability). I think interesting characters go beyond stereotypes.
Jaina, if they're onto the rules we'll have to change them with provisos! But then change them back, that way they'll all get really confused and the original plan will still be in place HAHAHAHAH (mad insane laughter) The insidious plot will survive.
[This message has been edited by limo (edited April 19, 2005).]
[This message has been edited by limo (edited April 19, 2005).]
"Put you some fake plants all around the house. Women love that s---."
"No, really -- I _love_ the way your hair looks! Women like that clean-cut look. Trust me on this."
Women get to make any rule they want, at any time, and change it and declare the new rule was the ONLY rule all along. Until they need a new rule.
And THAT, my friends, is the ONLY rule.
Men on the other hand only think 2 to 3 steps ahead and wing anything beyond that. In the same situation a woman is in, they will be more concerned if they made a fool of themselves than care what others are thinking.
Yes, this is stereotypical mostly, but it is more than often the case.
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... they will be more concerned if they made a fool of themselves than care what others are thinking.
Umm... isn't this the same thing?
As for the chess thing, I know what MY problem is... I get to a certain point with it, and then I get bored and think, "Who cares?" This prevents me from being much of a crossword puzzle nut, too. Actually, what I secretly end up thinking to myself is, "This stupid XXX is a waste of time. I could be WRITING instead of doing this stupid ____. (fill in the activity).
Please note the careful use of the phrase "tend to" in all statements.
The general setup you describe seems workable to me if, as other people have said, the character is that kind of guy. Otherwise, not so much. Also if you're talking about the general "is this right? Should I be doing this? I won't be a virgin anymore!" kind of worrying... yes, I would tend to think of that as a "girl" thing, unless you're talking about a significantly different society. There is a much, much greater social stigma attached to girls having premarital sex than guys. We are the sex which can get pregnant from this kind of fooling around, and though most of the guys I know are very moral about this, there's still a world of difference between "I got somebody else pregnant" and "I got pregnant."
Other than that... *shrug* Guys are people. Treat them as such, and you can't go too wrong. Same goes for guys writing women.
I'm told I write pretty good men in general.
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... they will be more concerned if they made a fool of themselves than care what others are thinking.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Umm... isn't this the same thing?
Nope. I read it as "... they will be more concerned if they made a fool of themselves [to themselves] than care what others are thinking."
Men vary, and hormonality is part of it. But there is also a big difference in how men and women go about being chaste. I know I've said this before, but it bears repeating. If a guy is really all that set on being chaste, he doesn't get into the situation in the first place. If he does, he's already finished making his decision, and it would take something pretty significant to make him change his mind. Even if I didn't plan to get into that particular situation at that particular time, I probably already decided what I was going to do if I got there (whether I've been realistic in my planning or not is a different matter).
I don't know that this is the heart of all differences between men and women, but it is probably near the heart of at least one of them.