I can read about sex in romance novels, but let's just say that the romance genre, as a whole, is lacking in plot. I guess I want to have my cake and eat it too.
So why no explicit sex in adult scifi and fantasy novels? Why does the wind have to blow and then it's the next morning? What about sex makes us not want to show it explicitly?
--Mel
Thanks for the heads up, though. I might give that book a try.
Sorry, Bruce.
On topic, I agree with Rahl. I think that sex scenes are skipped over to appeal to a wider audience. Not everyone likes knowing every little motion and smell of our protagonist's experience under the sheets.
I myself am still on the fence about which is better. I know what I like, but...
I don't mind racy scenes in literature. I rather like them if they are well written. But how far is too far when dealing with the broader audience?
I'm interested in knowing how much is enough for most people. I'm curious as to what other people will say because I'll be dealing with this very issue in my own story I'm writing.
Yeah, they can be interesting, and they can reveal character, or advance the plot, or whatever, but most of the time they don't.
Purely my opinion, of course.
A well-written sex scene can give incredible character development. In the gamut of character exploration, sex scenes blow away action scenes. In fact, it's logical to say that a sex scene can reveal more about a character than any other type of scene (take the reader deeper, if you can handle the metaphor).
But the people who pay for written spec fic are often younger, so to reach that market you have to pull your punches. I meant that as a cliche, not a metaphor.
So in spec fic we've seen very few sex scenes that weren't pornographic. This leaves you with a choice. You can either:
1) Write for legacy, expressing yourself as best you can, never mind the markets that will take your work.
- or -
2) Write for the broader "Harry Potter" market, pulling the curtain on opportunities to develop your characters and affect your readers deeply.
Is it ironic that the choice to include appropriate sex is more artistically pure, and the choice to intentionally restrict sex is more like prostitution? I think it is.
[This message has been edited by Doc Brown (edited May 16, 2005).]
Then I edited it. I guess, in the end, I know what the market can accept. I just wish it were different.
I just finished a trilogy by Mercedes Lackey, who isn't bad at romance in her stories. she's got fantasy plots and themes and almost inevitably a human connection in there somewhere. I give her kudos for writing the only homosexual romance story that really affected me like a romance. But always, always she skips to the next morning and this last time I was just so disappointed.
To put it in an exceptionall crass but accurate way, she did a great job with the foreplay but withdrew at the last minute.
Good point about the young audience. I hadn't thought of that.
I guess, in the end, this makes for one more reason to be a writer. When I write myself, and for myself, I can write whatever I like with no holds barred. So maybe I have to clean it up a bit for the publisher, but that doesn't mean I can't write what I want on the privacy of my own hard drive.
Also I am one of the ten people left on the planet who strongly feels that there should be no sex before marriage.
I read all the science fiction I could get my hands on beginning at around age eight, so I do want to know that my daughter, say, would be able to read what I've written without getting sex ed. Sex is everywhere anyway; I think the world will go on turning without my contribution to the smut pile.
So do you as readers feel that you cannot enjoy a story that is clean?
And I don't think I sacrifice character development by doing this. For example, in my WIP, I have 2 sex scenes. No body parts described (and as Beth points out, that does get dull). In the first one, I describe how the POV character feels about it. I honestly think that scene will make a reader's breath catch in the throat.
In the second, I describe around it, and you get two things: the woman is willing to believe anything the man tells her, and the man is a selfish liar who is doing her a very dirty turn. Boy, what a fun marriage they're going to have, when she finds out what "contagious" really means. In this, I didn't need anything more explicit than "nether regions" and "touching her all over" to get my meaning across.
[rant]...and I really get annoyed when authors go the other way. For one thing, the characters are almost never married, and there's often BDSM, murder, incest, or gay sex; often, regardless of the quality of the story, I wish I hadn't read it and put such images into my mind (Kaleidoscope Century, Angel Station, Strange Days, Stars in my Pocket like Grains of Sand -- jeez, Delaney, I thought this was supposed to be SF!).
For another, I was trying to read about spaceships and aliens; if I'd wanted porno, I'd be in a different section!
And finally, I don't find explicit sex to really go with high literary quality: quite the reverse. Tyro X tells us the precise state, appearance, and activity of the various organs. Hemingway says, "The earth moved beneath them."[/rant]
Autumnmuse, we're probably the majority! We just don't get quoted much!
But I see Christine had a question of WHY explicit sex doesn't go as well as explicit other things. I don't entirely know. I know that I would rather evoke other things too (don't tell me every aspect of how you cut up your steak; just tell me that it was the tiniest bit burnt and every bite was perfection). But maybe it just seems undignified to tell every detail -- just like it would be in real life.
[This message has been edited by wbriggs (edited May 16, 2005).]
I kind of think of good characters in books as my friends. I might care very much what they think, and might be interested indeed in the exciting thing that happened while they were at work. But I really don't need and don't want to know exactly what they were doing in the bedroom. I'd feel like a voyeur.
There is also the posibility that some authors are not comfortable writing them. Since sex can be very personal to some people, they may not feel it is their place to make it something public.
I could see my work going about halfway if it was primary to the story. Regarless, I don't want to do anything that would slap me in the realm of Porn, or Harlaquin...
So far I've been happier when the main characters are given a little privacy because my imagination is usually more romantic than the words on the page. Or perhaps it's because I personally lose the use of language when I'm in the throes, so a...um...deep penetration POV doesn't seem very real to me.
Have you read Anne Rice's take on Sleeping Beauty? I can't remember the nom de plume she used, but the books verge on soft-core porn.
[This message has been edited by MaryRobinette (edited May 18, 2005).]
quote:
When you're talking about love and trust, or hate and invasion, or whatever, the most important part is emotional and mental, not physical. Once you establish that an exclusive relationship does exist, there is no need to go into detail. Or if you are talking about an attack, there is also no need to go into great detail. In fact, talking about emotions and thoughts is the strength of writing over other media. I say, exploit it.
Okay, I'll also quote something I wrote in a more contentious discussion of the subject. If you want the rest of this thread, you'll have to find it yourself.
quote:
A sculpture of the human body, or the anatomical sketches of Da Vinchi, are technically less accurate than an actual corpse filleted and covered in plastic. But the act of doing that conveys contempt for the body, even hatred. The act of mummification, while strange to us, can be seen as a affirmation of life after death, while the lines of Da Vinchi's drawings communicate a sense of appreciation.When we portray sexuality, we are acting upon it, and upon the way that our audience percieves it. Do we present it as a contemptable act? Do we make it a subject for mockery? Or do we communicate some form of respect or care, even dignity and reverence?
The most accurate portrayal has to be true the the point of view in which it is portrayed. I made the point above about people in less sophisticated societies. Less detail is more accurate, sometimes. And a lot of detail? It communicates concern and interest primarially in the details mentioned. Are we portraying a character as being mostly interested in positions and techniques? Or is the character more concerned with emotion, passion, trust? Does the character think mostly of how to best accomplish pleasures? Or is relationship and togetherness more important?
What we concentrate on in our portrayal is what the audience will percieve as the driving motivation of the character. When we make the climactic moment the resolution to stand together against all difficulties, a decision made while driving home from a disastrous evening and sealed with a forgiving word and a kiss, it has a dramatically different impact from portraying the climactic moment as the discovery that this sexual relationship can produce a fifteen minute orgasm.
The only thing that can make sex not silly is context, and to create a context in writing - to make the readers feel enough that the gross physical manipulations don't seem laughable - has so far eluded me.
*shrug* One of these days, maybe.
I too am often turned off by graphic or explicit scenes, especially violent ones.
But I have read love scenes that were needed and were done decently. OSC's Treasure Box has a couple of examples. Also, I had no problem with OSC not showing us every detail when characters in Enchantment "got" together.
quote:
I think the reason is because sexual intimacy is incredibly special and precious to me, and I have had experiences with reading/watching ugly pornographic things that left a taint in my mind, and caused me to not enjoy sex as much in my personal life.
I think the reason I don't enjoy sex as much in my personal life is that people spent so much of my life telling me it was dirty, personal, not to be spoken about, and not to be had. The only information I could get on the subject came from questionable sources because real people with real experiences never shared them.
Now, I have two further comments. First, on the personal side: I've heard this argument before, but I don't buy it. What's more personal than the third person limited point of view in which we get every thought, every feeling, every reaction? There's a narrator in my head! Isn't that awfully personal?
As to the pornography....
quote:
I'm not writing pornography.
There is a difference, and a significant one, between pornography and erotica. You're probably going to be in one or the other category if you describe much of a sex scene, but pornography is dirty, without emotion, it's *ucking, basically.
Erotica, on the other hand, is the culmination of strong emotions in the physical. It is making love, as autumnmuse put it.
Perhaps this distinction is not significant to anyone else, but it is to me. I would never write pornography, either. I would, however; write explicit and erotic sex.
Sex scenes in books or movies UNLESS a specific event is occuring that must be included to advance the plot or reveal a very important aspect of a character is nothing more than group voyuerism.
You may be absolutley facsinated and absorbed by the details of say Albert Einstien- but would you willingly stand at his window and watch him have sex?
JB Skaggs
Anyway, it would seem that many of the "erotica" markets pay very well for erotic fiction. And if they're paying well, that must mean there is demand for it. This doesn't mean you have to write erotica, though... But you could if you wanted to.
During the last flash challenge (FC6), I was very proud of myself for NOT writing a sex scene between two women. Oh, I had one in mind, but I knew it would have been utterly gratuitous. Rather, I strongly believe that if something -- anything -- doesn't add to the plot or character development, it's not needed. So, I didn't write that scene. But I knew what happened.
[This message has been edited by HSO (edited May 17, 2005).]
First of all, let us make it clear that in no scene, from sex to murder, does the author spend painstaking moments describing every teensy tinsy little thing that happens. That would be boring.
Second, a really good sex scene spends more time describing how the character is feeling (emotionally and physically, which get inttertwined in a sex scene) than on the specific movements of the bodies. You might mention that he touches her breasts, but the instead of going on about exactly how, with how much pressure, and for how long, you stop and say that the woman feels an amazing warmth spreading through her body. (If you've done a good job with the relationship buildup, we should feel that this is more than passion, but also love for the person she is with.) The added benefit here is that the reader can imagine his or her own preferences when it comes to these details.
Third, I keep hearing a lot of problems with the relationships that culminate in sex...sex before marriage, for example. If you find this morally wrong, then don't you have a problem with this anyway, even if the sex is not described explicitly? As to more black and white morally dispicable things such as violent sex (rape), I agree that this would be painful to experience with the character, but perhaps getting a taste of what she feels....like I said, a good sex scene concentrates on emotions. In this case, though, she doesn't feel the warmth. She feels bile in her mouth and she's afraid, in pain. You can make it seem really explicit by simply going through those ranges of pain and fear. Actually, though, the closest I ever came to describing a rape scene was to describe an *attempted* rape scene in which the woman gets away in time.
Fourth, the silliness. This is a cultural thing, I'm afraid. I can't help you. The culture is the reason that when my husband and I attended our pre-cana class (The catholic church has you do either a full day, a weekend, or several evenings, depending upon the parish.), the couple that did the sex talk giggled every time they said "sex." It drove us nuts, actually. Here they were, supposed to be talking about intimacy within the bounds of sanctified marriage, talking to adults about to get married, and even they couldn't keep a straight face. I was disgusted with them, actually. I have no idea what they even said as they spent so much time giggling. I think they suggested that we talk to our partners about it. Good advice, but the giggling made it awfully hard to take seriously. The undertone was, "This is a dirty subject barely ok if you're married."
quote:
Sex scenes in books or movies UNLESS a specific event is occuring that must be included to advance the plot or reveal a very important aspect of a character is nothing more than group voyuerism.
Everytime I make a post someone else comes in and says something else!
Seriously, though....
Let's talk about advancing plot. If romance is neither a main plot nor even a sub plot, then it would be pointless to put in a sex scene.
If it is a main plot or a sub plot, then the sex is often the climax of the whole dang plot! And at the same time, it *is* really fun to watch. (Come on, let's be a little honest.)
I'd like to add though, that I love writing sex scenes. I think it's fascinating how personalities and circumstances change what could easily become boring into the best fun that exists on the planet. Still, I find I just don't need them in most of my stories. They usually aren't necessary to the plot and tend to bog things down with unnecessary details.
On a side note, have any of you looked at Harlequin's Online Reads (don't ask me why I've been reading them)? No sex scenes. Not even when it gets racy and uses a sex toy as a plot device. It's probably because they would need to put up a "18 or older" warning at the front like a porn site, but still... it makes me wonder.
In line with that:
a Fox News article on the blurring line between chick lit and romance
and
a Fox News article on the growing popularity of Christian romances
[This message has been edited by Keeley (edited May 17, 2005).]
Imagine this:
Day 1.
Enkidu grasped her _______, and she moaned. Then she ... (500 more words)
Day 2.
(500 more words)
Day 3 ...
It was a powerful image, the six days thing, showing Enkidu's super-human wildness and Shamhat's determination to subdue him by Giving Him an Education, but if everything got described, I'd skip to the end. Yawn.
quote:
Also I am one of the ten people left on the planet who strongly feels that there should be no sex before marriage.
Not even close! Whatever gave you the impression that you were in the MINORITY on this one? Now, there may only be ten people left in this country (other cultures are difficult to discuss in this case) who actually waited, but you are clearly in the majority of the people who believe that one should wait until marriage to have sex.
Here's the thing: A combination of religious and logical principles do suggest that waiting until marriage is a good thing. This has been the teaching for a looonnnnggg time. (I won't presume to suggest that I am familiar with all of history, though.)
I do know one thing about history: Puberty used to happen closer to 17 or 18, about when people used to get married. Now, puberty happens at about 12, whereas marriage happens, on average, at something like 26 or 27.
Hmmmm....so why aren't people following their beliefs? Why do 80% of women cry their first time? Perhaps it is because we are given 14 or 15 years of the most powerful temptation imaginable, often with no end in sight.
Sort of an aside, but I was rereading through these posts and I just felt the need to say that
Rather than the gods trying to destroy Enkidu- if there would have been a scene of sex for six days with no other purpose it would be useless save as sex for sex's sake.
In Mario Puzo's books sex is very much a important part of the books- becuase it showed the other side of mafia men- their gentleness or sadism etc. But he didn't ever go so far as to decribe the juices, sounds, and grunting actions.
Shogun was the same way a lot of sex scenes but done tastefully without vulgarity.
Real sex from real life is not pretty- it's filled with awkwardness, physical flaws, rashes, cramps, smells, bodily accidents, bizaare conversations, threats, pleads, promises, and insults. When writers write sex scenes they don't write real ones- they write fantasy scenes where everyone is pretty and sexually responsive.
It's like fight scenes in movies where a 16 year old girl weighing 80 lbs is able to beat up six two hundred lbs trained mafia men. It's just not beleivable and after a while you get to where your sick of it.
It is a matter of taste.
I don't know where you got the puberty stat, but I would really double check it against birth and marriage records. The stat is somewhat true for upper class females who did not endure the social stresses of the lower classes. For southern aristocracy girls married around 19 to 25 while the commoner was married off starting around twelve or so.
JB Skaggs
[This message has been edited by JBSkaggs (edited May 17, 2005).]
With sex, it's pretty much the same. Either it seems to come out awkward and laughable, or it's gross and pornographic.
If the sex is important to the story somehow, then by all means put it in but it should be appropriate to the tone of the story. A well-written rape scene could add a deeper level to a story involving rape. Likewise a story involving romance could be "more real" if it involved a loving, respectful erotic scene.
Of course, once you start adding sexual elements, you start reducing your audience. There are people out there who will flip past the sex you put in -- regardless of how "beautiful" you make it -- and there are people out there who will just put the book down and not pick it up again. That is just the reality of the market. It may be somewhat cultural, but unless you are writing for a foreign market, that is the reality.
I can't help but think of the sex scene in the second Matrix movie. Neo and Trinity are a married couple, doing something that is perfectly normal for a married couple. I'm sure the scene is even supposed to have some deeper meaning in the context of the movie, but I personally haven't been able to figure out what it actually is. I aslo have a hard time watching that scene. Not because the context is wrong, but more because here is something that is a private, special, intimate moment and watching it makes me feel like I'm intruding or like a voyeur (except without the thrill).
I can't stand to watch sex on screen. I love to read about it though.
I know why. When it's on screen it's clearly someone else, and I feel like I'm watching something I shouldn't.
A well written sex scene, as part of a larger well written novel, makes me feel a PART of the scene. I'm not watching, I'm participating.
I have a feeling that I will continue to leave sex scenes out of the stories I try to sell. In the end, as much as I like writing, my dream is for respectable publication. (In that I want people to read, enjoy, and respect my stories.) I am not ashamed that i enjoy writing about nor reading about sex, but I recognize that if I add sex to my books then that is all I will be remembered for, when, like in life, it is just a part of the story.
You don't have to agree with me; I just wanted my opposition noted.
Beth, I completely agree with you.
[This message has been edited by Christine (edited May 17, 2005).]
Given some other things that you've said, I think that you have different ideas about "explicit" in a book than most other people here. But that just makes your original question even more puzzling. I have read very few books involving sex that aren't "explicit" by the standard you seem to use.
For the record, I have no problem with "explicit" sex in movies when it's a "we just had sex and now we're lying in bed together talking about us" kinda scene. I also don't have a huge problem with "artistic low-light shots of various body contours set to dramatic music" sex, though I think it's a bit cheesy (okay, it's a lot cheesy).
And I have no problem with the equivalent in books, which is what I think you're talking about.
I guess that you're just really sheltered or something, and I want to find out what books you've been reading.
http://www.mum.org/menarage.htm
http://home.earthlink.net/~hjcombs/ms.htm
I've also got the source in my adolescent psychology textbook but I can't seem to find it. One of these days we really need to unpack our books. I can even picture the page it's on, but I'd like to be able to cite the title and author for credibility. Sigh.
Anyway, these web sites ought to be a place for you to start.
It is true that the average age of puberty in girls (measured by initial menses) has dropped a few years. It is also true that it was typical in many cultures for a girl to be married off well before she went through puberty. Thus there is no contradiction here.
I do not want to see it.
Among other things, I like to be able to imagine myself in the place of the woman which I can't do in a movie. Also, as a woman, I prefer auditory turn-ons as opposed to visual.
I mean, I'm sure I'm weird, but I don't think I'm weird in this case. I do see a great deal of confusion in what constitutes explicit sex. Many people here read this topic and immediately started thinking of the worst porn they ever read. That tells me something, which promted my explanation of what made for a good sex scene.
But yes, you do need some of the body parts in there.
P.S. I don't have a problem in the sense that I have a moral problem with explicit sex in movies. Go, watch it, have fun. I just won't join you.
[This message has been edited by Christine (edited May 17, 2005).]
Christine if you feel strongly that you wish to write erotica then do so. You may be a very gifted in that arena and be able to express sex in a way that is original and interesting. If you have the desire and the skill do so.
But as with everything weigh the costs such an excursion would have on your reputation.
Stephen King survived explicit sex scenes about children without being labeled a pedaphile- while Piers Anthony did not. So the point I am saying is if you do not wish to be labeled a an eroticist or porn writer then weigh the costs carefully.
No, let me explain something. I don't care whether you call it porn or erotica. It's the same thing. Erotica may be a more accurate term, since it concentrates on the specific characteristic of such art. The point is that to the extent that a work is successful in arousing the sexual response of the audience, it will necessarily be less successful in communicating any other response.
Christine may boast that women are different in this respect, but I don't believe the evidence supports this notion. Horney women are just as notoriously stupid as horny men. That blood flow has to come from somewhere, after all
My argument isn't that turning the audience on is wrong (though I do happen to believe that, since I'm against needless stupidification generally), my argument is that eroticism tends to denigrate any other artistic value in the audience's perception. It's an unavoidable fact of human physiology. Humans become far less alert and intelligent when sexually aroused. They don't think well, and their sensitivities become realigned towards more sensual subjects.
Whether or not I approve of the morality of this is not relevant to the discussion. What particular things turn you or your audience on is also immaterial. The point is that turning some things on turns other things off. It's a simple matter of resource allocation and biology.
If the writer is good, you’re hoping not only do these two people get together, but also that they live.
So, when the finally do get together and then constumpate their relationship, they shut the door on you and it’s a bit unfair.
I’m not saying we as the readers need graphic detail, sitting on the edge of the bed with a tub of popcorn cheering them on, but, c’mon, a little something-something is in order.
As far as the morality debate, I don't think the writer's personal view should play into it. Would your character do this? That's the question that would need to be asked.
I’m much more open to reading sex scenes then watching them as with prose it’s easier to put some art around them. No matter how tender or how pertinent to the plot, on film sex scenes will always feel a little sensationalized. I’m not saying that can’t happen in prose either, but it doesn’t immediately seem that way. Regardless of the circumstances surrounding the scene itself, if a film character shows her breasts while making love or otherwise, then an actress (a real living, breathing woman) has shown her breasts.
[This message has been edited by JOHN (edited May 17, 2005).]
It's amazing that this subject has drawn such controversy! Why do so many Hatrackers have a problem with sex in fiction?
Of course our society frowns on sex outside marriage, nearly all societies do. Our society does not approve of shooting people, either, yet when NewsBys asked a gun question nobody said "I am morally opposed to shooting people." When Eruve asked about multiple villains, nobody said "I am morally opposed to evil."
We're talking about fiction for crying out loud!
Fiction has murder, treachery, war, pain, suffering, seduction . . . and sex. And more. Any of these can be gratuitous or essential, tasteful or offensive, and appropriate or inappropriate for children.
So why the hangup about sex?
For those or you too offended by cussing third and fourth-graders to watch (and I can't say I blame you, but I assure you if you can get past it the satire is hilarious in most episodes), let me recap: Basically, American parents get offended at a Canadian TV show with a lot of fart and poddy jokes. So they get the army involved, recruit new troops, and (with many big guns) go to war.
The satire here being the extreme violence is ok, but heaven help us if we cuss, fart, or talk about sex!
Anything that detracts from the story is a problem and for the majority of works out there eliminating the actual display of sex does not eliminate one aspect of the story except the curiosity to watch someone have sex. But including the detailed sex scene turns off a large portion of the audience, and reduces the stories continuity.
I guess for me watching the coarsening of society, that I have begun to really detest public sexuality.
Example here is a conversation in front of my house by three 13 year old girls in front of their families:
"I was like so f--king amazed at him," girl 1 said.
"I know he turned out to be such a g-d d---med d--k- I mean he got what he wanted, " girl 2 said.
Girl 3 responded, "Well that's why I only let him feel my tits- I knew he f--king you both. But God he was so cute!"
Girl 3 later on came to my house and asked my "daughter" to go out with her and wanted to know if she liked to finger herself.
This type of language and behavior is rampant everywhere I have lived in the past five years. From Oregon, West Virgina, Tennessee, and Arkansas. My wife when we started dating six years ago did not know that d--k was a curse word or b---h.
For me I do not want to be part of the coarsening of my culture.
What is happening to class or style in America? Or as one wit said "As Britney Spears has proven it has never been more profitable to be trash."
JB Skaggs
quote:
Anything that detracts from the story is a problem and for the majority of works out there eliminating the actual display of sex does not eliminate one aspect of the story except the curiosity to watch someone have sex.
This is a strong and valid opinion, but I do not share it. (At least, if we've sampled the same selection of books, which we probably haven't. I don't think we like the same things. ) Just because you can take out a sex scene without actually skipping over relevant plot, doesn't mean you should.
As to your daughter and her friends...all I can say to that is that they're probably curious. I remember being that age (it was only a decade or so for me) and I have to tell you, more than anything else I wanted to know what it was all about. No one would tell me because that's not something we talk about in "classy America." If class and style mean we can't talk about real things, then maybe they're overrated. I began to wonder if I was the only person feeling the things that I did.
So I turned to romance novels because at this time, they're the only thing that talks. It was not the right move. For one thing, if you want *real* fantasy...go read a romance novel. They take the cake when it comes to things that couldn't possibly happen. But I didn't know better, so I thought that was the way it was supposed to work.
Because no one would talk about it. Sigh. I'm going to read a book now.
2. If you want to write explicit sex scene, go ahead. Just don't claim you're somehow a better writer, more artistic, more filled with integrity, more enlightened, blah blah blah, than people who choose not to write explicit sex scenes.
3. Yes, sex is part of people's lives. So is urinating and defecating -- in fact, I'm fairly certain the average person urinates and/or defecates more often than he or she has sex. Therefore, you can only use "it's part of life" as an excuse for including sex in a work of fiction if you also include urination and defecation proportionally. If you're not doing that, then "it's part of life" is not your real reason for including the sex.
[This message has been edited by Christine (edited May 17, 2005).]
quote:
We're talking about fiction for crying out loud!Fiction has murder, treachery, war, pain, suffering, seduction . . . and sex. And more. Any of these can be gratuitous or essential, tasteful or offensive, and appropriate or inappropriate for children.
So why the hangup about sex?
Sex is something that happens in real life, just as do all those other things, but it something that is generally kept as a private matter. It is not usually something that is seen out in the open.
Murder, war, and crime are all things we can see just about any day of the week, if not in person, at least on the 6 o'clock news. Profanity...well, go to an elementary school and just see how long you can go without hearing it. The physical act of sex is not something that is often seen in public. Even if the subject comes up for discussion, it isn't acted out.
I agree that attitudes towards sex and things sexual probably needs to change. Unfortunately, it is a topic that seems to be treated in extremes. Either it is a big, sometimes dirty? secret that nobody talks about, or it discussed in a profane, derrogatory manner. IMO, neither is very helpful or healthy.
I agree that sex in literature can be experienced differently than when it is seen in a movie for exactly the reason Christine mentioned. However, not everyone is comfortable envisioning themselves in that sort of situation.
Something else that has been lightly touched on...
Fantasy and sci-fi are imaginative genres and as such, I think there is an idea that exists that imaginative equals childish (not the right word but it'll have to do for now). The idea that fantacising is for the young and that grown-up things are more serious. Because of that stigma, speculative fiction is seen as being "safe" for all ages to read.
I don't think that is the right attitude, but it could be one reason why there is not more x-rated content in the genre -- the idea that spec-fic can deal with adult topics and still be safe for younger readers as long as it doesn't deal with sex.
[This message has been edited by Robyn_Hood (edited May 17, 2005).]
I tried doing it i a story once, and people said that because they weren't expecting it, it really threw off the rhythm of the story.
I also prefer not to live in interesting times -- but I do like to read about them.
However, you did make a good point that the age of marriage has risen quite a bit in the last century.
On a different note, based on your comments on what you are looking for in a sex scene, I'm not certain that Hyperion will be a good one for you. I've not read it since that one time in Jr. High, so I really can't remember if the sex scenes actually belonged in the story or not. I just remember that they were there. I also remember that it was a neat science fiction story, and I've been meaning to re-read it to see if that part was as good as I remember. I just haven't gotten around to it yet.
--Mel
quote:
In other words, no matter how funny your bumper sticker or how exciting/adult/real your graphic sex scene, it is lame to assume that everyone else doesn't mind seeing it or having it pop up in the "sci-fi" novel they're reading.
Why?
Seriously. There are many things I can put in my novel and inevitably someone will take offense to just about everything. If you show a sample of writing to enough people they'll pinpoint a problem with nearly every sentence. Some people don't think beautiful female scientists are believable. Some people don't think depressed characters are sympathetic. Some people don't think that the single ability to predict the future is not enough of a speculative element to classify it as speculative fiction. (Just got that one today, actually.) Some people won't like a character's decision to kill or commit suicide. Some people will not like cussing. Some people will not like the theme, the plot, or the twist at the end. Some people will see it coming, no matter how well done.
Will none of these provoke your wrath at having wasted $7? Is anything that you don't like in a book "lame" of the author to have dared put there? Then why take such offense at one aspect of fiction, one aspect of life, that you'd rather not see? Do you even care if the rest of the book is well done or are you so offended that you don't bother to find out?
[This message has been edited by Christine (edited May 17, 2005).]
[rant] I can understand people who object to all sex scenes based on their moral beliefs. Those aren't the people I'm ranting about. I just can't understand why some people think violence is OK but sex is not.
I cannot for the life of me understand why we, as a society, get so incredibly tense and overwrought over the topic of sex. Moral issues aside, sex is simply a fact of life. It is a bodily function. It is an enjoyable activity. It has a deep impact on our emotions, our social relationships, and our mental well-being.
My objections come with graphic violence. Now, if you want to look at something that has gotten out of control in our society, the amount of gratuitous violence on our TVs, our movies, in our literature. The acceptable notion of murder for titilation, the graphic description of blood spewing, gut-spattering violence makes me want to hurl. I watch very little TV and am pretty selective with my movies for this reason.
I deal with graphic violence in books by "bleeping" over the section that describes it. It doesn't add to the story. In some cases (Terry Goodkind, Robert Jordan), it causes me to lose interest in the author all together.
I get really frustrated when I continually see how deeply violence has been accepted and ingrained into our culture when the topic of sex and the naturally resulting exploration of emotional ties and character development it creates is treated like ebola.
And I get doubly frustrated when I see how out-of-whack the "sexy woman" versus "sexy man" ratio is. The entertainment industry has thought nothing of smothering us with women-as-sexual-objects for decades, in movies and in literature. But portraying a satisfactory "everyone is having a rollicking good time including the woman" sex scene is considered scandalous. It is difficult to observe the "woman as object/victim" standard that is so common today without thinking that the real problem some people have is in seeing women portrayed as equals who are personally powerful and enjoying their bodies.
It's a hypocritical double standard.
There. [/rant]
I like all of these novels. Except The Silk Code, that stinks.
They all contain violence and most contain sex.
The Sea Wolf and To Kill a Mocking Bird keep it at a distance, but sex drives the plots of both of these masterpieces.
Ringworld and Perdido Street Station both have strange sex (old man with young woman and human man with insect woman), but the sex scenes are definitely there.
Night Over Water has a wonderful sex scene where a British aristocrat loses her virginity in her berth aboard the Pan American Clipper.
The Pillars of the Earth, Snow Crash, and The Diamond Age all have rape scenes. I don't enjoy reading rape scenes, but in these stories the rapes are essential to the plots. besides, they are no more shocking than the violent deaths depicted in almost all of these books.
Which leads me to The Silk Code. It's a poorly written "thriller" about Amish terrorists. The action scenes in this dog are so awful I can't get through them. I can't wait for the violence to end, not because it is brutal to the characters but because it is brutal to the reader!
A poorly written sex scene can kill a story. But so can a pooly written violence scene, or any other kind of scene.
Lanius - If I wanted to read children's stories I would purchase them. Which leads me to my own personal double standard:
I'm not squeamish about any topic a writer might choose to explore, but I would hate for the guys I drink beer with to discover that I've read The Golden Compass.
"So why no explicit sex in adult scifi and fantasy novels? Why does the wind have to blow and then it's the next morning? What about sex makes us not want to show it explicitly?"
QUESTION 1
The guesses have been:
1. SF/F is mostly a YA/Teen audience and sex just isn't included (much) in fiction targeted for that group.
2. Lots of people here don't like sex.
3. Some authors don't care to depict it: it's not important to them so why write it?
Mostly marketing answers. But the fact is that there is quite a bit of sex to be found in SF/F if you go to the right places. More on that later.
QUESTION 2
As to why the wind blows and then it's the next morning. Well, I think it has something to do with air pressure and the heating effects of the sun.
QUESTION 3
Why don't we want to? A lot of people here have said:
1. It's silly
2. They don't like it in fiction
3. It's too special to write about
4. It degrades society to depict it
5. It's boring
AN OBSERVATION OR THREE
Christine is a rabble rouser <grin>. But that's a good thing because it makes me think. And I think this quote by Dwight Swain is so perfect for this situation that I must share it.
"The thing Character wants, the danger that threatens fulfillment of this desire, and the decision he makes, determine what specific readers will enjoy the story. One likes sex and violence, another tenderness and love, another the competitive striving for success, another intellecutal stimulation. Relatively few college professors are Tarzan fans--and even fewer sharecroppers succumb to Finnegans Wake. The trick, for the writer, is merely to pinpoint audience taste...then to refrain from attempting to inflict his copy on the wrong people" (Techniques of the Selling Writer p137)
The answer to Christine's question, as so many have pointed out, is that there are plenty of places to find and submit stories with the kind of sex scenes you want. Even in SF/F. The genre is big enough to accomodate all sorts of stories in it.
The issue is that the market IS INDEED younger. So your audience for it exists, but it will be smaller.
Does the general audience want more sex with the science? More tender moanings between wizards? I haven't a clue. I'm sure some do and some don't. I don't. I know that I don't want my daughters reading tons of steamy sex. Not because sex is bad, boring, or silly. It's none of those to me. Well, sometimes silly in the best sense. But because (for numerous reasons) I want them to wait to rev that marvelous engine up.
But that's my opinion, my ethic. Is sex good, is depicting it good, is not depecting it bad? Unless we want to turn this into a debate on the ethics of depicting sex, then the question is simply focused on the author. What do you have in your heart to write (tender sex)? What moves you (tender love focused away from sex)? Then write it, Christine, and the trick is...
Or was this REALLY a pure market question? If so, we've gone about it all wrong.
[This message has been edited by johnbrown (edited May 18, 2005).]
If they are twelve and a little bit naive it may do the former while it derails your effort to hold their interest in the more mundane aspects of a good tale. Otherwise their eyes glaze over and they wonder how anyone could possibly write something so boring.
As an example of what I'm talking about I would recommend any serious (and of legal age) writer take the time to go through Miller's Tropic of Cancer and Nin's Incest with a green pencil. These two books are often touted as being the best sexually explicit early 20th century novels but frankly they are not worth reading unless you want to see how NOT to write. I would have added Jong's Fear of Flying but I've not been able to wade through it though I've been trying for some months.
I glanced through my 30 year old copy of Novak's Textbook of Gynecology while I was writing this reply. Though it is still as dull as dirt it is much better prose than any sexually explicit fiction I've ever read.
[This message has been edited by keldon02 (edited May 18, 2005).]
quote:
...we must account for the double standard in our writing if we want to appeal to an American audience.
All I know is that I AM the American audience, and as a consumer, I'm sick and tired of the rehashed drek they keep shoveling at me. I long desperately for NEW ideas, new approaches, new plots and interesting, complex, authentic characters.
I submit that, as writers, it is our time and our task to set new standards for American audiences - heck, for audiences world-wide.
We'll never set new standards - better standards - unless we follow our professional intuition.
I do not plan to live in fear of what a publisher or an audience might "accept", nor will I write to a lower standard just in case some unidentified Who out there in Whoville might object to some spice in his entertainment pablum.
If I feel a scene is powerful, relevant to the development of the characters, and well-written, I would write it in without batting an eye.
Christine, what you described at the beginning of this thread sounds like a marketing niche to me. Yes, it will limit some of your readers, but your genre and your style will do the the same thing. If you notice a lack of credible and well written sex in the sci-fi market, I say "Go for it!"
Oh... and be sure to save a copy for me to read.
[This message has been edited by Elan (edited May 18, 2005).]
The reason I think that graphic sex scenes don't belong in your average Sci-Fi story, while other potentially offensive stuff stays in, is because sex is different than all those things. MANY people think sex is something special (beyond a mere natural act), and something that requires a certain discipline (e.g. avoiding premarital or extramarital sex). They don't want to be exposed to smuttied-up versions of it (granted Christine had queried about tasteful depictions) or have their children exposed to ideas about sex that are harmful. Most depictions of sex in stories I've come across fail to give full context -- emotional consequences, unexpected procreation, and the fact that people who are so incredibly wanton, sexy, or smooth only exist in movies and books, etc.
I agree with Christine that a disservice is done when sex is treated as something dirty and unspeakable. Healthy, trusting sexual relations with a spouse are good and important. But I don't think the problem Christine brought up is solved by including graphic depictions of it in novels for anyone of any taste to stumble across.
As for violence in Sci-Fi, it generally depicts good defeating evil, which is a good and honorable theme. Now, graphic and ceaseless violence (see the seemingly endless and more-than-frequent fight scenes in RA Salvatore's Dark Elf books), are just about equally as lame -- I think. Sex in literature is usually not about good conquering evil, but about assuaging physical urges.
[This message has been edited by Lanius (edited May 18, 2005).]
quote:
As for violence in Sci-Fi, it generally depicts good defeating evil, which is a good and honorable theme.
Picking an obvious nit, I believe typical sci-fi devotes more words to evil committing violence than good. Usually good only gets to be violent in a few short scenes. Those are usually concentrated near the end of the story, and the acts are usually performed in self-defense.
quote:
So why no explicit sex in adult scifi and fantasy novels? Why does the wind have to blow and then it's the next morning? What about sex makes us not want to show it explicitly?
I think the answer is that there is sex in adult sci-fi. The sex may not qualify as "steamy," and it may be absent from the pulpy Star Wars and Star Trek stories which spew from our bookstores like oil from a derrick, but it is there.
As to sex in adult fantasy I cannot comment. I'm not much of a fantasy reader, but it seems obvious that sex and adult fantasy must be, by definition, inseparable.
[This message has been edited by Doc Brown (edited May 18, 2005).]
This is not so much a moral answer as it is a practical one:
I have done family counseling for years. I have watched the absolute hell uncontrolled sex does to families. Marriages ripped apart, children abandoned, abortion, rape, incest, molestation and on and on. Sex without control is violence ask any rape victim, abandoned spouse, or abused child. The emotional damage caused by someone being used sexually is heart rending- most people do not want to be used sexually and then abandoned. Sexual pleasure is a good thing, but it is something that has to be used with discipline- otherwise you end up with 40 year old men having sex with 13 year olds, and many other perversities.
Complete meaningless sex between people very rarely works in the real world. Hearts get broken, people get stalked, and occasionally people get killed over it. Imagine coming home from work and catching your spouse with your mom. You won't be talking about American's being prudes- your going to be pissed that you were betrayed. imagine your 15 year old daughter having sex with a 24 year meth dealer- again you are not going to be happy.
In fiction the characters come together have sex and then move on everyone is happy. In real life this is not usually the case. But people believe they can do this. They think they screw around without consequence- why becuase our media puts trillions of dollars into saying they can.
back to writing:
Well written sex scenes can be done without out pornographic details and you know exactly what has happened how it happened without being spoon fed every tiny squirt, grunt, thrust, and fart of the act itself.
JB Skaggs
JB Skaggs
Most of the stuff I write has nothing to do with sex. I'm not even tempted to put in a sex scene because that's just not what the story is about. Even in my recent novel, which has a significant romance subplot, it turned out that the sex didn't happen until so far after the climax of the main plot that to put it in would have served no other purpose than to show off my skill (or lack thereof) at writing sex scenes.
I do like the idea of appealing to a wider audience (as wide as you can get if you limit yourself to scifi/fantasy) There are many important things I feel I have to say through my writing, and trying to get Americans to develop a healthy sexual attitutde is really a very very small part of that.
So here's the question. Let's say I want to write a short story or two, or maybe one novel, that has explicit sex in it? In all, this should only account for a small portion of what i write in my lifetime.
Can I sell a few pieces with explicit sex and still have my work marketable to a wider audience or would I be reduced to hiding under a pseudonym?
"In fiction the characters come together have sex and then move on everyone is happy."
I think this summed up your problems, because prior to that all you did was make me feel sorry for you for only ever seeing the worst parts of sex.
There are two extremes when it comes to sex. There are prudes who don't want to talk about it, think about it, and I have to wonder if they really enjoy having it, even in marriage. It saddens me that society has created these people, I think through fear. I think we are so afraid that our children wil have sex badly or wrongly that instead of being open and honest with them we scare them into prudishness as adults (sometimes after a brief rebellion that can end badly).
Then there are the despicable users of sex, the ones who came out of the sexual revolution and took from it the idea that sex didn't have to have meaning anymore. Women's lib is great, now you can have sex with them, even knock them up, and have no responsibility! (OF course, there are women who are just as bad, but that one's easy.) There are those who don't understand the emotional connections that sex creates and hurt their partners, even their married partners, through infidelity.
Child molestors are in a category of their own. I' mnot even sure if that has anything to do with sex. Never having experienced it personally, I'll just say that I'm glad that is the case and leave it there. I certainly don't see how reading about sex in a book will create this problem. If I understand my psychology correctly, this usually happens by abused children who have gronw up to a new generation that may fall into the same trap and create a viscious cycle.
Now that we've gotten through all that....
"In fiction the characters come together have sex and then move on everyone is happy."
This disgusts me when I have the ocassion to read it. It usually happens in the romance genre in which the man (the womn, of course, is pure) has had multiple sex partners in the past (he must be experienced and have a big...well, you know ). I've often seen the man break up with one or more of these mistresses (that's what they call them in the historical novels...I should have coughed before historical, I think) and they'rea always ok with it. He just pays them off. Things like that make me want to hurl the book across the room.
I tried to write a paradoy of a romance novel once that began with such a scene, except this time the woman reacted how she should have reacted, but then I remembered that I suck at writing humor and anyway, I didn't think it was funny.
Did I have a point? Oh yeah....Sex doesn't always mean the dark side of sex. I've read it done beautifully, even in wedlock (although this is more rare), in which the two had a real emotional connection that made them stronger if they stayed together or hurt them if they broke apart.
So what I'm saying is, despise badly written exlicit sex, despise the ones that are false, or out and out lies, despise the ones that are pornographic rather than emotional. Isn't there room to separate out the two types and treat them separately?
In mainstream fiction you would be able to include sex in some storiesw and not in others. No one really cares that some of Stephen King's books have sex scenes while most do not.
A genre writer can live or die by the presence of sex scenes, or lack thereof. If you plan to be a sci-fi writer, you might consider a pseudo for you sexy stories.
Here's an example. I recently read a SF story in which it was really important to the plot that the Heroine felt a deep connection to the Lieutenant while they were having sex. (the mileau had different morals and regarded sex as recreational) In her mind they hadn't simply had sex, they had made love. But the author didn't show us this pivotal scene. I really resented it.
And I'm one of those people who tend to laugh at sex scenes because they seem so absurd. Not sex, mind you, (I'm a healthy adult woman and I enjoy it) but the writing about sex rarely captures the sensations the way leaving up to my imagination would.
Christine, I would actually love to see some good examples of it, if you wouldn't mind posting a list.
Earlier I mentioned Anne Rice's Sleeping Beauty and said that it verged on soft-core porn. What I didn't say was that it was vital to the plot, and that it is also the only example of sex scenes that aroused me in the same way that a really good battle scene will make my heart race, or a death scene will make me weep.
In regards to the new question about marketing. Anne Rice published the stories originally under a pseudonym, and after she became well-established claimed them as her own. I suspect that's the route most agents would advise. And really, by the time you need to worry about it, you'll likely have an agent to advise you.
Absolutely! I believe there is the place for sex in novels.
One of the most beautiful scenes I have ever read was a sex scene. Between an elderly man and an elderly woman who were dating for the first time years after their spouses had died. It was somewhat detailed but elegant. The tender touches and fears of the two were really brought out. And rather than being something that most people would have thought gross or distasteful it was wonderful. It was about living and deciding to overcome the world. Reaching out and mingling two souls- it was not about great orgasms or flashy hollywood sex. It was real. The woman believed she was too old and ugly and the man built her up. The man thought she would think him weak and inferior to her dead husband, but she made him feel like a hero.
I do not remember the title but it was a story written in the last four or five years by Ray Bradbury. yes the master still writes just not very often- and oddly enough not publically.
JB Skaggs
[This message has been edited by JBSkaggs (edited May 18, 2005).]
quote:
Sex doesn't always mean the dark side of sex.
I think this underlines the point I was trying to make earlier. We never get to SEE the beautiful side of sex in the media. Never. We never get to see the power it has to build and cement relationships, the power of monogomy, to explore the invisible bonds that are created.
THIS is what is lacking in entertainment today.... positive role modeling for how sex can enhance our lives rather than tear them apart and destroy them.
I find it ironic that we rarely see healthy sex scenes in movies where both adults are enjoying themselves and creating a deeper bond as a couple, and when we do it's considered too "explicit" - yet scenes where sex is used as a weapon to hurt and manipulate people are considered perfectly acceptable.
As a society we seem to tolerate violence and appear to be frightened of exploring healthy sexual behavior.
It's sort of like the claims that some SF is teenage power fantasy. Suppose it is. Would you want teenagers to have real power, instead? (Thanks to John Barnes for pointing this out.)
Americans buy more pornography (both hardcore and softcore) than any other country in the world. No other country even comes close. America is also the world's largerst producer of pornography, in all its media forms and flavors. No other country even comes close.
And yet, we are also the same country that still takes an almost Puritanical viewpoint about sex. America is considered to be one of the most religious countries (Christianity, anyway).
Does anyone else find these statistics at odds with America's presumed piety? I'm not taking sides, by the way. But it sure says a lot about our country. I leave it to you to decide what that says, though.
We have a long and proud history of fighting our natural impulses in this country. I'm not saying that it's all bad. Certainly, if you feel the impulse to cheat on your partner you should fight that, and maybe try to figure out what's wrong with your relationship that makes you want to stray.
The problem is the people whoa re talking. The only people who are talking are the exremists, it seems.
I love this show that's on late nights on Oxygen: "Talk Sex with Sue." She's Canadian. There's no way you could have a mature, unbiased, non-judgemental, and informative show about real sex issues aired out of the US. I recommend it to any adult, hands down. In fact, I'd let a mature and curious teenager watch it to give them a better source for answers than the X-rated videos and locker room talk that's all they can normally get information from. Watch it with your husband/wife and see if you don't learn a thing or two. It's just a call-in show, you won't actually watch people having sex (although sometimes she gets out her dolls).
After that show on Oxygen they have some rather unsavory American erotica.
Hmmmm....
[This message has been edited by Christine (edited May 18, 2005).]
(Sorry for adding to the tangent, but I really do enjoy Sue )
Do you mean per capita, HSO? If not: I think America buys more of just about everything than any other country on Earth, because our economy is so huge.
There's also the fact that by American standards, European TV has some pretty hot stuff . . . why pay for the Playboy Channel when you can get it on regular TV?
It's possible that the average American really does spend more time perusing porno than the average European. I don't know.
I was amazed the last time I was visiting family in the States. We were watching T.V. and flipped past The Osbournes. I was surprised at all the bleeps. I had only caught part of one episode before that on Canadian T.V. and everything just flowed freely from the Oz. No Bleeps, no blurring the mouth; just a warning after each commercial break that the show contained coarse language and was not suitable for all audiences.
Also, The Sopranos. As far as I know (and I'm probably wrong), in the US it was only available on HBO. In Canada, it aired, uncensored, on network T.V.
As an outsider looking in, it seems there are a few things that have public and private standards that are quite different. But then again, there's alot that I don't get about Americans. No matter how simillar we might be, there are some distinct cultural differences between the US and Canada.
Not sure if that contributes to anything or not.
Food for thought:
http://www.lautens.com/arch122.html
http://cbc.ca/cgi-bin/templates/view.cgi?/news/2001/05/26/tunick010526
Anyone else care to claim the same?
Why, is that important?
I haven't even come close to reading them all.
The weird thing is, they were story relevant. I wouldn't say they should be removed or that they were just there for the sake of sex. It's just that they were only there because they were story relevant and did not go above and beyond the scope of the story to make them truly emotional or impactful.
Did that make any sense at all?
quote:
I'm not a robot, I'm an android!