*Waves* Hi matthew!

At that point there was some discussion as to the appropriateness of having kids on the adult board. Some objected, some were OK with it.

I'll just get it right out in the open and say that I'm NOT OK with it. My reasons are many and varied.

Am I advocating banning them?

No.

However, it might be nice if we helped direct them on those finer points of conduct here at Hatrack that will make their inclusion easier on all of us.

I'll start:

Please, don't use forum slang. There are only a few acronyms that are widely used here (IMO, LOL). Most of us are too old to know what the rest of them mean. Don't use u instead of you. Please do your best to spell correctly, punctuate correctly, use whole words, etc. You're among adults. Out of respect for them, moderate the kidspeak.
 

If you can act responsibly and maturely (and honestly), great... please do. This is not GameFAQs or some other site where immaturity is encouraged.

Thanks.

Frankly, I'd prefer to keep it that way. It's not that I have anything against kids and I'm not too old to understand some of this slang (although our community does not use it, probably because we're writers whatever we're doing), but we have adult topics here and I don't want to have to hold back. I don't even want to try to remember what's ok for a 13-year-old to hear and what's not.

Isn't there another forum around here for the teens?
 

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I thought this board was only for people 189 and older.

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Really? That old? Man, I'm going to have to wait another hundred and seventy or so years before I'm officially old enough to be on this forum.

Anyway, there is another forum for younger writers and I believe most of them do post there. I think the ones that post here don't realize at first that they do have a forum for people their age. I think it helps to tell them about it as I have seen done in the past. They usually seem to leave after that. Whether they do actually post in the young writer's forum or not, I don't know. *shrugs*
 

when I first joined the board I was only fifteen (I joined under a different name, several years ago). I felt I would get more out of the adult boards than the younger ones. I don't know how it is now, but I had to have some correspondence with Kathleen before I joined. I'm personally very thankful that she let me because I have learned a lot from these forums. I never had anybody comment on my age (or at least try to redirect me to the younger forums). I don't know if that is because I didn't tell anybody, I tried not to sound immature, or because I didn't act immature.

That said, my feelings on the issue are:

If a person (regardless of their age) can handle himself/herself and act like a mature adult, then they should be allowed to stay. Accordingly, we should treat them like adults and not discount their opinions merely on the basis of age or perceived inexperience. If, however, they start acting immature or uppity then it's fine to talk to them about it (but I would suggest e-mail, instead of publicly attacking them on the boards) and maybe suggest that they move to the younger boards.

I think that if someone is wrong, they should be told that you think they are wrong and why you think that. They should not be told that someone older and more experienced knows more than them so they should shut up (even if it might be true).

On a simple note: I agree that immature behavior has no place on this board and if you want to engage in it, leave. I'm not okay with kids on the board, I'm okay with adults who happen to be younger than 18.

My two cents.

Jon

[This message has been edited by bladeofwords (edited June 16, 2005).]

[This message has been edited by bladeofwords (edited June 16, 2005).]
 

I hit the dreaded 3-0 this year.

Dakota, you know that whatever you post, I say "ditto." So, there. I said it again.

~LL
 

Do you think young 'uns would come in here if we called this the "Mature Writer's Workshop?"
 

BTW, I _like_ using Internet abbreviations. IMHO, it's easier than saying "by the way" or "in my humble opinion."
 

In droves, I think.

Don't you remember being fifteen? Didn't you, as I, think you were SOOOOO mature (add Valley accent)?

My deepest darkest fear is that this workshop will go the way of the Young Writer's Workshop. Immaturity pervaded over there and the abuses kept the mature ones from being able to participate in ANY meaningful way.

I like the idea of running them all through Kathleen, but I doubt she has the time for that. Even if she did, this workshop depends on the honor system for honesty in reporting your age and other information--as was evidenced by one youngster who recently 'confessed' to only being sixteen and that he had lied about it earlier.

Whoops! There goes your maturity!

I really have no problem with allowing Enders (as I call them) to participate here. But how many of them really are Enders, and how many of them are just kids wanting to strut among the big boys (and girls)?

 

I think we all take turns making ourselves look foolish. I know I did.
 

I agree with you dakota, I just want to give them the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps there is some other way to screen them besides making Kathleen do even more work?

Jon
 

I don't know how to solve the 'screening' problem. Maybe if we let them in for a trial period, then had the existing members vote (in or out)? I suppose we already do that in way by spanking or ignoring those who violate our Hatrack sensibilities.

BUT! Back to topic please.

How can our young friends make themselves at home here without making themselves a nuisance?

Here's a good one for everyone, not just the youngsters, but that the youngsters, just by nature of being young, sometimes overlook:

Hatrack is about gaining by giving. That means that you should make a serious effort to contribute more to the Hatrack community than you take. Which means, make sure you are critiquing and commenting on the work of others AT LEAST as much as you are posting for critique and comment of your own work. To do otherwise is just plain selfish, IMHO, of course.

Susan

 

I do not think we should cut any slack, however. This has been, and should remain, a forum of (mostly) mature individuals. Any kid, or any adult for that matter, who doesn't like being treated like an adult, won't stay. We just have to make sure that we treat everyone like an adult.

I was, in fact, going to start a thread somewhat similar to this one when I'd finished reading all the posts that I haven't seen yet. However, it would have been specifically about using the language properly. Kids aren't the only ones who fail to capitalize, and use sentences like "C U B4 8", though it does seem more common among the younger age group. The point is that this is a writer's workshop. It's even called that. So, let's write it right, ok? This little bit of advice is something that needs to mentioned on here every now and then (and it did even before the Young Writers Workshop folded). Specifically:

* Spell out words, rather than using letters or numbers to represent words or syllables. You're not on the telephone, you've got an entire keyboard. Use it.
* The key next to the 'Z' on the left and the one next to the '?' on the right--that's for making capital letters. Use it at the beginnings of sentences, for proper names, and for the pronoun "I".
* Don't forget your commas.

I could go on, but you get the idea (and if you don't then there's no point going on, is there?) I should say that acronymic phrases, such as LOL, ROFL, IIRC (although it took me months to figure out what that last one meant) seem to be all right. (Also, note the spelling of "all right". "Alright" is not poor usage, it's poor spelling. It's like spelling "through" as "thru". There are plenty of editors who will use the appearance of "alright" on the first page as an excuse to toss your submission back into its SASE. While "alright" is becoming more acceptable, and may be commonly accepted in as little as twenty years, it hasn't happened yet.)

In short, anyone--whether under 18, over 189, or somewhere in between--should try to write like a writer. And anyone who asks for a critique needs to be willing to take what gets dished out to them. And anyone who offers poor advice needs to be willing to learn from the backlash they'll receive. And anyone who just makes immature comments needs to be ready to be ignored.

As far as I'm concerned, if they'll follow those rules (as well as the common rules of courtesy), I don't care how old they are.

[This message has been edited by rickfisher (edited June 16, 2005).]
 

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IIRC (although it took me months to figure out what that last one meant)

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I haven't seen that one before and don't have the foggiest idea what it means. It sorta sounds like the number on the front of a car. Can you use it in context?
 

Cutsie-pie is not cute.

That said, I agree with Jon. A person's age shouldn't matter; their behavior should. I started the whole internet thing when I was 14, and I never told my real age just because I recognized some people felt that way. NO ONE ever guessed I was under age, let alone that much. I was treated with respect, but no one shied away from steering me right when needed, either.

The main problem I've noticed on WRITER'S FORUMS in particular is that often kids don't recognize constructive criticism for what it is. Of course, at that age, just about everything's personal anyway. I'll see someone post for crits, then spend the whole time defending themselves instead of taking it with a grain of salt, learning, growing, and improving. To me, that's abusing the board. When people misuse or misunderstand the purpose, then I feel it's not a good fit, regardless of age, and others should speak up. (As someone said, personal email is often best).

As long as a person is respectful and uses the board as it was intended, I have no problem with them. My first story was published when I was 7. If I'd had a good writer's group ever since then, I'd be a HECK of a lot better than I am now.

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My first story was published when I was 7

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Fantastic! What was it?
 

Too bad my folks lost our copies of the magazine....It was called 'Make the Grade' or 'Making the Grade'. Something similar. I've tried searching online with no luck. Oh well.
 

I'm 35, by the way.
 

franc li, I think putting actions in colons is fine, as long as things are spelled correctly.

My beef is with people who insist on bizarre CaPitaLiZatIon of their names, and then won't use capitals in a sentence. That's just bogus, in my humble opinion.
 

Bottom line here is, there are people here who know how to write, and are a few lucky breaks from making it. There are also newbies who can learn a great deal from keeping their mouths shut if they have nothing to say.

We all could have learned a great deal from a 15-year-old Harlan Ellison, and virtually nothing from some other people much older.

That being said, 15-year-olds of Harlan Ellison's caliber are few in number.

The only way I know somebody's age is if they tell me, but I will certainly make a biased opinion if tHeY wRiTe lIkE tHiS or use shorthand that wouldn't fit in a manuscript.

It basically comes down to this: Some people have something to say, other people have to say something.

[This message has been edited by Spaceman (edited June 17, 2005).]
 

I know that I've said things that were pretty immature, and have wanted to say many other things that were downright juvenile. (However, I AM only 22, so that might explain that...)
 

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Boy, it's a good thing that I have not as of yet released my age on this forum. I may be one of the youngest here.

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If I had taken my writing seriously at your age, how much further along would I be now?
 

I would not want to be inadvertantly talking to a thirteen-year-old on this board about a subject I would hesitate to discuss with my own thirteen-year-old.

If this board is KNOWINGLY including people younger than 18 without telling us about it, but rather letting us believe otherwise, and if admission of these children is predicated upon a subjective analysis of their 'maturity' based on a few passable emails, then I feel mad and foolish about it; like I've been had.

Kathleen, tell me it is not true.

[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited June 17, 2005).]
 

[This message has been edited by Phanto (edited June 17, 2005).]
 

I was one of those kids who could have been an active member of a board like this with very few if any people aware that I was underage. So I do have a soft spot for people who are older than their years. If we treat the kids as adults, and expect them to act like adults, then they will either do so or find somewhere else that is more comfortable. It requires a certain amount of vigilance on the part of the adults, but no more than dealing with the occasional wackos who show up with the intent to disrupt the boards.

At any rate, that is my opinion. I don't really feel that strongly one way or the other. Ultimately, the decision rests with She-Who-Must-Be-Obeyed.

--Mel

Oh, and I'm 24. I have a 30-year-old sister-in-law who thinks of me as an older sister. People consistently guess my age as around 27 or so.

[This message has been edited by MCameron (edited June 17, 2005).]
 

And don't go Phanto. I'm sure your a super guy--or gall :P You've been a member waaay longer than me. You might even be smarter! But shhh, Don't tell anybody, kay.

[This message has been edited by pixydust (edited June 17, 2005).]
 

I only do not care about me being "outed" in such a horrible fashion because of the minor fact that I hardly ever post here anymore.

My few postings here tend to be drive-by editings of postings in the feedback forums. I tend to make comments like "this is not effective," and "too many adjectives."

Careful the kids might hear...

At the risk of getting on my high horse (or staying up here as the case may be); was there a procedure? I can't remember. Maybe under eighteens should get the boot, regardless. There is a young writers forum specifically for them, isn't there?

PS: MEL

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Oh, and I'm 24. I have a 30-year-old sister-in-law who thinks of me as an older sister. People consistently guess my age as around 27 or so.

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Have you ever thought that maybe you just LOOK three years older than you really are.

(Thats the first time I've ever used the "BIG GRIN" emoticon, even if it was a cheap-shot)

[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited June 17, 2005).]
 

for my part i will say that i do not see anything wrong with a lack of capitalization. that shift key is just too far away! i can assure you that i use proper capitalization where it matters: in a manuscript.

irregular capitalization, leet speak, over-use of 'net slang, etc. all that stuff, on the other hand DEFINITELY does not belong.

PS: capitalization of certain words, when on a message board, is used as a way of stressing a certain point. excessive capitalization, like, an entire sentence, is known as yelling, and that is off limits.

PPS: i am 19, if that matters to anyone. and Phanto... i've always thought you were in like your mid-twenties! so you may most definitely stay, you're one of the "Peter's" or uhm, i forgot Ender's sister's name, or "Ender's" or "Bean's" or "Petra's" appearantly

[This message has been edited by dpatridge (edited June 17, 2005).]
 

This bugs me. I still love her, though, despite her obvious flaw in this regard.

In the days of yore, we used to follow the present-day German method of capitalizing all of our nouns (or most of them). Imagine the grief our Shift-key challenged friends would get if English still required that convention. Of course, if we did revert to capitalizing our nouns, then perhaps noun recognition would be a heck of a lot easier for school children. Oh, well. They'll deal.

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And anyone who asks for a critique needs to be willing to take what gets dished out to them.

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rickfisher also said:

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(Also, note the spelling of "all right". "Alright" is not poor usage, it's poor spelling. It's like spelling "through" as "thru". There are plenty of editors who will use the appearance of "alright" on the first page as an excuse to toss your submission back into its SASE. While "alright" is becoming more acceptable, and may be commonly accepted in as little as twenty years, it hasn't happened yet.)

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You might be interested to know this from Random House:

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from:http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19990604 - "The Maven's Word of the Day":
The spelling of all right--or more appropriately the spelling of alright, since the former is never questioned--is one of the Great Usage Debates of recent times.

Forms like all right, in whatever spelling, were around in the Middle English period, and then died out for no obvious reason. They reappeared in the early eighteenth century; it is uncertain whether all right was a re-coinage, or whether we just have no written evidence for four hundred years.

In modern times, the form alright is first found in the 1890s. Presumably, it was created and/or popularized based on analogy with such words as already and altogether. These spellings, though, had been long established by that time, while alright, being newer, could be criticized. And criticized it was, from the early 1900s onwards.

Usage writers and copy editors (and schoolteachers) tend to really, really hate alright. Some of the comments one can collect from them are "horrendous," "ignorant," "illiterate," "over my dead body," "lazy," and the like. This hostility has not changed much in recent years, despite the ever-increasng frequency of the form.

It has always been true that the form alright has been more common in non-formal contexts. But it has also been used for the better part of the century by undoubtedly notable writers. Theodore Dreiser used it through the manuscript for The "Genius", though H.L. Mencken made him change it to all right. Other alright users include James Joyce in Ulysses, Flannery O'Connor, Mordecai Richler, Langston Hughes, and Gertrude Stein.

While in general, alright can be found in all the senses of all right, in practice there can be a real semantic distinction between the two, because the two word form all right can mean 'all correct' or something like that, while alright can only mean 'good; safe; healthy', etc. when used as an adjective. (Similar distinctions are found with already and all ready, though these forms have diverged to the point where they are not interchangable at all.) Thus the sentence "The Kids Aren't All Right" can mean 'not all the kids are right', or 'some of the kids are wrong', while "The Kids Aren't Alright" can only mean 'the kids are not OK'

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[This message has been edited by Meenie (edited June 17, 2005).]

[This message has been edited by Meenie (edited June 17, 2005).]
 

i hardly want to brand myself a non-writer just because of the manner in which i taught myself to type.
 

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My wife refuses to type any capitals unless it is something formal or work-related. She claims, "I don't speak in capitals, therefore I don't type them."

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That's funny, HSO
Does she speak with commas, periods,exclamations,question marks?

I think the use of lower case vs upper case is really more people who know how to type vs people who don't
Meenie
 

I think what he meant by the comment about taking what's dished out is that many immature writers are offended by ANY comment other than, "OOH! That was, like, SOOO cool!"

And an example of just that kind of immaturity can be viewed right now on the F&F boards. And THAT is just as inappropriate here as being disrespectful.
 

But, I do agree that there are exceptions. Enders. Like Phanto. I never would have guessed that Phanto was under 18. Never. Young, yes.

 

As for mature content, I think that if they are able to have a mature discussion they are probably mature enough to handle it. Granted, some parents may not want their children exposed to it regardless. My parents told me all the facts of life <i>long</i> before my friends found out. In fact there are many things that I don't remember <i>not</i> knowing. Some kids are like this. Is it possible that we could have some sort of parental consent for minors who sign up? This could be lied about (just as the under-18 question could be) but at least it would be something. Just a thought.

Jon
 

I will say, when I was younger, I NEVER read YA books. I've been reading adult books since I was 10 and got over Nancy Drew and Babysitter's Club. Age should not automatically mean maturity. I was a huge fan of the Earth's Children series by JM Auel, which frankly discusses sex and even a rape scene. I liked those books, so I read William Sarabande, who had a brother and sister become intimate. I devoured anything by Stephen King, and he's written about nearly every vulgar thing imaginable. --Etc. Etc.-- And I could rationally discuss writers' works with a level of maturity that many older folks could not.

As I said, I think we should base our opinions of others on their behavior and attitudes, not their age. I don't even care how old they are. I do care if they're too immature to behave appropriately with the adults. Otherwise, there are many forums out there for Young Writers. (May 2005 Writer's Digest has the 101 best websites for writers and specifically marks any with a Young Writer forum). If they have come here instead, it must be because they are not getting what they need at those sites.

For the record, I don't give my age. But I'm old enough to have kids, yet young enough to keep having them! That gives a rather wide range, I think. Age is irrelevant, and a lady never tells anyway. Obviously I am young enough to at one point have read the Babysitter's Club, a fact which still haunts me to this very day...

For me, I don't really care how old anyone posting here is (and, as has been pointed out already, KDW has no control over who reads this site). I don't even care how "old" anyone here writes (though I do get a tickle out of those good old usages, yeah...back when being literate meant something).

I do care about punctuation. It's just as bad as spelling things wrong. Sure, a minor lapse now and again is only to be expected, but consistently using poor punctuation. is like--putting barriers, in the way of you're. reader's

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You have at least one person here who has been published in Analog, at least one who has a novel manuscript under consideration for publication, one who had interest from Hollywood on a story outline, and one who place high in Writers of the Future.

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I'm not actually keeping score, but I believe we have a few writers who can claim all of the above distinctions. Not all of them post regularly, though.
 

As for "all right", the excerpt you posted proves my point, which is that

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This hostility has not changed much in recent years, despite the ever-increasng frequency of the form.

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NO one will take exception to the spelling of "all right", whereas loads of people will take exception to "alright". If someone really wants to promote the spelling of "alright", they need to use "all right" until they're famous enough that they can insist on "alright" without having it negatively affect their potential readership. To do otherwise is to act foolishly. (Note, folks, I'm not saying to "be foolish" which would be a personal insult. Everyone occasionally acts in a foolish manner, often for reasons that do not stem from lack of intellect. All it means is that our wise, rational decision-making skills do not always win out over our emotional and contrary natures, and probably just as well, in some cases. But my opinion in this case stands.)

[This message has been edited by rickfisher (edited June 17, 2005).]
 

[This message has been edited by rickfisher (edited June 17, 2005).]
 

[This message has been edited by rickfisher (edited June 17, 2005).]
 

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I'm not actually keeping score, but I believe we have a few writers who can claim all of the above distinctions. Not all of them post regularly, though.

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That underscores my point.
 

[This message has been edited by rickfisher (edited June 18, 2005).]
 

Of course, those are only chronological years. I can tell from your posts that you, like me, are still young at heart. To be honest, I feel like an imposter when someone calls me "a man." Can't people tell I'm still just a kid? (Ignore the expanding bald area.)
 

I do feel a bit uncomfortable now regarding some of the questions I've asked in the recent past. But I can't think of any topic we've discussed that has been immature in nature, and so maybe we've helped the young'uns see things from a more mature perspective. If so, discussing these things like mature adults has probably helped the kids more than we realize.

My age? Almost 29.
 

I extend the favor by refusing to call my college students "kids" (arghhh). They are men and women. And AFAIK nobody but me ever tells them that.
 

As has already been stated, I don't have any control over who reads what is posted here because it is a public forum.

What Jon (bladeofwords) remembers is when he signed up for a group and answered my sign-up question, "Are you age 18 or older?" with "no." I talked to him about what is expected of people in groups and why we don't encourage those under 18 to join Hatrack groups.

Since we're not doing groups that way any more (if you want a group, you are expected to organize it yourself from people you get to know here on the forum), I don't use any sign-up forms, so I don't know who is under 18 and who is 18 and older.

Hoptoad, I want to assure you that we still don't encourage people under 18 to join this forum. In fact, for the record, I want to encourage those under 18 who are interested in writing to go to websites like Alpha:

http://alpha.spellcaster.org/html/links.html

(connected to a workshop for teens that is held every year, but is closed for this year--I apologize, I didn't hear about it until too late).

Also, MTGchamp has a young writers forum that people are welcome to go. Information is at

http://www.hatrack.com/forums/writers/forum/Forum4/HTML/000192.html

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My deepest darkest fear is that this workshop will go the way of the Young Writer's Workshop. Immaturity pervaded over there and the abuses kept the mature ones from being able to participate in ANY meaningful way.

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In regards to that, I hereby give permission to any and every participant on this forum to ignore any other participant who does not behave in an appropriate manner. In other words, "Do not feed the Energy Creature" that may show up from time to time.

(Survivor, much as you might like to think it, I don't consider you an Energy Creature, okay? )

And rest assured that if such people do not amend their behavior, they will find themselves very unwelcome here.

All we ask is that everyone be polite and respectful to each other, and that you all remember what we're here for: to improve our writing and learn from each other.

[This message has been edited by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (edited June 20, 2005).]
 

I've noticed that the kids we get with flip attitudes usually breeze in and out of here in a few weeks. Then we don't hear any more from them. It's sort of annoying to keep them from being too pesky - like swatting at mosquitos. But it does no serious harm. It's just the price we pay for having a public forum, and I think the benefits far outweigh the hazards.

The difficult thing about working with teens is that they are usually lacking in the basics. Their spelling and grammar need work, and those of us who do critiques for them end up spending far more time on their critiques than we might on an adults - simply because there are more technical malfunctions. The other difficulty is that they cannot always offer a full critique because they lack the skills to detect POV problems or similar things.

But I am pleased to help younger writers along. After all, why is this website here? I imagine OSC went out of his way to arrange for us to have a place to meet, share, a moderator to keep us all on track, simply so that we can learn and grow as writers. He didn't HAVE to do this. I'm guessing that it's part of his personal mission, from what I can see, to encourage writers like us.

I've already learned a tremendous amount from participating here. I see my contribution to helping the younger writers on this forum as a way to pay the favor "forward."

Thanks, OSC! I appreciate this forum!
 

I have a few thoughts.

1. There is no way to actually monitor who is what age. I am 28. I am married, expecting my first child in November, I'm 5'6 and I'm a brunette. But I could tell you that I'm 18, blonde, single, looking, and looking like a model for that matter. Heck, how do you even know I'm 28 and pregnant? You just have my word on it. Maybe I've created a vivid online hallucination for myself.

2. Everyone who said that maturity and age are not related is entirely correct. In fact, I do remember my teenage years (at least somewhat) and honestly, I was always older than my age. It doesn't have to do with what books you read (I enjoyed both Baby Sitter's Club and Nancy Drew and am not ashamed of it). The maturity shift between teenager and adult is subtle, hard to isolate, and some people never make it. It has to do, in part, with setting aside teenage fables such as, "Yes, it will happen to others but not to ME. I can drive drunk and it'll be fine." and "Others aren't able to follow their dreams but of course, I will." They also have a false sense of immortality prior to this maturity shift, which can happen at almost any age or not at all. BUT it does tend to happen (on the average) around the legal age of maturity. Now, I have a personal suspicion that the legal age of maturity drives the maturity shift rather than the maturity shift driving the legal age of maturity, but that's just my opinion.

3. I mentioned the legal age of maturity earlier. That means two significant things. First, it is an average time that a maturity shift occursin reality. Second, whether or not the maturity shift has occured, it represents an age at which I can't get in trouble with your parents for what I say to you. Frankly, I wish adults would be more open with teenagers as I think they can handle far more than we give them credit for (whether or not they made that maturity shift) but I'm only going to have my kids to mess up.

To sum up: Age doesn't matter as much as maturity but it is the best guideline we can use, especially as it lines up with a significant change in legal status. But in the end, you can tell me you're 50 as easily as 15 so nobody's going to stop anyone from posting or reading here. Conduct yourself as an adult and I'll never know.
 

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The maturity shift between teenager and adult is subtle, hard to isolate, and some people never make it.

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True. Really, adults are often no more mature than children at times. We've all seen this at work, and we've all had our bad days. I'm not sure I've ever really grown up, but at some point in my life I started taking responsibility for my own actions.

I used to get irate when people called me "kid" when I was a teenager and a young man. I believed then I was more mature than other kids. I wasn't, but I didn't realize that until I was in my late twenties, probably. But I never got along with kids my age, and I always gravitated towards older kids and adults. They, bless their hearts, had far more patience with me than I do now with other kids.
 

Having raised three teenagers (and we all survived--yeah!), I would say that an adult is someone who realizes that you don't have to stay up until 2am in order to have fun.
 

So I have no definition of "adult" aside from the biological definition of the term, an organism that has become capable of reproduction. Which is entirely unconnected with being a rational and sentient being.
 

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/keywords/adult.html

I like the one by Ursula K. LeGuin

[This message has been edited by Void (edited June 21, 2005).]
 

Says the teenager.

 

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To me, being an "adult" means you care more about what others need, then about what you want. Then you act accordingly.

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Cynically, I admit, if this is the defintion of the adult, the world is woefully lacking adults.
 

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"Do not feed the Energy Creature" that may show up from time to time.

(Survivor, much as you might like to think it, I don't consider you an Energy Creature, okay? )

---

That's good, because I feed him pretty often.

Caring about others needs would imply that you know what they want. If you're wrong, they smile politely and then write emails about you to people they trust. So I like bladeofwords' definition better.

I think being an adult means having some space between the impulse to do something and actually doing it, wherein one evaluates whether it is a good idea. For the average person, this doesn't actually happen until they are about 25. Of course, a lot of people can mimic the effect by just putting a lid on their impulses.
 

I'm talking more about specific instances where you place your wants on hold to help someone who needs something. Sometimes those we know (and even strangers) do ask us for help.
In my opinion, a sign of maturity is that when you are confronted with this sort of situation, you take the time to help, even though it may not be the thing you want to do.

Examples:
You see a person who needs to merge on the highway. Even though you are in a hurry, you respect their need and don't crowd them out. (Sadly, you later notice that their car is smoking badly and covers yours with a thin coating of oil.)
Or
As a parent, you put your child's need for a new coat in front of your need for another pair of sneakers. (But those new Nike's are so cool.)
Or
Again, as a parent, you go to a crappy job everyday so you can provide for the needs of your family. (So much for my desire to be a beach bum.)
Or
You spend a weekend helping a friend move across town (and up three flights of stairs, cause the freight elevator is broken) even though you'd rather be fishing, golfing, singing in the barber shop quartet, etc.
Or
You climb out of bed at 5am to take an elderly neighbor to the grocery store before you go to work. (Even though she ends up only buying lotto tickets and beer.)
Or
Instead of going home to watch TV at the end of the day, you volunteer to read to kids at your local library.
Or
You take the time to read someone's story, even though you could just ignore it and only work on your own. (Which seems like a waste because they might be a newbie that later disappears and never returns.)

I admit that this type of behavior does not make a person a complete adult, but it is, in my opinion, a high indicator of maturity, or at least character.

I guess I'm a bit of an optimist, but I think there are plenty of folks here that have been in at least one of these situations, and even though it was a pain, they still helped.

 

If something is a good thing to do, then it doesn't matter whether anyone else wants you to do it. At least, it doesn't matter to me.

I always have a space between the impulse to do something and the act, and I usually use the space to at least consider whether it's a good idea. But there tend to be overriding considerations, so I do a lot of things that I know are bad ideas.
 

[This message has been edited by Meenie (edited June 23, 2005).]
 

Jon
 

Most teens think everything is critical, and the world will end if it doesn't happen as they think it should. They will act on most of their impulses whether it is right or wrong.
 

Also, I know my grammar and spelling were better 25 years ago, when I was a teen. I certainly read books I am not sure I would recommend to a young teen (especially Jean Auel).

I know my brain has been attacked by a variety of illnesses, and I cannot comprehend abbreviations at all. I like coming here. Some of the critiques I have received have been very helpful, others more vague. Sadly, I tend to be a direct person, and when something needs to be critiqued, it helps to give an example of how to correct it. Sometimes, just a notation of which word or sentence is wrong is really helpful as well.

I truly hope I can continue to write and get all my stories written before I go blind, or my brain leaves me completely! Sad to say, for someone who is 32. It doesn't help that when people see me they think I am 16 and healthy. I was healthy at 16, never after.

 

1. You REALLY want to get publsihed and take this entire situation very seriously

or

2. You REALLY enjoy contributing your knowledge to others who are succeptable to reason #1.

So in summary of my most humble and possibly misinformed opinion, age doesn't matter when character and maturity are concerned--don't judge a book by its cover (or its age)
Thank you for reading my rant... haha.
 

If I had to use one word to describe the difference between an adult and non-adult it would be this:

responsibility

Adults understand that they need a job to pay the bills and survive.

Adults understand that they have to live in a society with many other people and that those other people have rights and feelings, too.

Adults know that just because they want something, they are not necessarily going to get it.

The third may not be true at all, depending on your philosophic/religious outlook. I personally believe that we all, inevitably, will eventually get what we truly want. Which is why my own philosophical system stresses examining and controling desires so heavily.
 

I'm not sure when Christine's second definition has not been true. Maybe (if you believe in the Christian creation story) Adam, prior to Eve, but that's kind of limited.

I think Christine's third point is one that's very important as well, and indeed is a recurrent theme in The Accidental Witch. Ultimately, you have to accept that, the way the world is, wanting is not enough. Sometimes you're lucky and get things without working for them, sometimes you're unlucky and fail to get things no matter how hard you work. That's just how life is.

Survivor, your philosophy sounds intriguing. I'm reminded very much of the aphorism "Be careful what you wish for"...
 

And just because not everyone of a mature age do not adhere to my definition of adult, does not mean it isn't sound. I believe we've already established that many people never grow up.

Also, they were just examples. My point was the one word: responsibility.
 

[This message has been edited by Beth (edited July 05, 2005).]
 

I did not find anything offensive about your post, however. Challenging definitions is how we fine tune these things and get to the truth.

Hmmm...it also may be how laws end up being reems of paper long.

[This message has been edited by Christine (edited July 05, 2005).]
 

yikes, now Christine retracted! Just me trying not to get the conversation off track, is all. I'm not offended, didn't think anyone else was; I just kept going off in different directions that are maybe interesting but not really relevant.
 

Once upon a time a writer named Dakota started a thread about young people on Hatrack. She posed the simple idea that members of Hatrack might be served if they offered tips to new young Hatrackians that would help them (and all of us) transition into the Hatrack community with greater ease.

Unfortunately, tangents happened, and only 2.6 pieces of such advice were offered. Therefore, Dakota requests that She-who-must-be-obeyed locks this thread. It's really getting entirely out of hand and no one is learning anything.

Thank you.
 

I missed the good part
 

I just meant that paying the bills and survival aren't necessarily dependent on having a job. You (or at least I) can survive without having any bills to pay, and even if you did need to pay bills, you only need money, not a job. This is truth, whether or not it is something that you can be an "adult" while knowing it.

On a slightly different note, only a slender majority (if a majority at all) of people that have lived on this world have had to live in a society with many other people...and while usually those people did have feelings, they didn't always have rights. Sad but true, that last bit. You can decide whether the first bit is sad or not for yourself.

And the last is just a matter of personal philosophy and belief.

I'm not claiming to be an adult or anything (except in the biological sense, and even that could be questioned...I haven't reached my final form yet, after all). Merely pointing out that some definitions...don't apply universally.

I thought the discussion was edifying and interesting, and am sorry if anyone found it distressing. Really, even more sorry than I am at having missed the good bits