Overheard conversations can be as over-used as flashbacks and dream sequences, yet I find myself irresistably drawn to the device -- especially when palace intrigues or sneaky, cutthroat plans are involved.
Is there a time when eavesdropping should be avoided? Is there a better way to let a protagonist know what the baddies are up to?
Posted by wbriggs (Member # 2267) on :
I don't think I've ever used this. It seems unlikely enough that I wouldn't use it unless this is the premise of the story.
Posted by mikemunsil (Member # 2109) on :
To me it is so much like deus et machina that to legitimately use it you must also have the MC suffer from having overheard it. No gain without pain.
Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :
I didn't know overheard conversations were overused and I don't see an inherent problem with them. Of course, it could be *highly* coincidental that the protagonist was in earshot at just that moment so there had better be a darn good rationale and it had better flow very well with the rest of the story.
I don't know if I've ever used this device.
Posted by Miriel (Member # 2719) on :
Well, if it's palace intrigue and if there's spying involved...I don't see what the problem is. If you're lurking around trying to eaves-drop, of course you're going to hear something, eventually. Or maybe even mis-hear and mis-interpret something...
As several said above, a happy, implausable coincidence for the MC won't make readers happy...but I don't see the problem if someone is either spying, or makes a habit out of eavesdropping.
Posted by EricJamesStone (Member # 1681) on :
> Is there a better way to let a protagonist > know what the baddies are up to?
Yes. The best way to let a protagonist know what the baddies are up to is to let him guess based on misleading information and then do something that makes his situation worse when the baddies' real plan is put into operation.
Posted by Beth (Member # 2192) on :
I think I've only accidentally overheard a conversation that was relevant to me one time in my life, yet it seems to happen with astonishing regularity in fiction. Makes me roll my eyes.
My favorite overheard conversation, though. The people who lived in the apartment next to me were talking on their porch one summer night. I could really only hear the woman's voice. She was going on and ON about their relationship and her feelings and what she wants and needs. You've been in that conversation before, I know you have.
Finally she says "Thank you for listening to me. I'm really committed to making this work, so I want to understand what you need, too." (and on and on.)
There's a pause and I can hear the guy murmuring something.
Then the woman says, "Sure, I can try to keep the cat off the counter."
Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
Oh, Beth, that's great. LOL
Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
Having a MC overhear crucial information is very tricky. Not only can it be a deus ex machina, but it can also commit the sin of writing known as "maid and butler dialog" where two people tell each other things they already know so the reader will know it too.
I remember a perfect example of this in the tv series "V" (remember that?) where Marc Singer (our hero) manages to sneak on board an alien spaceship, climb through the conveniently large enough air ducts to where the alien leaders were, and overhear them through the vent telling each other that they'd come to Earth to eat humans. I could not believe professional writers honestly thought they could get away with having this happen!
Posted by Varishta (Member # 2789) on :
quote:Then the woman says, "Sure, I can try to keep the cat off the counter."
Oh, that almost made me snort my drink through my nose!
Posted by Varishta (Member # 2789) on :
quote:Having a MC overhear crucial information is very tricky. Not only can it be a deus ex machina, but it can also commit the sin of writing known as "maid and butler dialog" where two people tell each other things they already know so the reader will know it too.
This is what I'm worried about. I've tried to not to do that(Well you see, my dear Jeeves, I really do intend to put rat poison in Sir Bromley's Darjeeling..." but that, along with the whole coincidence thing is nattering me to death.
P.S. That rat-eating scene from "V" gave me nightmares for weeks. Maybe that's why this technique is embedded in my subconscious...
[This message has been edited by Varishta (edited August 25, 2005).]
Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :
The manner of the eavesdropping is important. It could be a situation where a character stumbled onto something, retreated hastily without being seen, and happened to hear something accidentally. Or the character could deliberately sneak up with the intent of sneeaking a listen, and strain to hear what's being said. Either way, it could reveal character, or advance the plot.
Just keep in mind the Bag End Rule---if one is eavesdropping, there should be eaves present.
Posted by Miriel (Member # 2719) on :
LOL!
Posted by Varishta (Member # 2789) on :
quote:The manner of the eavesdropping is important
OK, the situation is this: In the storyline, protagonist A is sneaking about in the palace gardens at night (for a very good, plot-advancing reason). He accidentally comes across characters B and C, who are discussing updates on an assassination scheme. Protagonist A doesn't see B and C, only hears their whispered, unrecognisable voices. A short snippet of converation reveals they are planning a high-level assassination. Problem is, Prot A is under house arrest and not supposed to be out in the first place. Furthermore, A is already under suspicion for another, earlier murder.
Sound plausable? Or done-to-death?
[This message has been edited by Varishta (edited August 25, 2005).]
Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :
My gut reaction is that it sounds entirely contrived. Even if A has a good reason to be in the garden, the fact that B and C happen to be there at the exact same moment discussing an assassination where anyone can overhear them ... yeah right is my gut feeling. I can't even think of a good reason for you to manufacture B and C's presence there. People with two brain cells to rub together simply don't talk about assassination plots in an open place like a garden. And if they don't have two brain cells then they're not compelling antagonists.
Posted by EricJamesStone (Member # 1681) on :
Ditto Christine.
Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :
My thoughts on that particular scenario exactly.
If your character A already knew that B and C were up to something, and spied on them in their secret little cubbyhole of plotting by clinging to the stong wall outside their fourth story window or something like that, then that would be a lot more believable and work better dramatically. Because then character A is working for the information.
You have to make your protagonists work to get good things, otherwise they're just getting lucky over and over again. And that makes them less interesting (Kujibiki Unbalance notwithstanding, that's supposed to be a dumb premise).
Posted by EricJamesStone (Member # 1681) on :
Excellent point, Survivor.
Posted by Varishta (Member # 2789) on :
You're right, Survivor and Christine.
The whole scene might have to go, I'm afraid, because the only reason I made character A run into B and C was to make him feel even more miserable in his current situation than before. (He wouldn't be able to stop the aforementioned assassination.)
Thanks for your help,
Varishta
Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :
By the way, "stong" is a typo. I meant "stone" Posted by Varishta (Member # 2789) on :
I thought you meant a wall built by this architectural company: http://www.stong.com/
Posted by dee_boncci (Member # 2733) on :
I tend to agree with Survivor, for your situation and in general. When a character lucks into overhearing something of great value it just doesn't ring true, even though in real life it is perfectly plausible.
Posted by franc li (Member # 3850) on :
I guess you could have a POV character whose especial weakness is eavesdropping, and rather than continually being impelled to action by what they overhear, they are continually going crazy trying not to let on to people how much they know. Like the guy who gets BCCed on all the crap at the office.
Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :
Hah, but that was Christine's point. My point was that getting lucky isn't just implausible, it's uninteresting. Except in Kujibiki Unbalance Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
franc li, that sounds a little like that movie where Mel Gibson was able to read women's minds.
Posted by franc li (Member # 3850) on :
Oh, uh, I didn't see that. But don't you think it could be done better?
[This message has been edited by franc li (edited August 26, 2005).]
Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
I didn't see it either, franc li, so I don't know how close your idea is to the movie. I would think it could be done in any number of other stories, because there are all kinds of possible situations it could be explored in.
Posted by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (Member # 59) on :
In fact, maybe we could make that a story challenge. Anyone who wants to, write a story about someone who overhears things he or she really shouldn't have overheard and has to do something (save the world or stop a crime or bring two star-crossed lovers together or whatever) about what he or she has overheard, without letting anyone else know that he or she has overheard things.
Because the possibilities of what might be overheard are endless along with what the person does about it, there should be a huge number of very different stories as a result.
Posted by Miriel (Member # 2719) on :
I think that if the point is to make the other character feel worse, you could leek the information to him/her another way. If there's a sneaky minor character who's friendly with the MC, they could be sneaking around the garden, find out, and tell the MC. If the "finding out" happens off-stage with a minor character, it's easier to believe. If you're not watching a dramatized scene, but it already "happened," for some reason it's easier to believe. And minor characters having lucky breaks is easier to swallow too, for some reason.
Posted by Varishta (Member # 2789) on :
Miriel -- Interestingly enough, that's what I intended to do at first. But then I thought, "Oh, I don't know if it'd be interesting enough if the info was obtained from a second-hand source" and so the scene changed to MC overhearing things himself -- which was a bit over the top, even for my dramatic style.
I've returned to the idea of a minor character breaking the info, but in a later scene, when that minor character is under extreme duress -- and no one believes her but the MC, who is powerless at this point of the story to help her, himself, or anyone else.
