Help! This is for the opening scene of my TriMo novel (which starts tomorrow!), and I still only have my "fall back" idea to go with; looking for something better.
I have two modern-day, male characters back in ancient greece, and I need to get one of them detained, preferably for breaking a social taboo of some sort (as opposed to doing something my readers will actually think of as "wrong")
Any thoughts?
Some more specifics, if you want: they are in a city that has just been conquered, posing as soldiers/sailors of the conquering army. I need one of them detained by their ship's captain (but seen/caught by someone else). Ideally, he/they will do something that is an embarrassment to their superior officer. And I need the one character detained by the captain, on the ship, so they wind up at sea with him when he casts off. My "fall back" idea right now is to have them helping a woman - possibly by handing her a weapon - and making it a sort of social taboo. I'm wary of the idea, though, because I want to avoid making a big deal of the whole gender-issue, and why "our culture is superior to ancient civilizations." That's just a can of worms I don't want to deal with in this work (and frankly, it's overdone).
Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :
Ummm...are we on earth or have you invented your own 100 B.C. world?
If the former, you'd better start reading some history books. We may be able to find you a taboo, but it won't help the realism of the rest of your story.
If the latter, you'd better start reading some history books. You'll be able to create the world far more realistically and convincingly if you have any idea how ancient civilizations worked.
Posted by Gwalchmai (Member # 1807) on :
I never really looked too deeply into ancient Greek culture, but here are a couple of things I've managed to drag from my memory that may help. Firstly, how far back are you going here? 1100BC would pretty much have your story set in the Trojan War era, whereas most of what people think of as Ancient Greek life went on after around 500BC. There was always something happening in ancient Greece with regards wars etc. so with a little bit of research you should be able to find something in the right time period to suit your story if you haven't already done so. Different parts of Greece had different cultures and taboos back then too.
For example the Boeotians were seen as a particularly uncivilised, boorish race by most of the rest of Greece, so a case of mistakenly naming your ship's captain a Boeotian might be enough to do it if your invaders were Greek, especially if we are talking early to mid-fifth century and your captain is actually Athenian. The Athenians saw themselves as being quite cultured and at this point were creating what became known as the Athenian Empire, actually being at war with the Boeotians for a period.
Another way in which your MCs could upset their captain could be in giving him a false lineage. Maybe they are trying to bluff somebody into believing they are on his side and can only half-remember the captain's name. They might call him Alcibiades, son of Xanthias, say, not knowing that Xanthias is actually a common slave's name, and thus maybe cause offence. Or this could tie in with the Boeotian thing and they could give him a Boeotian ancestry by mistake.
That's about all I can think of off the top of my head that could cause unintended offence. Ancestry to high-born and/or famous Greeks was always important, so that might not be too bad a route to go down if you don't want to use the male/female thing. However, it could be said that this has been used a fair bit too.
Posted by TheoPhileo (Member # 1914) on :
Christine - Yes, I'm on earth. Or rather, these guys will be.
What's the red flag you're seeing? And does it have anything to do with the fact you wrote 100 bc and I wrote 1100?
(and for what it's worth, this is more of a fantasy novel than hard sf... though I still want to get the culture close to accurate)
Gwalchmai - I chose 1100 specifically to fall at the end of the Mycenaean age and the beginning of the dark ages. So basically, yes, I'm in Troy, shortly after its fall.
[This message has been edited by TheoPhileo (edited August 31, 2005).]
Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :
100 was a typo...I saw you wrote 1100.
The red flag for me was this: When doing something that takes place in a real history, I expect a lot from an author. I don't often get it. Seriously, though...the details of culture, laws, and how people lived are part of a cultural feel that cannot be ascertained by asking a few questions. Plenty of people ask for help with research around here and I'm happy to help, but in this case I have this sense that there is a feel to how things were that requires something deeper than an answer to one simple question. I could be way off, but the fact that you asked about what kinds of things would get you in trouble that wouldn't be considered bad today made me think there's a lot more than just that question that you may want to answer for a truly authentic feel.
Maybe I'm just bitter because I've seen and read so much that steretypes history.
Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :
I'm with Christine on this issue. If you need help figuring this out, you really aren't ready to quickly write a novel set in that era.
What you want...simplest solution is best. A guy claims to serving under a given captain, anyone else from that group would know he was an imposter immediately. If he was disarmed and seemed cooperative, then he'd be taken as a slave. Otherwise, he'd be killed. And that's that.
Posted by TheoPhileo (Member # 1914) on :
I hate admitting it, but you guys are right. I was going to write it off because my heroes get sucked right away into greek mythology - something which I do know about and have researched - but I realize now that being with characters from the real-world history will also involve the culture and value system of the times, something which still needs some thought.
...Now to decide whether to do the research now, or to pick another story for TriMo.
Heh, I've always worked better under pressure.("If you wait until the last minute to do it, it only takes a minute to do.")
[This message has been edited by TheoPhileo (edited August 31, 2005).]
Posted by Varishta (Member # 2789) on :
Have you ever read anything by Mary Renault?
If not, get a copy of The King Must Die, which centers around the tale of Theseus. It's a good read, and a very instructive study of how an author can weave history and myth together.
[This message has been edited by Varishta (edited August 31, 2005).]
Posted by maria102182 (Member # 2829) on :
As a woman, I think the idea of handing a woman a wepon is a good one, but I was thinking, that classes were pretty strict in that day and age, so maybe having them do some forbidden activity with a member of the lower classes, like share a meal with a peasent or something like that. Associating with the lower classes is definatly taboo in that kind of culture, where today it's just like who gives a crap, I don't want to know what he's been, I want to know what he is now!!!!!! ;-)
Posted by Miriel (Member # 2719) on :
Besides, even if they're in Greek myth...won't you want that story to be true to the historical Greek? I don't know much about Ancient Greece...but I know I would burn any story set in Norse Mythology in which Thor's helmets had horns (Vikings did not put horn on their helmets). I think the same sort of thing goes for Ancient Greece.
Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :
I love wikipedia...always a great place to get started.
Posted by yanos (Member # 1831) on :
The fact he can't speak the lingo would be a major drawback. Even if he could his accent would be less than perfect.
Posted by TheoPhileo (Member # 1914) on :
quote:The fact he can't speak the lingo would be a major drawback. Even if he could his accent would be less than perfect.
Universal Translator. Handy for me the first step towards that kind of software was invented last month. (In fact, a major part of my first chapter involves the translators not working; still extrapolating the language)
[This message has been edited by TheoPhileo (edited September 02, 2005).]
Posted by Elan (Member # 2442) on :
My first writing attempt was a historical fiction novel. I had never attempted anything of this scope before and had no clue what I was getting into. I was hampered by the fact that I couldn't hardly write more than one or two sentences without running into a brick wall. It's critical to know what the food is, the culture, the taboos, the clothing, etc. If you don't have historically accurate detail in your story, then what's the point of setting it in a historical setting? If it sounds like it's set in the modern world, then it is... even if you CALL it Troy.
The upside of historical fiction is that the research is fun, provided you pick a time period that engages you. You end up becoming a collector of obscure facts and work hard to find a way to weave those little treasures into your text.
Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :
Actually, if you're setting something in Greece c.1100 BC, getting details "right" isn't the main thing. Nobody really knows much about the specifics of what things were like back then.
The problem is more profound than that. You use terms like "arrested" and "detained", talk about a "city" being conquered and "posing" as members of the invading force, have them get in trouble with a "superior officer" and so on.
All of those concepts are founded on a fundamental misapprehension about just how "civilized" the Greeks would have been during that period of time. It isn't a matter of getting the details right, you need to deal with basics here.
Posted by Gwalchmai (Member # 1807) on :
Like Survivor says, nobody really knew what went on in that period of Greece, which is why my proposals were centred in the Classical era. Just about all we do know of this time comes from the Iliad and the Odyssey, so reading them would be a good place to start any research, but the problem with both works is that they are believed to have been written much later and thus quite possibly reflect Greek life in the seventh/eight centuries BC instead. There are snippets of information in other Greek writers such as Herodotus, and a few insights to be gained from archaeology, but nothing too major that helps give a clear picture of the culture of that time.
I don't see too much of a problem in using those in relation to that time period though. Certainly there were cities around back then, and a number of them were conquered or destroyed by invading forces. Admittedly there wouldn't have been superior officers as such and the jobs would have been done by the local kings and aristocracy, but seen from the POV of a modern day character, this shouldn't pose too many problems. Arrested and detained may cause problems, but there is no real reason to suppose members of the aristocracy wouldn't hunt down and take into a form of custody (as seen through the eyes of the MCs) somebody of the lower classes who had caused them offence in some way. However, that said, there is no real reason to suppose that they would either.
I do think you would be better off placing the story six or seven hundred years later though, in a period when the Greek states were more fully developed. There is much more information available on the aspects of everyday life which would make your story feel more real.
Seriously, though...the details of culture, laws, and how people lived are part of a cultural feel that cannot be ascertained by asking a few questions. Plenty of people ask for help with research around here and I'm happy to help, but in this case I have this sense that there is a feel to how things were that requires something deeper than an answer to one simple question. I could be way off, but the fact that you asked about what kinds of things would get you in trouble that wouldn't be considered bad today made me think there's a lot more than just that question that you may want to answer for a truly authentic feel.