Hatrack River Writers Workshop: Using ... (dot dot dot)

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Posted by acadia5 (Member # 3181) on :

Does anyone know the acceptable use of using ... (dot dot dot)? In my writing I tend to use it if I want the reader to pause longer than a comma but less than a period and the start of a new sentance. Here's an example:
"Lemar hoped to be absent for a good... long... time. Next sentance and so forth."

Here's another example:
"For the first time Alex heard sounds other than the hum of vent fans. He heard... birds?"

Any guidance on this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Posted by Swimming Bird (Member # 2760) on :

Three dots is called an ellipsis.

It usually denotes an unfinished thought or action.

It wouldn't work for your first example, but works well in your second example.

Posted by Zero (Member # 3619) on :

I had the same questions and we talked about this in great detail, look for a thread called "using junk to indicate a pause," maybe something there will help.

Posted by Mitch (Member # 3681) on :

You can use it in dialogue between characters. Characters pause when they're talking. A narrator writing down a story shouldn't show their pause on paper, IMO.

Posted by pantros (Member # 3237) on :

No, Mitch is wrong, completely.

Write the pause, don't indicate it with ellipses. Ellipses as a pause is cyberchat standard. Would your characters in your story rofl?

Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :

Actually, I would say that it is ocassionally acceptable to use elipses for pauses, but not everytime a character speaks. It would get annoying then. But, on the other hand, sometimes like this would be annoying too:

"I went down to the," she paused, "the kitchen where, "she paused, "where I found," she paused, "I found," she paused, "I saw the blood and then," she paused, "he was dead!"

Much better to show the stammering, flustered character speaking with elipses in a case like this:

"I went down to the...the kitchen where...where I found...I found..I saw the blood and then...he was dead!"

It would be very, very easy to overuse this, though. I think MOST pauses should be spelled out. It's a pause, so it's okay to pause the dialogue.

Posted by pantros (Member # 3237) on :

I'm saying that ellipses as pauses is bad and should never be used.

However, I am always keeping in mind that, like all "rules" in writing, there is a time and place that it can be broken.

But, to break a rule in writing, you do have to be fully cogniscient of what you are doing and why it would be wrong and what makes it right in that particular case.

Posted by pooka (Member # 1738) on :

In my book, they go with exclamation points and ALL CAPS as things I would hardly ever use.

Posted by Dead_Poet (Member # 3542) on :

but why... never mind

Posted by Verdant (Member # 3498) on :

There are multiple ways to write pauses and an ellipsis is one of them; the most common, however, is a comma. The difference is that a comma indicates a pause while an ellipis indicates a longer passage of time.

"Well, I, um, sort of had to just say ..." he hung his head, "no."

Posted by tchernabyelo (Member # 2651) on :

I have to disagree with Pantros on this. It's my belief that the use of ellipses to indicate a pause in dialogue has nothing to do with internet chat, and long predates it, but as I noted in the other thread, it is possible that it's a Britishism that is less common in the US.

I can't find any reference to it in Strunk and White, and a number of other sources only reference its use for omissions in quotations, but this seems to indicate that it is acceptable in dialogue.

Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elipses

I know Wikipedia isn't necessarily the best resource, but I'm having trouble finding others. Can anyone who is suggesting that ... is not to be used as a pause have any resources or references to support your assertions?

Also, I can't imagine why you would deny any tool in the writer's toolbox. Come on, never use exclamation points? That's nuts! Like anything else, they can be overused and I think this particular tool has more power if it is very infrequently used, but it's there and I intend to use it!

ALL CAPS is not grammatically correct, though. IMHO, that's a tool used by people who overuse exclamation points to mark something that really needs emphasis. I use it on-line only because it's easier than stopping and using boldface or italics for emphasis. I hate it when people type entirely in all caps in message forums and I refuse to read posts by someone who does that.

Posted by Robert Nowall (Member # 2764) on :

I see ellipses as acceptable...I was using them long before I started chatting online...I'm using them now, aren't I?

Posted by acadia5 (Member # 3181) on :

I just want to say "thanks" to everyone who provided me with input/expirence/opinions/etc on this question. It will go toward helping me become a better writer. I'm currently chiping away at completing my first ever short story, and at 32 years old, it's about time! As I enter the revision and editing stage I'm probably going to have more questions like this one and the feedback I've received here so far has been very encouraging.

As for my examples, which were both in the voice of the narrator, the first, I've decided to change the text from "good ... long ... time." to " a very long time."

The other example I'm keeping as is (except that I've learned from the Guide to Grammar website that there should be a space between the ... and the two words surrounding it. He heard … birds?)

In another place I'm taking Christine's advice and using "he paused" instead of "..." . It more clearly explains what is happening.

On the other hand, in another place I am keeping the "..." where it is creating the effect I want. "What in the … " he exclaimed.

When I finish the draft (about 10-12K words) I'll be looking here for some readers/critiques. Thanks again for all your help!

Posted by DeepDreamer (Member # 5337) on :

The only thing I've really ever heard abou the use of ellipses is that when submitting, to keep the submission in proper psuedo-typewritten format, there should be spaced between each ellipsis mark like so:

"Blah blah blah . . . "

Has anyone else ever heard of this?

Posted by Aust Alien (Member # 3493) on :

No, but I hate the way MS Word auto-corrects it. (I know, I could turn that off if I wasn't lazy).

Posted by Mitch (Member # 3681) on :

quote:
No, Mitch is wrong, completely.
Write the pause, don't indicate it with ellipses. Ellipses as a pause is cyberchat standard. Would your characters in your story rofl?

No, pantros is wrong, completely. Several people in this thread have elaborated on legitimate ways for dialogue to have an ellipsis included. The main point of my original post, however was that the narration shouldn't include them. pantros, you're yet to explain to me why it's okay for a narrator to use them, so why do you say I'm "completely" wrong?

Posted by rickfisher (Member # 1214) on :

The ellipsis should definitely have spaces between the dots. However, I recommend using non-breaking spaces for the internal spaces (set up a macro or use auto-correct to do this automatically), or the ellipsis will sometimes get split over a line break, which looks pretty lousy.

An ellipsis at the end of the sentence should also have an additional dot, for the period. I see this ignored an awful lot, though.

I don't think using an ellipsis for a pause is generally a good idea. For one thing, lots of dots all over the page is annoying to read and looks amateurish. (And is amateurish. ) On the other hand, many of the "intended to be longer" pauses actually omit words. Many of the examples above fall into this category, and so are completely correct. The most recent is (let me look):

quote:
"What in the . . . " he exclaimed.

Another place this can happen is when a character starts to say something, then changes his/her mind about what to say or how to say it: "What I'm trying to say is . . . oh, why do I even bother?" Or: "I wonder why that guy is . . . it looks like he's petting his car." A comma there would be incorrect.

About the only time I feel it would be proper to use an ellipsis for a simple pause is if words are initially omitted, due to the character not having the right words ready, but after a moment's thought the character picks up where he left off. Thus, the omitted words are eventually supplied, and in retrospect, one might say that an ellipsis wasn't necessary. But it seems like it might be okay with me, as long as it isn't done too often. However, every case I'm able to think of would be better handled without any dots, or with a "he paused", or with a first attempt followed by a rephrasing. So I'm saying, maybe it could be done without bothering me, but in almost (at least) all cases it could be done better one of the other ways.

[This message has been edited by rickfisher (edited August 19, 2006).]

Posted by Sunshine (Member # 3701) on :

Hi. I seem to remember one of my high school teachers telling me that dashes and ellipses are often mistakenly interchanged. I checked a couple of grammar books and found in "Eats, Shoots & Leaves" the author makes the same comment.

"Newspapers sometimes use the ellipsis interchangeably with the dash...which can be quite irritating...as its proper uses are quite specific, and very few: 1. To indicate words missing...from a quoted passage 2. To trail of in an intriguing manner..." (165-66 Truss)

According to Patricia T. O'Connor's "Woe is I":
"A Dash is "A punctuation mark that interrupts a sentence to insert another thought. One can act like a colon: It was every mother's nightmare--ringworm. Or a pair of dashes can be used like parentheses: The remedy was easy enough--a simple oral medication--but what would she tell the neighbors?" (208)

She writes on page 144 that dashes tend to be overused and try to compensate for weak writing.

By the way...is it just me...or does it bug anyone else...when people talk....like this...on the internet...

Posted by Elan (Member # 2442) on :

When using an ellipsis, you can eliminate the problem with it breaking into two parts at the end of a line by using the single ASCI character instead of a series of three periods. The ASCI character for an ellipsis can be accessed by using your numeric keypad and typing ALT+0133. Hold the ALT key down while typing in the numbers. This is a PC command, for fonts like Times Roman or Courier. I don't know how to access the equivelent of ASCI characters on a Mac.

[This message has been edited by Elan (edited August 22, 2006).]

Posted by rickfisher (Member # 1214) on :

But the ASCI character looks terrible (especially in Courier), and isn't desirable in proper manuscript format. I would never use it for anything, though it certainly won't get broken over a line.

I also wouldn't use an em-dash in manuscript format. Always "--".

Posted by MollieBryn (Member # 3728) on :

Why wouldn't one use an en dash in a manuscript document? Does it just look less professional, or do editors get annoyed by them? Along that same vein, are the "--" changed to an en dash when the manuscript is published?

Posted by pantros (Member # 3237) on :

No, they are just presented differently in the print font.

Posted by rickfisher (Member # 1214) on :

Since Courier is a monospaced font, all characters are the same width: a period and a capital "M" take up just as much space. Therefore, an em-dash is the same size as an en-dash is the same size as an "i-dash", if there were such a thing. As a result, the em-dash is practically indistinguishable from a hyphen. Don't use it. Obviously, this means that the ASCI three dots character is only as wide as the space character, also. Don't use it, either.

When published, yes, they will turn "--" into an em-dash, just as they will turn all your underlines to italics.

Posted by Aust Alien (Member # 3493) on :

Mmmm ... "When published" ... loving the sound -- albiet silent -- of that.

Posted by MollieBryn (Member # 3728) on :

SO then what would be an acceptable substitution for (...) if we were actually using it? I think I've used it three or four times in my stories and it just doesn't seem right to say "pause" instead. I wracked my brain but I couldn't think of something acceptable.

Example: "If we don't inject you with the antivenin in time..." he trailed off and let the horror of it speak for itself.

"You mean-"

"That's right. You'll turn into a giant pastry."

What would be the correct way to write that sort of conversation if dashes and ellipses are frowned upon?

Posted by pantros (Member # 3237) on :

Mollie, your first line in your example demonstrates the proper use of elipses.

The second line should also end in ...

Improper Use of ellipses would be:

That's right. You'll turn into...a giant pastry.

Posted by Wayne (Member # 3675) on :

My word, what a commotion three little dots make. I have always thought they were strictly for unfinished sentences. It's been a couple of years since college though, and my memory isn't what...

Posted by rickfisher (Member # 1214) on :

Mollie's first line is definitely correct as is. That's exactly what ellipses are for.

But I think the second line is also correct (except that it needs two hyphens: -- instead of - ). The ellipsis is for omitted words, and words were certainly omitted in: "You mean--". But they weren't omitted voluntarily; the weren't left out. The speaker was interrupted. An em-dash (or two hyphens) is ideal in that situation.