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This forum is for writers 18 years of age and older.
I believe in 2005 the regulars, including Kathleen, decided this was going to be judged on behavior rather than ID. Starting a thread on Yugo cards makes it pretty clear we have children on the forum, or at least people who are children mentally. They go, or I do. I doubt Scott wants the forum driving away his former bootcampers.
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First, please be aware that our concern for author's rights means that this workshop is not for stories about someone else's characters or settings;
A proponant of wholesale theft? A thread that says it's okay to steal whole chapters, but stealing entire works would be okay if ony it weren't redundant? This is an assinine statement that has no business here. I guarantee, if you steal my work, I'll sue you (or more likely your mommy and daddy).
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In Open Discussions on Writing, you can discuss all kinds of questions on writing. Feel free to join in any current discussion, to resurrect any old discussion, or to start a new discussion on writing.
There's a placer for non-writing discussion. It's not far. Take your blather here:
http://www.hatrack.com/forums/index.shtml
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And all through the discussion, you must be polite.
Not even attempted recently.
I also think that this place loses interest for people who don't want to have an adult discussion about writing and writing-related topics. That is what we're here to discuss, after all, and the core group of hatrackers consistently does.
And I really do try to close inappropriate topics as soon as I know about them.
Cheers!
I think Kathleen has hit it on this one, though -- some topics aren't worth responding to. Best to let them die.
Until now almost all threads have been right on topic of writing related, and polite, insightful... basically they've all been mature with very little juevenille behavior. Until recently, anyway. As usual, I'm not sure if I've said anything more than backing up a pre-existing opinion on a forum, but I just felt the need to add my input on this issue, as I'd hate to begin to lose interest in this forum due to an emergence of immaturity and irrelevent topics.
As usual I'm not sure I've said anything
I am getting better. Don't give up on us, the BS will pass. Be patient.
Sadly, the people I COULD be learning from are the more experienced Hatrackers, who rarely participate in this forum any longer.
I try to do my part and pass on some of what I've learned to others, but I fear it didn't take long to begin feeling like a broken record. (Note: RECORD... ancient artifact made out of pressed plastic, set with grooves, that produces musical tones when played on a device known as a "record player.") I have noticed these spates of irrelevant postings tend to come in waves. The good thing is it shows new blood on the forum. The bad thing is the conversation is still irrelevant, and virtually useless to me.
I suppose the next step available to me would be to pony up some money and take a professional workshop from published authors. Too bad that, due to finances, that prosepect doesn't look good anytime soon.
My beef was that I'd pop into a thread that looked interesting but turned out to be a waste of time.
That said, Survivor is right, Hatrack is not useless. These guys are simply annoying. I did get some discussion going, which was the real intent. We needed to get back on track.
Matt
Certainly, I've found very little useful information in recent threads.
On the othe hand, there are still a lot of experienced writers here, and a great deal of knowledge. In general, it's likely that the serious ones WILL stay around and at least keep an eye on the place, while those who don't seem to be able to take the site seriously, or understand what it's actually about, are likely to get bored and move elsewhere. Especially if everyone else ignores them.
I'll keep an eye on the place, and contribute as and when I think I have something to say.
When I come back and post, it is mostly nostalgia. I have a soft spot for this place. But this is a site that is mostly designed for beginners and there comes a point when it just can't help you anymore.
Besides, a casual reply on another thread a couple of minutes ago gave me something about my writing career to meditate on for awhile. So Hatrack is still useful to me.
What keeps me from participating at Hatrack more frequently?
1. A plethora of emotionally immature writers (much inflated since the Young Writer's Forum dissolved) who post for accolades rather than serious interest in improving their craft. They don't want to actually do their homework. They want us to do it for them.
2. A plethora of emotionally immature writers who have driven a steep decline in etiquette. Regulars, not just those annoying burrs.
3. Almost NO stories that I have any interest in critiquing. Too many 13 lines posted from stories that have about 13 lines completed. Too many "Help me with my novel!" No one can help you with your novel, honey, if you haven't learned the craft of writing first--and that is done through writing short stories.
4. FAR too few writers who I can rely on to give me a thorough, carefully read, intelligent critique.
5. This overwhelming fixation on the first 13 lines. It has ONE purpose only, folks. That is to get me to read the next 300 lines.
6. A loss of focus on improving the craft of writing through the medium of short stories. Survivor and others have harped on this point over and over, but few listen. Hatrack serves writers best through the medium of the short story. Not novels, not 13 line fragments. Completed short stories. There is NO better way to study the craft.
Solutions?
Spaceman may have hit on it. Maybe us old fogies should step up and put the naughty little children in their place. When someone posts the twelfth version of the first thirteen lines of a story that is, so far, thirteen lines long, we ought to step up and say he's wasting everyone's time. Maybe we should stop being quite so polite. Except for certain unmentioned trolls, we want to educate these kids, not turn them away.
*Bluntly point out overwhelming flaws and strongly recommend books on the craft.
*Politely tell them that submitting novels to F&F is highly unpopular and futile. Maybe even a Feedback forum specifically for novels? That should cut down the F&F traffic considerably!
*Nicely discourage the practice of posting lone fragments UNLESS the writer needs very specific help/advice on a specific fragment. Tell them you'd like to see them demonstrate that they are capable of writing a whole story.
*STOP critiquing the first thirteen lines as if they matter beyond their sole purpose. If they don't grab you, say so, and explain why. If they do grab you, say so, and offer to read the rest--assuming of course that there IS more than just 13 lines. Don't correct grammar and spelling unless that is the reason the opening fails. Don't rewrite the fragment for them. Just tell them why it does/doesn't work for you.
[This message has been edited by djvdakota (edited January 23, 2007).]
Secondly, you guys with the experience should aim to inspire or at least help prop a nervous new writer up. I have felt welcome here, at least I think so and a new writer reading these will feel overwhelmed.
1) You are a reader, but the opinions that really matter are those of the readers.
2) There will be fewer mistakes. That forces you to look deeper into the story. You can find at least a nit in most first 13. Absolutely the most useless critique is "Wow, I wish I could have written that." Sometimes, that's all you can say, but at least say why you liked it. What was done well. then, think, how could I do the same thing.
Understand that OSC's bootcamp consists largely of critique, and that's because you actually learn a lot about writing by dissecting other peoples' work. Eventually, you'll find yourself doing it subconsciously when you read for pleasure, and you'll start seeing things you don't like even in the writings of your favorite author.
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Sadly, the people I COULD be learning from are the more experienced Hatrackers, who rarely participate in this forum any longer.
So once you reach osmotic stasis you take off? Or do you yourself adopt the role of an experienced Hatracker?
I offer my services critiquing, partly because I like it. I admit, though, these days I rarely go past the first 13, because the first 13 have severe enough problems I don't want to go further.
I haven't posted a story here in a while because I haven't written any -- busy with other projects.
"Guarantee void in Tennesee"
I think there is a generation gap happening right now, but I think it will normalize soon.
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Politely tell them that submitting novels to F&F is highly unpopular and futile. Maybe even a Feedback forum specifically for novels? That should cut down the F&F traffic considerably!
Not that I actually know what's in a novel query. I believe it's a fewish chapters and a synopsis. Anyway, the existence of NaNoWriMo has guaranteed that there are a lot more quasi-complete novels floating around out there.
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Not that I actually know what's in a novel query.
Wear your kevlar.
Or for anyone who's played CS, I'd wear the kevlar AND the helmet.
Thanks for the suggestion. I'll set it up in the next day or so.
[This message has been edited by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (edited January 25, 2007).]
Hatrack is a collage of writers and a few twits (very few), but mostly writers with serious intent. However, the members are scattered all across the learning curve. What I have learned here has been invaluable to me along with outright humiliating. But, I needed to know from people like you that I have a long way to go. I probably have made some of the mistakes that annoy some of the advanced writers here. Regardless, THANK YOU for paying attention to me anyway.
I don’t know, maybe there could be an, ‘advanced writers’ forum here but I wouldn’t like it. I wouldn’t qualify and it would put me out of contact with the only people who could really help me until the penny actually drops. There are several locked forums here that are for boot camp alumni; maybe the better writers could congregate there. But then who decides who qualifies?
Personally I like it the way OSC and KDW have it set up now. This is a genuine pay it forward gift from these two. No offence, but if they were doing it out of some LDS mindset compulsion it wouldn’t have lasted six months. You just can’t get people to do something like this if they don’t want to. No, this is pure generosity, well above and beyond the call of duty and I think we all do appreciate the time you give to us Kathleen.
Text can be a very abrupt way of communication. It is mostly devoid of the emotion and facial expression that wish we could see as we read. In the absence of actually sitting with them at Denny’s, I have to trust that people mean things in a constructive and positive way. I don’t assume rudeness unless they go out of their way to actually type rudeness. Having said that I should say, I try to. Sometimes I’ve caught myself. Maybe you have too. I guess we just have to laugh at ourselves sometimes, right!
Personally I have been going through a hard time emotionally lately and perhaps that has come through in my comments. I don’t mean offence or to be condescending. My son just turned 18 and within two weeks he was gone. Moved out, not dead, but I wish he had stayed with us, he’s not ready. He’s done nothing wrong but it left me sad and angry at all the dangers out there. I question all I did as a parent that he wanted to leave but in my heart I know that’s just the way it goes. We are still good friends and I judge him on nothing so it stays that way. Just a little insight on some of the things I may have said. It’s always different when you understand what drives people.
Again, THANK YOU for all your comments and THANK YOU Kathleen for your personal sacrifice of time. Also thank you OSC, I highly doubt this site runs in the black, it is appreciated.
BTW members, if I am out of line, don’t hesitate to say something. I take chastisement well, I promise.
Tracy
As for an "advanced" forum, there are other places to congregate. Most of the people who have been to bootcamp or make pro sales move onto other venues, but many still stop by here and participate from time to time.
Thank you.