If an upcoming writer publishes a few short stories they are unable to submit to WoTF. However, at least they would have some stuff in print.
Does it make sense to focus on writing a novelette just to get in WoTF before publishing anything else?
Or, should a new writer just try to get as much stuff published no matter what?
The salient rule is:
quote:
The Contest is open only to those who have not had professionally published a novel or short novel, or more than one novelette, or more than three short stories, in any medium. Professional publication is deemed to be payment, and at least 5,000 copies, or 5,000 hits.
My understanding is that they use the SFWA list of both novel and short story publication. If you can qualify for that list, you probably don't need the WotF credit.
An author should explore all avenues on the road to getting their careers going. That includes WOTF, the pro and semipro markets, and novels. It is possible to become successful writing just novels, for example. There are many successful authors that started that way without even getting a single short story published, but an author should never fail to explore all possibilities.
That said, no other single publication means as much, or has as much impact with editors and agents, as winning WOTF. That's the main advantage, not to mention that if you win, you would be rewarded far more in terms of money and opportunity than any other kind of publication, perhaps even more than that gained from a first novel. OSC seems to think so, and has said as much.
It has been pointed out on this forum that the short story market has been losing some of its importance over the last few years. A lot of readers don't like to read them anymore, and prefer to read novels. Because of that, I can see how some authors prefer to follow the path of novels only, but WOTF is worth the time if you can write decent shorts. Even if you submitted to no other short story markets, entering this one is worth it.
Regardless of the path you choose, the thing is to write, finish, and submit everything, no matter how many rejections you get, and once rejected, don't give up and continue to send out your work to other markets. The key in this business is persistence. The same goes for WOTF.
)
It's essentially what Robert J. Sawyer says:
[Perhaps a more appropriate wording would have been, "Don't tinker endlessly with your story." You can spend forever modifying, revising, and polishing. There's an old saying that stories are never finished, only abandoned — learn to abandon yours.
If you find your current revisions amount to restoring the work to the way it was at an earlier stage, then it's time to push the baby out of the nest.]
See:
http://www.sfwriter.com/ow05.htm
[This message has been edited by ChrisOwens (edited November 26, 2007).]
It is a prestigeous award, and one fantastic writing credit to have.
(*rolls eyes* I put religious in quotes regarding scientology and no doubt will offend someone. How about if I apologize in advance, but I refuse to change it. Sorry.)
To each their own.
But Hubbard, back in his pre-Scientology-and-Dianetics day, and not in his Dekalogy period, was a terrific writer, with books like "Fear" and "Ole Doc Methuselah" and "Final Blackout" well worth reading. I was always happy to pick up a copy of the new editions of these when his organization put them out.
quote:
(I said I'd stop if I ever started getting Scientology junk mail---I did, and I did.)
Pat
I do not believe that entries are added to any scientology database. Doing this would be a death knell for the contest's credibilty and they are extremely protective of it.
[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited November 26, 2007).]
WOTF is not Scientology--just as Battlefield Earth is not a Scientology movie(nor a good one, but that's beside the point). None of the judges are known to be of the affiliation--nor the writers who teach the workshop. Hubbard's views on writing is what's stressed, but not his views of religion.
There are many many blogs full of notes from the winners of what went on at the workshop. One could go to these reports and research. If you find anything untoward, why not write your concerns here? Doing so, of course, without preconception or paranoia.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to give this unmarked van the slip...
[This message has been edited by ChrisOwens (edited November 26, 2007).]
Yes, you get added to a mailing list from the publisher of the WOTF anthologies, though to be honest, my entry in the previous quarter did not generate as much junk mail as this more recent round, I'm sure because of the publication date of the anthology. All messages include the following footer, standard for any opt-in/opt-out mass mailing these days:
"If you have received this mailing in error, or if you no longer wish to receive e-mail from Galaxy Press, please send an e-mail with "unsubscribe" in the subject line to info@galaxypress.com. You will automatically be excluded from any future mailings."
I don't see any reason NOT to enter. Other than to leave more room for the rest of us to win.
Oh, I suppose if you don't write in the sci-fi/fantasy genre you might not be interested. This isn't a contest for literary short fiction - there are others that focus on that.
Pat
Edited to add: Here's a piece on the relationship between LRH, WOTF and Scientology. It seems there is a relationship, though whether it's strong enough to care about is a matter of personal opinion.
http://www.frankwu.com/illo.html
[This message has been edited by TaleSpinner (edited November 27, 2007).]
I thought a mailing list was being compiled in this case by the weird practice of having one's name-and-address-and-title-page on Page One and the story begin on Page Two. I know it was said that it was this way so the submissions were judged as anonymous and nameless, but then what happened to this Page One when they were done?
I've seen the website before.
Look at Joni Labaqui's response, "You were actually wrong in that Scientology pays for the writers and illustrators awards. The Hubbard estate (which is not the church) makes so much money on royalties from his hundreds of published fiction".
There is a defined seperation between WOTF and CoS. The proceeds from the anthology do not go to CoS. Nor do the proceeds from CoS go to fund WOTF. WOTF is not CoS and CoS is not WOTF, just as IGMS is not LDS and LDS is not IGMS. They are seperate entities.
The separation of WotF and CoS seems clearer and cleaner. The judges are not CoS. The winners are not CoS. The money doesn't come from or go the CoS as far as I can tell. Now it is possible that some money from the Hubbard estate goes to CoS through donations, but that is a rather difficult money trail to follow.
[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited November 27, 2007).]
quote:
but you also have to remember that he was a SF writer long before his name had "religious" associations.
Ohhh I can tell. Ever tried reading about their "beliefs," hell of a story. The guy should have worked for Marvel Comics.
IF I decide to submit to it again--I'm still teetering on the edge of eligibility--I'll force myself to write about a male MC and throw in some religious theme.
Edit: I don't mean to imply that is the only reason my short story didn't even place. I'm the first to admit my short stories need work. But I do think it definitely makes a difference that certain judges have a prejudice against strong women and a preference for religious stuff. It's the kind of thing one will intelligently take into consideration.
[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited November 27, 2007).]
Even if that were a concern, it's impossible to control where ALL my funds ultimatly end up. For instance, I more begrudge part of my salary going toward building weapons rather than helping the poor, but it would be immoral and dangerous to cheat on taxes. Or, I might tip a waiter and he might go get drunk on it. Yet, it would be wrong not to give 15%.
As far as gender bias in WOTF, I've tallied the winners in the last 3 quarters. Half are women. 5 of the 8 finalist for this quarter are women. That doesn't bode well for my chances this year at all. Maybe they are anti-men this year?
He and the other judges only know by the content whether the contestant is male of female since they are judged without names attached. But the chances of his liking a story with an independent and strong woman MC, especially one with a military bent, are somewhere around nil. (unless she had hysterics mid-battle and had to be rescued by the males--sound familiar to a Card plot?)
It has nothing to do with putting "money in his pocket." He is a judge. He doesn't make money from WotF (Edit: as far as I know. But maybe the judges are paid. If they are, I have no objection to that either)
From my point of view it is entirely a matter of whether it is a good venue for me to submit what I write to. I know that IGMS isn't. He doesn't publish that kind of story. I have doubts that WotF is either unless I change the type of story I write to submit to it.
You are perfectly free to disagree with me, but please don't say that I said something that I didn't.
[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited November 27, 2007).]
[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited November 27, 2007).]
First of all, Kathy Wentworth is the first reader and reads every story every quarter. From all entries, only eight go on as Finalists to other judges. If you don't make finalist, then no other judges even see your stories.
From there, there are four other judges each quarter that read only the eight Finalist stories out of a pool of about a dozen total judges (some male, some female), and they rotate in and out. Sometimes Card will be a judge, but more often than not, he won't be. On top of that, even if he were to rate a story poorly, the votes from the other judges could well override him, and allow it to place, so one judge alone can influence a quarter, but not control its outcome.
I just wanted to relay how it works in the hopes that it removes some of your fear of entering. I think as authors trying to break in, we should all do as much for our future careers as possible, and I think entering WOTF is one of them.
I do respect your point on the market possibly not being a good market for your work though. Like I said before, it is just another market, though a very influential one.
[This message has been edited by luapc (edited November 27, 2007).]
The biggest "bias" that I have actually noticed (if you want to call it that) is in favor of stories with a religious theme. The other from knowing his opinions is just one that concerned me. I don't think (and certainly didn't mean to imply) that he was doing something wrong with bringing his own beliefs to his judging. It's something any judge would be likely to do. His opinions show strongly in his own publication which is to be expected.
I entered last in the previous quarter. I may or may not enter again. I've never made any secret that short stories aren't my strong point.
You're right that it is a highly prestigeous market and one that everyone who is eligible would do well to consider. I was not trying to talk anyone else out of entering, just mentioning my own thoughts in regard to it.
I can't speak for Card, but I'm not sure if I care for strong and independent men or women, rather than meek and interdependent folks of either gender. Of course, that's real life. And what's good for real life, makes for boring fiction.
Who knows? He might be the same. I seem to remember reading Wyrms--that had a female protag. And then Peggy in the Alvin-the-Maker series is a protag and she is hardly weak or subservient. So, he just might enjoy reading a story of that nature and judge accordingly.
I've read the last two WOTF anthologies all the way through and have seen quite a few female protags. For instance, "The Frozen Sky" comes to mind as to having a female protag with a military bent--maybe not so much as military as a scientist fighting for her life Alien style.
BTW, in real life, I'm a guy, but I'd probably go into hysterics long before mid-battle and have to be rescued by men or women or whoever... 8)
) I know at least one woman who objected even more to the whole "frilly purple room" thing, at least I think it was purple. He isn't famous for being open-minded about women.You and I may well have a difference of opinion about what a "strong female protag" is, as well. I have no intention of reading his writing to find out.
But honestly, I was just making the point that I do not consider the connection to CoS to be an issue. LOL
Edit: Well, from a "is it a good venue for my writing" point of view the another question is does fantasy really have a good chance to win with the judges being heavily tilted toward SF? Fantasy does sometimes win but I would say if you write SF, it seems to me you have a substantially better chance.
But either way, it's worth giving serious consideration and I never really worried much about the whole Hubbard connection.
[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited November 27, 2007).]
[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited November 27, 2007).]
Its unfortunate that you gave Bean and the rest of OSC's characters a miss after reading about a 5 year old who got the jitters before a battle in a culture that deified war (battle school). That means that you got to Chapter 4 or 5 of Ender's Shadow, and I assume that you had met Poke and Sister Carlotta. Both of these seem like strong female characters to me, but then I'm male, so I might be coming from a much different perspective.
Interstingly enough, I find that many of OSC's female characters are quite strong. Some mentioned Peggy of the Alvin Maker series. I am also thinking Shedemei of the Homecoming series. (Although don't get me started on my assumptions about Card's take of homosexuality). The female character that most comes to mind for me when seraching for a strong OSC female character is Petra, who is an excellent mix of strengths and weaknesses, regardless of her gender.
Just my 2 cents.
Thane
Of course, in an old interview, Dave Wolverton(first reader before Kathy Wentworth) said something to the effect that any common themes during a given year are not deliberately selected, but it just happens that the majority of quality stories happen to trend that way. Then again, that might not relate to Fantasy vs SF.
[This message has been edited by ChrisOwens (edited November 27, 2007).]
And she didn't have the just have the jitters. She (I have read) spent the rest of her life feeling guilty because her weakness almost got them killed.
Every statement I have read that he has made about his attitude toward women (he has made some, you know) has reinforced that.
There are plenty of writers around who bring respect to their writing about women. I don't find it necessary to subject myself to that.
Edit: But that has to do with my OWN assessment of my chances in WotF. It doesn't have anything to do with whether someone else should enter it.
Further Edit: I just think having all(is it all or only almost all?) of the judges SF writers makes an imbalance a given. How can you expect someone to judge fairly between a genre they like and one they don't particularly like? I am sure it's not a matter of saying, hey, I'll never have a fantasy. But aren't you more likely to prefer something in your own genre?
You know this is Mr. Card's website. I generally avoid going much into the fact that I dislike his novels. I think I've indicated it in the past, but I'd prefer to not go into it further. This just doesn't seem to me to be the place for it.
[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited November 27, 2007).]
[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited November 27, 2007).]
quote:
The anti-woman bias (and Card has discussed this at length so I am NOT putting words in his mouth) has made it plain that he does not think women should be strong or independent. Women are supposed to "stay in their place."
Okay, did anyone else enjoy the irony of this? She's NOT putting words in his mouth, but directly afterward falsely quotes him.
Dude.
By the way, I very much enjoyed Shadow of the Giant, which I considered Petra's book despite the marketing of it as Bean's. Petra was wonderfully driven, strong and complex as any great woman. I have never gotten the impression that Card is anti-woman. And if the inference is supposed to be that his religion is anti-woman, well that's just silly.
...from this strong woman.
--Amiya
Edit: I'll quote Card from one of his columns which attacks "modern wimmin:" And you'll note that when I quote someone I do it in a proper quote.
quote:
Only a generation of spoiled and ignorant babies would ridicule the tools that brought leisure time to every social class in our modern world.
A very respectful reference to women. I choose not to read his work. *shrug* Do what you please and have the opinion you please for yourself.
We are now getting into the area of personal attacks. I said my opinion on WotF which is quite positive whether it's a good venue for me or not. I have nothing else to say on the subject.
[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited November 27, 2007).]
quote:
Further Edit: I just think having all(is it all or only almost all?) of the judges SF writers makes an imbalance a given. How can you expect someone to judge fairly between a genre they like and one they don't particularly like? I am sure it's not a matter of saying, hey, I'll never have a fantasy. But aren't you more likely to prefer something in your own genre?
They are not all Sci-Fi writers.
Kevin J. Anderson
Brian Herbert
OSC
Anne McCaffrey
Dave Wolverton
and K. D. Wentworth are all fantasy writers. Not all of them are High Fantasy writers, but they all write fantasy. To paraphrase OSC: Just because the story's milieu is on a different planet, doesn't make it sci-fi.
Our own KDW is a fantasy author. She has won the WOTF. (Just setting the record straight, not attacking anyone.)
I don't quite understand how the judges' religions--or L. Ron Hubbard's for that matter--are supposed to have an affect on the outcome of the contest. And who cares what the proceeds for the anthology go to? I don't know or care what Tom Doherty spends his money on, but I like a lot of authors that are published by TOR. WOTF pays the contributers well, they are one of the best writing credits out there, and they have a successful workshop exclusive to the winners.
To me (also with only one previous entry) all of the reasons to slight the contest only amount to fear that you (addressed to no one in specific) will be judged closely and found wanting. It's a tough win, that's what makes it so prestigious. As a winner of over 100 awards, I can tell you this: the ones where I wasn't sure if I was going to win are the ones I treasure most, and display a little more prominently.
Side note: Kevin J. Anderson tried to win the WOTF and failed. It was the trying that he accredits with honing his skills. Incidentally:
quote:
Anderson has coauthored eight prequels and sequels to Frank Herbert's classic Dune, with Herbert's son Brian. The initial deal with Bantam Books was the largest single science fiction contract in publishing history.
[This message has been edited by InarticulateBabbler (edited November 27, 2007).]
My reason for unease over the Scientology / WotF connection is a deep-down gut feeling that it is being used to promote the religion of Scientology.
*****
On Card's work---early on, I didn't like the original short version of "Ender's Game" when I read in in Analog---but I enjoyed and was influenced by a lot of Card's other short fiction that appeared here and there in the same era. At one point, I actually dug through my old magazines and reread everything of Card's I could find. Long time passes...then I started hanging out here...then I read the "Alvin Maker" series, and liked it very much, regretting I'd passed it up 'cause it seemed something right up my alley. (I had read a part here and a part there in Asimov's, I think.) But I haven't plunged headlong into any of his other work, or even reconsidered "Ender's Game," short or long version.
(And I can't recall any "anti-women" bias in what I have read, certainly not in "Alvin Maker," which is freshest in my mind...)
quote:
Our own KDW is a fantasy author. She has won the WOTF.
Actually, I didn't win. My fantasy story, "Cinders of the Great War," was a finalist story that was chosen to fill out the 1993 anthology.
In that Card is LDS, you could say one does run his enterprises, and he just might employ others of his faith as well--I don't know. There does seem to be a vast network of LDS authors, from Card to Wolverton to Sanderson, ect, ect--where they promote each others works. However, a business entity or network composed by individuals of a faith is not the same entity as the faith itself.
Other than the individuals that make up the administrative mechanism, the vast majority associated with the WOTF contest (the hundreds of writers who have won and the pro name authors who judge and instruct) are not CoS. If the pros involved, who would know better than we, got the hint that WOTF was not an independent contest, but rather part of a religion, they'd walk lest they lose legitimacy.
Renowned author Algis Budrys was instrumental to WOTF in it's early years, and would know better than any of us. See: http://www.ansible.co.uk/misc/ct-budrys.html
What I get from this article is that WOTF is "a distinct entity", "a clearcut entity", which was made so "on the instructions of L. Ron Hubbard to the WOTF administration when he set up the Contest". Toward the end of the article he says that the publishing company overseeing WOTF is "a commercial enterprise -- and therefore strictly separated from the Church".
http://www.jerrypournelle.com/pictures/wotf.html
In the above link, Jerry Pournelle says, "I also don't have to have an opinion about the Church of Scientology, because it doesn't operate the Writers of the Future, and has no influence over who wins it. That much I can guarantee. The contest isn't rigged. Algis Budrys wouldn't have anything to do with it if there were the slightest chance of that. Nor would I."
The problem with gut feelings is that they are often not quite the best guide. What is needed is a body of evidence that WOTF is somehow being used to promote CoS--I'll settle for reasonable conjecture. How is it being used? How effective do you think it is? How many writers or readers have they persuaded through WOTF? Many or few? If few, then it must not be effective, and if it is not effective, why go through all that effort?
Or can we take Algis Budrys and Jerry Pournelle at thier word? If so, then WOTF is what it is, a SF&F writing contest through and through.
[This message has been edited by ChrisOwens (edited November 27, 2007).]
*Please note that this is out of genuine curiosity. Of Card's works, words, pretty much everything, I have only read Ender's Game, so I am not familiar with the essay you are quoting.
I work for the publisher of the WotF anthology and I wanted to give some more information about it to give further insight into why L. Ron Hubbard created it.
Back in the day when Mr. Hubbard was writing fiction stories for the pulp magazines, he often had correspondence with new and upcoming writers to help them out with whatever questions and problems they had.
In 1940 he was on an expedition in Alaska, sailing under the Explorer's Club flag, and he spent time in Ketchikan. During this period he hosted a radio program on KGBU radio and he offered advice for beginning writers but he went one step further and initiated the "Golden Pen Award" contest to encourage listeners of the program to write fiction. He awarded prizes for the best stories submitted.
This was before he wrote and published any non-fiction works, in fact about 10 years prior to the publication of Dianetics.
Another question came up as to whether we give the Writers of the Future mailing list to the Church of Scientology. That we definitely don't do and we also don't peddle our mailing list to any other commercial or non-commercial organization, so if anybody ended up on a Church mailing list it certainly wasn't because he submitted to Writers of the Future.
As to Orson Scott Card, I do want to say that I love his novels and have read quite a few of them.
Thanks for having me here.
It didn't have to do with his religion. He might feel that way because of religion, or it might be for other reasons. I certainly don't know. While a lot of LDS members might agree with him, I don't assume that. I try not to judge people by their religion just as I hope others won't judge me by mine.
As someone who has entered the WotF contest, I have never received ANY mail from the CoS. I HAVE received excessive and rather heavy handed advertising for the anthology from the WotF mailing list, however.
Edit: I have asked about Mr. Card's attitude toward women in his workshop to someone who attended one. He felt that Mr. Card was as responsive and fair to the women and their writing as to the men. Now I do sometimes feel that men don't notice if women are slighted in this kind of situation, but I feel sure if he had noticed anything like that he would have been honest about it. I wanted to mention this balancing view. It may be that Mr. Card doesn't carry what seems to me to be a prejudiced attitude into judging writing.
Anne McCaffrey and Mr. Card are considered to be Science Fiction authors, not fantasy. And the winning stories have been rather tilted in the direction of Science Fiction.
Further edit: And IB I did not slight the contest. I consider it highly prestigous, and it seems to be well run. Saying that the judges bring certain pre-conceptions to their judging isn't slighting it. That is true in any contest of this sort whether it's writing or the visual arts. Judges are human beings who have certain preferences. K.D. Wentworth has said in the past, for instance, that there is some preference for stories with a moral or religious theme. More science fiction than fantasy wins. High fantasy seems to have very little chance of winning.
Robert, I can understand you going with your gut which is something one has to do. I have a gut feeling about certain things we have discussed here as well. And there are plenty of other places other than the WotF for anyone who isn't comfortable with it.
For myself, since the kind of writing I do, both high fantasy and sword and sorcery, has little if any chance of winning, I don't see much point in wasting my time entering and tying up a story for months when could be submitted somewhere that it might actually have a chance, totally aside from my concerns about the other attitudes of one or more of the judges. I don't send my stories to Strange Horizons either. It's a matter of educating yourself about what does well in different publications and submitting where there is a preference for what you do.
I felt I should answer a couple of questions and respond to some comments, but I think my opinons are too controversial on this subject and too likely to set off tempers so I won't comment further.
[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited December 02, 2007).]
[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited December 02, 2007).]
[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited December 02, 2007).]
Welcome and many thanks for providing further clarification. Any and all insights to allay such unfounded paranoia is much appreciated.
I'll also reiterate that I remain impressed with Hubbard as a writer, as mentioned above.
I do not think it is appropriate to classify questions about the connections, if any, between WOTF and Scientolgy as "unfounded paranoia."
The bio of L Ron Hubbard on the WOTF website makes no mention of Dianetics or Scientology, despite pointing out that in addition to being a writer that "He was also an explorer and ethnologist, mariner, pilot, filmmaker, photographer, educator, composer and musician."
Isn't being the founder of a Church also a noteworthy achievement outside SF? Since the bio is incomplete, one naturally wonders what else may have been omitted from the WOTF website. That's not being paranoid, that's thinking critically.
The Wikipedia piece on Hubbard is less than flattering.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L._Ron_Hubbard
And the piece on the Fair Game policy is quite alarming.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Game_%28Scientology%29
I think that questions about the relationship between WOTF and Scientology are perfectly reasonable.
The answers I have heard here include that judges are not influenced by CoS, money earned from the books does not go to CoS, and the publishing company is operated by Scientologists. Galaxy's website does not disclose who its owners are, so it's hard to see where the money from the WOTF anthologies goes, if it matters.
I have observed that when the question is raised Scientology gets publicity, much of it painting Scientologists as "nicer than you might expect." I would hazard a guess that this is one reason Hubbard's estate continues to bankroll it.
Thanks everyone for answering the questions but please don't classify them as unfounded or paranoid.
Pat
[This message has been edited by TaleSpinner (edited December 02, 2007).]
[This message has been edited by TaleSpinner (edited December 02, 2007).]
However, such questions should not be decided on pure emotion. If one starts looking over their shoulder because they entered WOTF, believing that some shadowy organization is collating a file on them(as if people didn't have anything better to do), or the like, it could qualify as paranoia. Decisions like this lead to situations like the Salem Witch Trail, seeing witches where there are none. In the words of Lost, "The Others are coming! The Others are coming!"
It is no suprise that the WOTF site does not mention CoS. It's a SF&F fiction writing contest, not a religious one. Every bio is incomplete. Many writers do not mention their religion or every detail of their life, even major ones, especially if it has no bearing on the topic at hand. Often, there is a distinction between the 'sacred' and the 'secular'. Similarly, the lack of mention helps delineate Hubbard the Writer, from Hubbard the Scientologist.
The experiences of the writers who've won as well as professional authors, whose reputation is on the line, should help dispel speculating on what things might lurk in the shadows.
Again: are Algis Budrys and Jerry Pournelle liars? Or Dave Wolverton? Or many of the writers who've won? Or can we take them at their word?
The mentioned links are about Hubbard and CoS, not about WOTF. One could equally think of the Crusades or the Inquistion or 9/11 as examples of religion getting out of hand. Or all the money given to televangelists, making them millionaires, while living seedy lives. I don't expect like behavior from every member of the religions that had a hand in such atrocities.
The problem with the publicity hypothesis is that it's not a well-controled process. And the question is raised by us, those outside CoS. There are better and more direct means. Those who are "painting Scientologists" (that is individuals who are in the administrative component) as nice people are from the memoirs of non-CoS writers, who attended the workshop, and would know better than us. And how do you know these individuals aren't, in fact, nice people? Is every member of CoS evil? Or could there be, like one can find in many religions, a mix of good people and bad?
Often, in news articles about another faith(not Cos) that I'm intimately familar with, as well as individuals of that faith, I find gross distortions, half-truths, and misrepresentations. The press, even when well-intentioned, sometimes even gets the small facts wrong. So much for "Check the facts", more often sensationalism sells. Thus when I read links such as those above, although alarming, I keep that in mind.
But that veers off-course: the overwhelming weight of the evidence shows that WOTF is not religious in nature, nor an arm of CoS. It is a writing contest that produces a fine anthology every year, and trains writers in writing, not in religious philosophy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Writers_of_the_Future
As the link says, "entering or winning the contest does not require or imply endorsement or membership in the Church of Scientology, and the contest itself has been endorsed by a wide range of well-known speculative fiction writers (see Judges and Winners above) who have no relationship to Scientology whatsoever. None of the judges are Scientologists, and none of the winners so far are known to be Scientologists."
And: "The Hubbard estate is separate from the Church of Scientology".
[This message has been edited by ChrisOwens (edited December 02, 2007).]
...and some people got upset about women and churches? Does that about cover this topic. Can we move on now?
Eragon.
Harry Potter.
That should kill this topic.
quote:
Further edit: And IB I did not slight the contest. I consider it highly prestigous, and it seems to be well run. Saying that the judges bring certain pre-conceptions to their judging isn't slighting it. That is true in any contest of this sort whether it's writing or the visual arts.
I clearly stated that my comment was an attempt to "set the record straight" not attack anyone.
quote:
...there is some preference for stories with a moral or religious theme.
Morals aren't religion. I think they were refering to you "character's religion"--as in the development. I could have misunderstood this, but it wouldn't make much sense to want to see your religion; it would be a sign of an authors world-building skills to show their character's religion.
quote:
SO...from skimming through the posts here, it seems WOTF is a good thing to put on your resume.
...and some people got upset about women and churches? Does that about cover this topic. Can we move on now?Eragon.
Harry Potter.
That should kill this topic.
Why would you want to?
This is way more informative than the 200 topics about Eragon and Harry Potter that essentially digress into mere disputes over taste. This is allaying some fears, and understanding/learning more about a major contest.
[This message has been edited by InarticulateBabbler (edited December 02, 2007).]
Thanks, that's a relief.
"Such questions should not be decided on pure emotion."
How then? Scientology presents itself as a religion. Such questions cannot be decided on logic alone. There will be an element of either emotion, belief or philosophy, depending on one's point of view.
"Every bio is incomplete." True. But this one's like Einstein's without relativity, or Asimov's without robots. The para quoted is trying to make the point specifically that Hubbard was more than an SF writer by listing his acheivements outside SF--without mentioning Dianetics and Scientology. It seems to me it's avoiding the issue, knowing that it's controversial and will dissuade some potential contestants.
"Are Algis Budrys and Jerry Pournelle liars? Or Dave Wolverton?" No. Nobody has suggested they are.
"And how do you know these individuals aren't, in fact, nice people?" Perhaps my use of words wasn't precise. Scientology has a reputation for being manipulative. That's not nice.
"As the link says, "entering or winning the contest does not require or imply endorsement or membership in the Church ..."
It would appear that WOTF endorses Scientology's claim to be a church. This, and the fact that WOTF is endorsed by many respectable SF writers gives Scientology an appearance of respect I find discomfitting.
"That should kill this topic." Surely it's important for writers who may consider participating in WOTF to understand how the connections (or lack thereof) between Hubbard, WOTF, Galaxy and Scientology are managed.
I had decided to leave it be some while ago, but the "unfounded paranoia" crack irked me. I also thought about the Fair Game policy and how (regardless of whether it's true or not, just the suggestion is scary enough) it might dissuade some from even participating in this discussion. I agree with IB. Let the thread allay fears and share more about this major contest.
Pat
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...there is some preference for stories with a moral or religious theme.-----------------------------------------------------------------
Morals aren't religion. I think they were refering to you "character's religion"--as in the development. I could have misunderstood this, but it wouldn't make much sense to want to see your religion; it would be a sign of an authors world-building skills to show their character's religion.
Re-read the quote that you yourself replied to. Saying "morals OR religion" clearly indicates they aren't the same. And I didn't say "the judge's religion." I said religion which obviously could be any religion. In many of the stories it would be christianity since so many of the stories are set in the present or near future, but they might not be.
However when religion and/or morals are used as a THEME, they pretty much aren't just "a part of worldbuilding." If you want to see good worldbuilding you say "we have a preference for stories with in depth worldbuilding." You don't say "there is a preference for stories with a religious theme." Theme and worldbuilding are quite different.
Do they want to see that the people who win have religious sensibilities? Do they feel that stories with a religious THEME have more depth? Do they think that stories with a religious theme are simply better? Maybe they don't even KNOW why they want to see stories with a religious theme. No clue. It's an interesting question.
Edit: Like Talespinner, I have kept thinking (and said) that I should let this thread be. It hasn't erupted into mass flames, but it keeps hovering on the edge. I must admit because of my own religious beliefs, I probably have less problem with the tenuous ties (which do seem to exist to some degree) between the contest and CoS. I find that amusing in my own little way.
[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited December 02, 2007).]
[This message has been edited by KStar (edited December 02, 2007).]
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If you have misgivings about the WOTF contest then don't enter it. Problem solved.
Just because an organization has a reputation(whether deserved or not falls outside of scope), doesn't mean that individuals of that organization are of that manner and cannot administer a contest completely independent of that organization.
Where does WOTF endorse Scientology as a church? As a contest/anthology, that would fall outside the scope of WOTF's intent. Again, if the aforementioned SF&F writers thought they were being used as PR puppets, and they would know better than we, logically they would withdraw their endorsement. Otherwise, they would be discredited.
I can't imagine someone like Card being silent. If CoS was to insert itself into and use WOTF in this manner, it would come to light by astute insiders such as he, destroy WOTF, and be bad PR. In the 25 years of WOTF, this has not happened.
But I agree, I'd rather turn away from the topic of religious conspiracy theories, and focus on the contest itself. Maybe this whole digression is a conspiracy to keep me from working on my Q108 story.
[This message has been edited by ChrisOwens (edited December 02, 2007).]
I have read that the anthology's publishing company is owned by CoS. I'm not sure if that is true or not. I have read that the administration is done by members of the CoS--indicated by comments that they seem nice. So this indicates at least some tenuous relationship. If someone is uncomfortabel with that, it seems to me that not entering is best. My feeling is that the relationship is too tenuous to worry about, and I don't worry about it.
Examining, discussing, and deciding on markets (including contests) is part of what we do as writers. It's part of the gig. Then--also being writers--we argue about it.
[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited December 02, 2007).]
If you read Volume 22, there are many stories that if anything could be classified as anti-religious such as On The Mount, or pro, such as At the Gate of God. I believe, though I can't find the source, that one year K.D. Wentworth mentioned that writers don't include religion enough. And I believe the reason it that because it is part of the human condition, driving people to acts of both good and evil, and therefore it should drive our characters thusly. And it could be that at times, relgion, science fiction and fantasy all touch on that sense of wonder, and sometimes intersect.
By comparison, Volume 23 did not seem to have as many religious or anti-religious themes. Therefore, I'm not sure it's a strong preference.
[This message has been edited by ChrisOwens (edited December 02, 2007).]
It may or may not be a strong preference. I never thought that ALL the stories had that kind of theme, but quite a number of them have over the years. Not that I've read all of them but I have read a couple of anthologies.
And if they have that preference, is there something wrong with it? I never said there was. I don't think there is. I don't think I'd re-write a good story to arbitrarily stick in some religioun, but if you have one with that kind of theme this might be a good place to use it.
[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited December 02, 2007).]
[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited December 02, 2007).]
I agree with the points you've made. I don't have any plans to enter the contest, but I love reading the volumes from it. I would absolutely enter the contest if I thought any of my stories were applicable.
The staff of Galaxy Press are all Scientologists. We publish the anthology. Galaxy Press is an LLC and its Manager is Author Services Inc. which is the literary agency of L. Ron Hubbard. Author Services also administers the contest itself, i.e. receives all submissions, forwards them to the judges, etc.
The connection with Scientology is L. Ron Hubbard who was a writer and who started out as a fiction writer in the 30's, wrote over 200 short stories, novelettes and novels before 1950. In 1950 he published Dianetics which set of a whirlwind, sold millions of copies just in the first few years and which consumed his life for the next 30 years. Right after the publication of the book, people showed up at his house in Elizabeth, New Jersey and camped out on his lawn demanding that he train them in the application of the Dianetics procedure. He started giving lectures on the subject, travelled through the country and the world giving lectures everywhere he went. This amounted to some 2000 public lectures he gave all in all.
This is probably a lot more than you all want to know, so the other thing I want to say is this; if the Writers of the Future Contest results in good publicity for L. Ron Hubbard, then it is well deserved considering all he has done. If you have a problem with that aspect because he was the founder of Scientology and because you don't like Scientology for whatever reason, then so be it. You don't have to submit to the contest. It's okay.
If you want to be taken off our mailing list, that's okay too. We take off anybody who wants to unsubscribe as the last thing we want is to send mail to somebody who doesn't want it.
On some post I read that you would like to get more tips and advice on the subject of writing. To that end we just started a forum and we had Tim Powers on it recently for a live discussion. He gave excellent insight from his experience as a writer and all that were part of the discussion enjoyed it immensly. You can still read the thread on our forum. I personally think it contains great advice for new writers.
We are trying to get Anne McCaffrey to join us at the forum and other judges such as Robert Sawyer and Kevin Anderson.
That was a mouthful from me.
[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited December 02, 2007).]
Right on.
As a result of this thread the links between WOTF, Hubbard and Scientology are clear to me, at last. Thanks one and all for not letting it descend into a flame war and becoming locked before questions were answered.
Pat
[This message has been edited by TaleSpinner (edited December 03, 2007).]
No offense, but did you have to strike that match? It veers completely from WOTF.
And since it appears that the questions have been answered, I'll go ahead and close the topic.
Thank you for your support.