The story just naturally wins. I hope to finish up Dreamer's Rose this weekend and get back to work on the query letter for The Shaman's Curse. The Shaman's Curse currently has 21 rejections.Now I want to be VERY clear that I'm not putting anyone down or trying to set myself up as superior, but I have to say I have a hard time relating to this and I am rather curious about it. I started submitting...going on two years ago, and I've had at least a few subs out constantly ever since. I have more than a dozen out now. I've sold one story (well and technically sold another until the editor decided to back out on me), and had probably now somewhere over 200 rejections.
I have been discouraged. I have been frustrated. I have "trunked" certain stories at least until I have the time and inclination to refurbish them with new skills and perspective. But I've always submitted and generally, when a story gets rejected it gets sent back out pretty quick.
I am a storyteller. Its part of who I am. Now that I've really started, I couldnt really stop if I wanted too. So, why not send them out, in the hopes of people seeing them, being paid for them, etc etc. As I see it the absolute worst that can happen is a nasty negative personal rejection.
So I am curious, those of you who don't do much submitting, what are some of your reasons? Simple lack of motivation? Fear of rejection/inadequacy? Again, I'm not looking to condem, I'm just curious and yeah, maybe I can spread some of my...spirit? Confidence? Whatever it is that keeps me submitting, to others.
For the novel, I've come to the conclusion that I need to really improve the query letter and synopsis in order to give it a chance. Both are an art entirely separate from the actual writing of the novel--and a craft I'm still working to learn. But it's really hard to force myself to work on the query letter or synopsis when my story wants to flow. The story just naturally wins. I hope to finish up Dreamer's Rose this weekend and get back to work on the query letter for The Shaman's Curse. The Shaman's Curse currently has 21 rejections.
I'm not a prolific (or very good) short story writer. I really have only one that I think is good enough at the moment, Dragons are Forever. And I got some very good feedback on that on its last rejection. So it's waiting in the to-be-revised stack at the moment. But it's got two rejections on it.
Edited: This one might make a reappearance in the Ready for Market Challenge in a month or so.
It's just a lull. They'll both be back out there. And Blood Will Tell will be following them, with luck before the end of the year (hopefully with a better title).
Edited: Well, I just took a look at the calendar. You know it's 80 degrees here and sometimes I forget. The end of the year might be a bit ambitious for putting a novel in shape for submission. Let's say March.
[This message has been edited by Meredith (edited October 23, 2009).]
Now, as it just so happens, I was recently sending out agent query letters for my YA novel, but paused when I decided that the letter was not getting the job done. Does this regrouping-of-sorts translate into a lack of confidence? Lack of confidence in the query letter the way it stands now? Yep. Even the single-digit number of rejections I received with it did not go over well with me. Lack of confidence in my ability to improve my writing skills? Absolutely not.
Oh...there's one other reason for my lack of recent submissions: two of my short stories have been in the same slush piles for over 250 days. Don't want to resubmit them if they're still in contention.
S!
S!
I don't have a big urge at this time to compete for page space in publications and don't need the money. Perhaps one day my goals will change, but for now it's a hobby I share only with a few close friends and a few other writers/critiquers.
I don't write much shorter fiction I could sell to other markets because I am so focused on this project. I am hoping to diversify my time a little after graduation ( no more school = more free time), where I can write some short stories for writer's of the future and OSC's literary boot camp. But for now, I just tap away on my novel.
So I guess it isn't that I'm afraid, or that I lack confidence, I'm just not ready. If I'm going to submit something. I want it to be worthy.
[This message has been edited by Unwritten (edited October 23, 2009).]
However, I have a friend who has been claiming he wants to be a writer since his senior year of high school (21 years ago). He has been writing most of that time but he has hardly submitted anything in those two decades. He keeps changing his universe and his characters. Nothing ever sticks.
Oh, and then there's the novel he's going to write but has never really started.
He actually has one really good story, but it didn't get into the anthology he wrote it for and I don't think he's ever sent it out again. I've also heard him say, 'I'd like to send x story out but I don't know where to send it'. I've told him about Duotrope and he knows about Writer's Market but he's mostly dodging the idea of submitting.
He's also constantly 'misreading' anthology and contest guidelines. He writes things with the wrong types of characters or the wrong length and then tries to salvage it at the last minute which is usually not suited to the story.
I think he's just scared. There's no other logical reason for it. He's been making excuses all this time instead of digging in and doing it. Do I really need to tell you that he's never sold a single piece?
If you don't submit, you don't sell, period. Submit and learn from your mistakes even if it's hard. Don't play wishing games for two decades.
(I will note that a little more care needs to be taken with novels as you don't get as many chances.)
I never knew there was a market for short stories until I joined this group (I never even heard of the writers of the future contest either), so the idea of publishing short stories never occured to me.
I have worked on other things in the meantime, and have come back to this story periodically (pun completely intended). I have a deep desire to make this story work (as I do all of my stories). So I have revised and edited and then revised some more - I am a devout perfectionist. I know this goes against renowned advice from OSC and the great Heinlein, but I have limited time due to my paying career, and I have a desire to see my work in "paper" print and somewhere that I could actually find it for sale (like a book store).
It is fine if someone wants to publish his or her story on the Internet. I'm not trying to downgrade that choice. There are some excellent stories out there, many better than what's in the Big Three. However, those other venues are not what I'm aiming for.
I have now worked the aforementioned story to the point where I don't feel I could ever touch it again. I'm sending it to WOTF (my third submission ever). If it bombs there, I'll send it to one more magazine and then I plan to sit on it. I have two other stories I will be editing and revising during this time. I will submit them when I feel they are the best I can get them. Meanwhile, I'm sure I'll start new stories that will line up behind the others.
I guess you could say I'm taking the "new" George Lucas approach, but I suppose that doesn't speak well for any of my quality concerns.
However, since my goal is to become a member of the SFWA, I need to submit. So I submit and get slammed against the wall with regularity. My last rejection proclaimed that my characters behaved with stupidity. Hmmm. At least it was a personalized rejection.
Part of it is not having submission goals. I'm committed to building up my active submission list to ten at any given time. My problem is a reticence to keep submitting a rejected story, even though I know that rejected stories do get picked up by other editors.
I also wasn't really reffering as much to new writers who are unsure how to submit (on a side note any of you that are new writers having trouble figuring out how or where to submit or whatever, feel free to email me if you want, submitting is one thing I think I've gotten pretty good at) but more those who have been at it a while and know how to submit but still don't for whatever reasons. I don't want to mention any of the specific names I remember since I don't know if they care to participate in the discussion, but more like what Owasm is saying is what I'm thinking of folks who do write a lot of shorts and know how to submit but have trepidtations of some sort or whatever.
quote:
I never knew there was a market for short stories until I joined this group (I never even heard of the writers of the future contest either), so the idea of publishing short stories never occured to me.
Hmm thats interesting. Maybe its because I've always read a lot of short stories but I've always had the idea since before I started writing that writers generally start with short stories and then (for those who want to) move on to novels as well, and that most writers publish short stories well before and often as part of garnering a reputation to help getting a novel published.
Not putting down what your saying at all, just interesting how we all see/hear/experience different stuff.
I have submitted one story, and it is sitting in a slush pile somewhere. I want to wait and get a reaction before I submit anything else. So I'm kind of stuck in waitingland. How long does it take to get rejected already?
~Sheena
quote:
I have submitted one story, and it is sitting in a slush pile somewhere. I want to wait and get a reaction before I submit anything else. So I'm kind of stuck in waitingland. How long does it take to get rejected already?
In my very limited experience, about 60 days.
I love my submission tracker... so great to have six or more stories going at once!
But the bulk of these happened before, oh, 1985 or so...since then my output has dwindled...and even more so in the last five years, with my output usually amounting to just one or two stories a year.
Also the bulk of my market---the places I'm willing to submit stories to---has shifted some. When I started, there were five SF places I regularly submitted to...this shifted to about ten at its peak...now it's down to three. (This excludes sending things every so often to a mystery or a slick magazine.)
(Also it only covers short stories...my novels, when I had 'em, usually got about a dozen rejections, nearly all on the "3-chapters-and-outline" deal.)
Shimiqua, response time varies enormously by market, but www.duotrope.com should give you a good idea of the turnround and activity on any given market - it is an invaluable writer's tool.
And very few editors will remember your name until you sell them something - they might well keep records and notes of why you were rejected but believe me, you won't see story X rejected just because story Y was rejected. Every story gets judged on its own merits until and unless you have a name that "sells". I don't believe any of my rejections have prevented me from getting a sale, and converesely no sale I've made has necessarily helped me get another one - I've sold one story to a market and then had a whole series rejected.
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So I am curious, those of you who don't do much submitting, what are some of your reasons?
To chip in with answers to your questions - my reasons are simply a combination of not writing enough due to time constraints, and discontent at the quality of my work such that I don't want it published and available publicly yet. And I know there's a big risk there - that I might never publish because nothing would ever be good enough, or that I won't publish this novel/story because I know I can do better - but I don't think I'm falling into that trap at all.
I don't have it handy, but I have a book titled Asimov on Science Fiction, in which (though I paraphrase heavily) he advised aspiring writers to seek publication as only in doing so will one have authoritative feedback as to the quality of one's writing.
The story I wrote last week I want to submit after the usual critting & editing cycle, and is probably the first story I've actually thought could be publishable. So publishing is on the cards. It's just a matter of time.
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I don't have it handy, but I have a book titled Asimov on Science Fiction, in which (though I paraphrase heavily) he advised aspiring writers to seek publication as only in doing so will one have authoritative feedback as to the quality of one's writing.
I don't think I've gotten anything but a form rejection slip in at least ten years...I don't regard that as "authorative feedback."
Guess I'll chip in my 2 cents worth. I don't submit much because I've chosen to limit myself to pro, SFWA-qualifying markets, which severely cuts down the number of submissions opportunities. Since I write a lot of stuff that's not up to pro levels yet, it's unpublishable in the markets I'm chasing.
I'm trying to avoid the perfectionist syndrome in my writing/submitting, but my "feedback" from WOTF indicates that I'm being realistic about the level of my writing. Recently I scored my first HM ever - everything before that was flat-out rejected, and looking back on it I can guarantee it deserved it. :-) Now I feel like I'm getting to the point where I won't be squirming in embarrassment if, a few months from now, I look back on what I wrote and submitted, so maybe I'll start submitting around more.
For me, being published is the icing on the cake. The writing is the cake itself and I'm a big fan of cake...
I am also looking at mostly pro or semi-pro, so that takes some sorting through.
For a long time it was procrastinating *that* work that kept me from submitting. It's hard because I have limited "writing time" and doing this market research feels like it's taking away time from my writing time bucket. It's also such a small dollar amount for most, it's hard to prioritize it above other things in life.
Even just tracking what is out to which market is time-consuming and something I procrastinate (I could write a book on procrastination, if only I could find the time, LOL!) I finally did dust off the spreadsheet I built a year or so ago (based on a number of other writer's tracking sheet ideas that I combined into one unified thing.) But it's complicated tracking what went where, when it comes back where does it go next, which markets are open/closed/temp open/temp closed, which story fits best with where, etc. etc.
I also have had some of what I hear in the replies on this thread, doubts about the quality of my work, though I'm learning to just get over that.
A lot of my stories are in a 90% finished status. I need to invest that last 10% in edits, writing the one or two scenes I've identified I need, asking for one last crit from a few readers, making the updates, etc. It's hard to prioritize that work as well, since writing new fiction is almost without fail more enjoyable.
And Duotrope is great for finding markets. You can designate pro and semi-pro in your search and there's links to all of the websites so it only takes a click or two to find out if it's a dead market.
Hope this helps.
Log into duotrope (have specific story in mind)
Enter search terms
Realize the search was too broad, 200 markets returned, cannot think through that many, return and narrow search terms
Begin clicking through Duotrope's results list
Start making short list of potential markets...based on...payment, type of fiction they're looking for, general appeal, length they accept, whether this seems similar to what they publish, response times, etc.
If not familiar with a market - go to the magazine's website to try to get a better feel for what they publish
For every potential market, look up submission criteria
Decide which market to submit to
Check and re-check submission criteria
Make sure MS is formatted properly
Log it in tracking spreadsheet
Write cover letter (I use some standard wording, but I still try to address it to the editor by name whenever possible, which involves more clicking through on the website)
Upload submission
Chew nails
Begin process anew for next story in inventory, which is a little darker than that one, less of a sci-fi element, meaning the short-list of markets for last submission is not relevant. Re-start search.
It's just time consuming. I'd say about 30 mins per story. Maybe it goes more quickly when you've been doing it for a long time, you probably have certain markets you start with, but for me that matching up story to market and confirming length/submission criteria is killing me! I keep finding these GREAT markets, that only accept submissions up to 4k words (most of my stories are around 5500 words, no idea why, but it seems an in-between length.)
I wish you luck in finding the time to submit and get your pieces published.
quote:
Log into duotrope (have specific story in mind)
Enter search terms
Realize the search was too broad, 200 markets returned, cannot think through that many, return and narrow search terms
Begin clicking through Duotrope's results list
Start making short list of potential markets...based on...payment, type of fiction they're looking for, general appeal, length they accept, whether this seems similar to what they publish, response times, etc.
If not familiar with a market - go to the magazine's website to try to get a better feel for what they publish
For every potential market, look up submission criteria
Decide which market to submit to
Check and re-check submission criteria
OK, first off, duotrope lets you tailor your search parameters and sort sequence. So you can search by genre, by pay type, by length, and then sort the results by pay. You can even automatically drop markets that you have already sent a story to. Think about it; when you waant to submit a story, you are going to submit it to just ONE market. Giving yourself 200 to look through is counterproductive. Trying to second-guess yourself and an editor on "a good fit" is arguably also counter-productive - it is the editor's job to decide that, NOT yours. I have had rejections for stoies I thought were a perfect fit, and I have had sales that, frankly, surprised me. Yes, you need to make sure that you aren't sending SF to a fantasy market, or heroic fantasy to a market that doesn't want heroic fantasy... but to be honest, most markets worth submitting to have pretty simple guidelines on what they do or don't want, or are very flexible indeed (Fantasy magazine, for instance, takes... Fantasy. Of pretty much any stripe if it's good enough, but it must be Fantasy).
I keep a spreadsheet of submissions of my own, which arguably duplicates duotrope, but allows me to do searches and statistics that duotrope does not. Between the two, I reckon it takes me no longer than two or three minutes to go "I have story X needing to go to market; I have nothing at market Y; I will send story X to market Y". Yes, I then have to confirm the length and formatting requirements - but again, the majority of (worthwhile) markets are perfectly fine with standard formatting (but I should enhance my spreadsheet just to flag up "non-standard" formatting markets, so I know which ones I need to check).
I suspect I would be overwhelmed by markets, as you seem to be, if I submitted to non-paying ones, so that may be one of the reasons you are having problems. I honestly recommend people NOT to submit to non-paying markets. Very few non-paying markets have significant readership (yes, there are a tiny handful of exceptions - but how are you going to know which those are?) or significant "cachet". Frankly they are only a tiny step above publishing stories on your own website (in that an external editor has selected your story). You may get a nice warm glow from the thought that you've been published... and if a nice warm glow is all you write for, I guess it's fair enough. But if what you have done is worthwhile, someone will pay you for it - and there are very few other ways of knowing whether what you have done is worthwhile.
[This message has been edited by tchernabyelo (edited October 27, 2009).]
Duotrope does have a lot of tools to use with search, but I've found some of them don't function quite right. For instance, searching on semi-pro payment and up gives me 136 markets when I restrict for just sci-fi. What it's doing is actually giving me ANY market that pays semi-pro. Several of the markets listed are token to semi-pro.
If I search only for pro payment sci-fi, I get 45 primary matches (including temporarily closed ones) and 21 secondary matches (ones that list that they're open to most all genres, so they might not be a fit for my wacky hijinks on the moon story.)
Hiding temp closed I'm down to 35 primary, 18 secondary. I suspect you could glance through the list and have opinions about the pubs, but I don't know the markets well enough. I don't read a lot of short fiction magazines other than Flash Fiction Online, which I'm a slush reader for. I always feel a little guilty about that when sending my stories off (that I'm not also a subscriber to these pubs who I want to pay me for my stories), but it's an hours in the day thing.
I only send to semi-pro/pro pubs, as I am of the opinion that it makes more sense to start from the top.
I think I will get quicker at this over time, but the original poster was asking why people don't submit, and for me it's this kind of time figuring out market/story matches that takes me away from writing that does it.
It also could be the types of stories I write. I write sci-fi, but almost no hard sci-fi. I also write a fair amount of contemporary fantasy, but virtually no classic fantasy (swords/sorcery/gods/goddesses/mythological beings/etc.)
Sorry to have been absent. Took a year off after Nano last November (read brain fried), and am now ready to get back in the saddle. Thought I'd drop in on this conversation and say hi at the same time.
I have the opposite problem. I usually submit TOO soon, often when a story is done, moving in the right direction, initially polished, but not quite right yet. I sub it a couple of times as it cools off, and then get it tinkered with enough to sell by round 3 or 4. The problem, though, is that I might have already subbed it to the market that might have bought it when it was finally ready.
Dunno.
I do have some concerns (forgive me if this seems overly harsh), reality check concerns when fledgling writers refuse to submit to anything but Pro pubs. Pick up the next issue of Asimov's or F&SF. Are there EVER any pieces in there where the bio says, "This is Bob's FIRST publication credit in his life?" No.
I'm not saying you have to plumb the depths and breadths of non-paying markets before you move up to Pro. But couldn't part of the problem be that people are hesitant to sub because they instinctually know that their product isn't pro-level? I can certainly tell when I have something that seems a cut above my usual dreck.
According to Duotrope, I'm 29 for 156 (18.5%) since my first submission(s) on December 4, 2007. Two of those pubs were reprints, and ten of them payed at the Semi-Pro level, with the rest being Token or Nonpaying. But, only 3 of those subs were ever even sent to Pro pubs. I knew then that I was only doing it to say that I'd sub'd there. And I still know that I may never write at the Pro level.
"And this, above all. To thine own self be true," said Polonius to Laertes, in Act 1 of Hamlet.
Some folks here have it. I've seen it. I've read their work. And for the most part, I've read their work in Token and Semi-Pro pubs. And I was proud of them for deciding that getting some experience being published, which includes learning how to successfully match work to markets and reviewing and signing contracts, was more important than holding out hope that they might one day create a Pro-Worthy product.
And some of those folks have already sold at the Pro Level. But most of them also worked for peanuts for a while before they got a taste of the caviar.
Anyway... I'm obviously on my high horse today. My apologies for going on and on. I guess I would just say that you should be honest with yourself. And it will be easier to be honest with yourself if you go out to do some subbing. Because in the process of finding markets that fit, you'll end up reading a lot more work by people who have already been published. And that will be just as helpful as hoping thatyou finally hit a home run out of nowhere.
That's my nickel, anyway.
T2
[This message has been edited by Igwiz (edited October 27, 2009).]
[This message has been edited by Igwiz (edited October 27, 2009).]
First; yes, if you say "semi-pro and up" you will get markets that pay in the "token to semi-pro range" - that's because duotrope can't second-guess whether your particular story at that particular market will or won;t reach whatever criteria are needed to count as "semi-pro". However, remember you can order the results by pay rate, not just alphabetical. Also, if you don;t want to submit by post, you can choose the submission type as electronic. And so on and so forth - it really is worth playing around with it a bit to see how the various filters work in combination.
I was surprised by your "45 and 21" figures for pro SF markets but you're right - however you're only right IF you don't select anything in the "length" option. Generally, if you are looking for a market for a particular story, you should know what length it is; entering that will cut down the results (in some cases significantly).
One of the annoying things duotrope has recently done is not showing the full range of genres that a market will take, so you can't easily winnow the genuine SF markets from markets that claim to (but extremely rarely do) take a wide range of genres (e.g. I see things like "Jack and Jill Magazine" turning up for SF - it's possible they do print the occasional SF story but it's a good bet that something rejected by "Asimov's" isn't likely to find a home there instead!). It looks as if SF is much more prone than fantasy to have these other markets turning up.
I streamlined my process when I started submitting large volumes of stories. When I had five stories out, it wasn't an issue. When I had 20 out at a time, and had rejections coming back, and needed to make sure I didn't send a story back to a market it had been rejcted from a year earlier (I have managed to do that twice; once my own system caught it, once duotrope caught it, so I was able to pull the story immediately), I knew I needed a proper process. The main core of my submission spreadhseet is simple enough; story down the left, market across the top. Conditional colour formatting so I can see at a glance (I enter P for pending and it goes yellow; R for rejected it goes red; A for accepted and it goes green). Simple totaling across the rows and columns allow me, should I so wish, to see how many times a given story has been rejected, or what my performance is at a given market (varying from 100% rejections through to 100% acceptances). If I sub to a new market I just add a column; if I write a new story I just add a new line. Very simple.
Now, how do I know which markets to choose? Well, that's just experience/practice. Just hanging around in other grops with other writers should start to give you ideas about what markets you want to be in. Anything that's SFWA pro-rated is probably your top choice. After that, judge on pay rate and whether you hear people talking about a given market (e.g. some markets may be mid-range for pay but seem to get lots of reviews, attention, etc; others you very rarley hear of. Now which of those do you want to be published in?). In general I try and check the "what's new" function every week to see what markets have been listed (you can get this by email, I believe), and do a quick check on paying ones to see whether or not they might be of interest to me. That normally only takes a few clicks to decide whether a market is or is not worth bothering with (e.g. any grammar errors on its "about us" page and you can forget about it - and yes, I've seen plenty).
Markets do change, do come and go, but in general I am subbing now to mostly the same markets I was subbing to three years ago - WOTF, IGMS, Fantasy, Strange Horizons, ASIM, Abyss and Apex, Black Gate, Heliotrope, Ideomancer, Realms of Fantasy (postal subs manageable now I am in the US - they were a pain from abroad) and so forth. Quite a few markets have closed, a few I've "blacklisted" for my own reasons (the style of rejection, ncredible slowness, editorial policies, whatever), others have opened,so the spreadsheet always changes. But this is all part of being a writer. In any job, there are things you enjoy and things you don't - but there also thngs that are important. And, for a writer, submitting is arguably MORE important than actually writing. Anyone can claim they are a writer. I can point to books on shelves, magazines on racks, web pages (both subscription and free) in support of that claim. The difference between a "real" (=published) writer and an unpublished wannabe may simply be that one submitted their work and the other didn't - I certainly know of peopl who can write great stuff but hardly ever sell because they hardly ever submit (hell, from my early LH days I could name three who were, are, and probably always will be better writers than me... but who have maybe five sales between them).
quote:/
According to Duotrope, I'm 29 for 156 (18.5%) since my first submission(s) on December 4, 2007. Two of those pubs were reprints, and ten of them payed at the Semi-Pro level, with the rest being Token or Nonpaying. But, only 3 of those subs were ever even sent to Pro pubs. I knew then that I was only doing it to say that I'd sub'd there. And I still know that I may never write at the Pro level.
18.5% is a very good return on investment (so to speak). The old rule of thumb is that you get 1 sale for about every 20 subs. I suggest you should try more pro-level subs
My success rate (accoring to my own spreadsheet) is 13%, across my entire submitting "career" - and I think 10 or 11 of my 32 sales would actually count as token payment ones. Duotrope thinks my success rate for the past 12 months is 22.58%, which is almost 1 in four - sounds good, but not a pro sale in there. I think last time I checked my success on pro-rate sales was down close to 1 in 20, maybe even lower. That's what needs to increase, for me. I can sell work, but not nearly consistently at the high level markets (unlike, say Aliette (Silver3), who has a whole raft of pro sales under her belt by now).
quote:
But this is all part of being a writer. In any job, there are things you enjoy and things you don't - but there also things that are important.
Great point. 100% valid.
Thanks for the reminder about searching by length. I had a feeling I could optimize my searching but didn't hit on this. This will save me a lot of time, can't tell you how many times last week I read the description of a 'zine, looked at the website, thought "how perfect for my xyz story..." and then realized they capped entries at 4k words and I had a 5.5k story. Argh!
Igwiz, your comments are appreciated, but I still believe it's wisest for me, at least, to submit to semi-pro and up markets. I've cut my teeth, I've put in my time, I've written my terrible stuff already. I've got more terrible stuff to write in the future, but I'm not going to get stuck in the "can't sell til I sell" mobius loop. I think that there's a minimum level of competence that writers need to reach, but I've had enough objective feedback (and HMs from WOTF) to believe I've passed through that particular gate. I know your comments were general in nature, but I wanted to give voice to the others reading this thread saying "Hey, wait a minute...my stuff isn't *that* bad...is it?" As a group, we writers tend to be way more sensitive and down on ourselves/our skills than any other audience I've ever seen or worked with. I have a feeling this is a big barrier to submitting for many writers, too.
I've missed you guys. Glad to be back. Glad your move to the States went well. Hope we're being good to you.
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18.5% is a very good return on investment (so to speak). The old rule of thumb is that you get 1 sale for about every 20 subs. I suggest you should try more pro-level subs
Yes, that is a pretty good (read LUCKY) number. It is caveated, though, but the fact that I'm both a genre and a literary writer. I know that I should push myself to sub to more pro markets. The problem is that the "Pro" definition gets shaky when you move into literary writing. Case in point -- at least half of the literary markets that are included in Duotrope's "25 Most Challenging Markets" are nonpaying, for both fiction and poetry.
So, regarding genre writing, I totally understand recommending not to sub to non-paying markets. And, for the most part, I still don't sub to non-paying, and try to stay away from Token. But in many cases, the most challenging literary markets are just as likely to be Non-paying as they are Pro. And if I ever make it into the Alaska Quarterly Review or Caketrain, you'll hear me shouting it from the rooftops, even though they never even thought about cutting me a check.
KayTi -- I totally respect your decision to sub to Pro-Only. That's your call. But I do echo Tchern's statement that writing is only part of the job of being a WRITER. At the end of the day, it's a "Diff'rent Strokes for Diff'rent Folks." Submit if you want, don't submit if you don't want to.
And that, I guess, is my final point. I guess personally find it much harder to take a "writer" seriously if they tell me they have a couple "mostly-finished" novels, 25 shorts and a dozen poems floating around in the drawer, but NONE of them are out working. There are people who put words on the page, and then there are writers who engage in all aspects of the process. In my opinion, you may be trying to become a writer, but you aren't REALLY a writer until you find a venue for your work. If your stories/poems/novels aren't out at market working for a living -- getting beat up and knocked around and judged by editors, then you're a "creative typist," not a writer.
Anyway... thanks for providing me a forum to ramble.
[This message has been edited by Igwiz (edited October 28, 2009).]
Yeah, New Mexico's being pretty good to us so far
But, if a piece isn't making it in those markets, I will then start searching for a lower market that really seems to fit the style of the piece.
Also, I have two pieces that are 1200 words. If they don't make it in their current round, I'm going to try shaving off a couple of words and sending them out as flash. It will open up a lot of possibilities.
And I'm always going to recommend starting at pro markets, too. My first sub was to a pro market and it sold right off the bat. It's been reprinted (and the reprint anthology was then turned into an audio-book) and thus has earned me a few hundred dollars. Imagine if I'd sent it to a market that only paid $5...
Also I'm going to talk a bit about the concept of "good" writing and the objectivity/subjectivity of art: we all talk about becoming "better" writers, but for me, that means learning how to do more, use more complex storytelling techniques and otherwise better convey our stories to people and does not include any sort of value judgement about "quality" in some objective sense.
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Fantasy magazine, for instance, takes... Fantasy. Of pretty much any stripe if it's good enough, but it must be Fantasy
I have two problems with this sentence. One, about Fantasy Magazine itself. While its guidlines do say anything with a fantasitcal element is welcome, in practice they are to me almost a rather limited market in some ways. The vast majority of stories I've read on there have been what I might call of an "experimental" nature or at the very least, they tend to be contemporary-setting pieces that often lack much in the way of coherent plot or clear resolution. Although some (such as the one you have in there, tchern, which is in total honesty one of my favorites that I've read in that publication) do have non-modern/real world settings, they don't seem to publish alternate-world "high/epic/sword and sorcery" type fantasy at all, nor even much in the way of straightforward modern fantasy.
My other issue lies with the phrase "if its good enough." I believe very strongly that all forms of art are a good 98% subjective (the other 2% being basic things like spelling, grammar etc which are objective...although even some of those can be ignored in pursuit of a story.) I don't really believe in the concept of objectively "bad" art, and to some extent and in some ways therefore I also don't feel any is objectively absolutely "good" in that any piece is going to have people that love it and people that don't like it. In the end, its mostly a matter of opinion.
For me, much of what I've read in Fantasy Magazine (and various other high paying and/or SFWA markets) isn't "as good" as much of what I've read in various low-paying markets. But thats just my opinion.
To me what a publication will or won't publish or what have you isn't some objective measure of "quality". I don't believe the works in Fantasy Magazine or Asimov's or whatever are, as stories, in some way objectively "better" than stories in say Shimmerzine, or Allegory, or GUD or whatever. Editors, in my opinion and experience basically publish what they want to publish based largely on their own personal and subjective tastes and opinions.
I mean, I'm pretty sure there are stories that have been rejected from one high-paying SFWA market, and accepted by another. A lot of it is opinion and also the particular nature of the publication...even pro writers have said stuff often gets rejected not because its "bad" or even "not good enough" but because it simply doesn't fit a given publication.
I bring this up in this case though largely because it seems many of the main reasons mentioned here for not submitting works all basically boil down to not believing a work is "good enough" and/or fear of rejection (basically the same thing.) Now of course, we're all going to feel this way some times. For many of us, myself included fear of not being able to write at all or well enough may have been a roadblock to our actually starting to write at all.
I think we hear a little too much about this kind of thing. I think we objectify our art too much at times, we place some publications above others in terms of the supposed "quality" of their contents (as oposed to their usefulness or profitability as submission venues) and decide that because they reject our work it isn't "good enough."
Putting that or at least my own views about "good" and "bad" aside, those of you who've said you don't submit stories because you don't feel they are "good" enough, I ask you in that line of thought how do you truly know how "good" they are if you don't get them out and let them be viewed by those that (to me you seem to believe or feel) are the ones that decide if they are good enough? I mean I'm a believer in the inherent value of creative works but if you create a story what reason is there not to try and share it with others, and heck why not try to get paid, even if its not much, along the way?
For myself, I have a lot of stories on hand. I've only sold one thus far (although I have various reasons to feel thats going to change a bit soon) and many of my pieces have recieved rejections from many markets of many levels.
Currently where I send a piece at any given moment is effected by many factors including how likely a piece is to fit a market, the speed of the market, its pay rate and notoriety and how likely the market is to give feedback in the event of a rejection.
New pieces of late I usually start off in, depending on the piece, Fantasy Magazine, ASIM, Shimmer, Clarksworld, GUD, Ideomancer etc. I don't do postal subs at this point for several reasons, cost and time being one. Another being two fold: there aren't THAT many more markets that only take postal subs and of those several would not consider any of what I write for genre reasons. In the case of "the big three" well two are sci fi only markets essentially and I don't really write sci fi, and further I tend to agree with Igwiz that those markets and a few others are extremely unlikely to accept someone with essentially no prior publications anyway.
I understand people not wanting to send a brand new piece directly to a token-paying market. I do so less now myself, though not as much because I feel myself to be a somehow objectively "better" writer, but rather because I think I have reached a greater understanding of some particular markets and how to incorporate that into my writing while having it still be my writing.
However, I can't see why if you've run a piece by a number of genre and story appropriate pro and semi pro markets and had it rejected, one wouldn't send it to perfect nice well done token-paying publications like Allegory, Reflections Edge, etc etc.
I also don't really get going so far as to limit oneself to pro only or even more, SFWA only.
I think that the idea of not really wanting to submit stories until one writes something that is "good enough" for the pros can become a bit of a trap. How do you know, really? When do you finally start, as Igwiz says, to go through the whole proccess of being a writer (at least a writer in the sense of being or trying to be published by someone else.)
I really urge everybody to have more confidence in their stories and their storytelling abilities, to maybe worry a little less about other peoples ideas of whats "good" or not and which places are or aren't worthwhile. I know many of you have very specific goals in mind and specific plans to achieve them and thats great. I'm not trying to criticise any such people. But I do feel like some folks are selling themselves short and maybe missing out a bit because of the emphasis on objective ideas of "good" and and "not as good" stories and the importance of certain specific markets.
Despite all the rejections and only selling a single story, my writing has brought me and others great joy, and the very proccess of submitting...finding markets, reading their guidlines perhaps reading a few of the stories therein for guidance, trying to understand what they want and which stories might best fit which places, its all been a blast for me and something I really encourage everybody to jump into.
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I ask you in that line of thought how do you truly know how "good" they are if you don't get them out and let them be viewed by those that (to me you seem to believe or feel) are the ones that decide if they are good enough?
Because I can't reread them without wincing? Seriously, when I say many of my short stories turn to mush about two-thirds of the way through, you have no idea how truly awful that is. And it's plot, not writing. Now, my novels don't do that. I can reread a novel--and a very few novellas, one short story, and a vignette--and smile. I know they're good or at least can be with a little more work, no matter what anybody else says. The others just aren't. They were still good writing experience. But they are not leaving my computer. Ever.
Some of those things I reread and think are good haven't been submitted anywhere either. Just one novel and one short story, so far.
The other novels aren't ready, yet. They need more polish and some revisions to expand or even change some plot elements. And a few readers.
The novellas aren't ready, either. Since they're such an inconvenient length, I haven't done much to them since the first draft. One novella I'm actually considering trying to turn into a novel. I know what happens to these characters for the next couple of years and there could be a novel in that. But I have to plot it out, flesh out some characters who barely made an appearance in the novella, etc. And I really feel like I want to change the beginning, but I haven't figured out how, yet.
The short story has been out and got some useful feedback which I'm still processing. It'll get some revisions before it goes out again. Since I'm doing revisions on BLOOD WILL TELL right now, it probably won't be ready for this month's Ready for Market Challenge. Maybe in December.
The vignette is just that. I like it, but I have to admit it doesn't really have much conflict or a great deal of plot. There might be a place out there for it. Or this might be an example of something that I would eventually put on a web site, especially since it takes place in the same world as THE SHAMAN'S CURSE and THE IGNORED PROPHECY.
The novelette is another whole problem. I like it. But I have not found a market that it's right for. Not even when I expand the search to non-paying. At 16,500 words, it's a novelette by Duotrope's standards--just. But the markets that might otherwise be perfect for it cap submissions at 8,000 to 12,000 words. And there just aren't a lot of markets for novellas.
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really urge everybody to have more confidence in their stories and their storytelling abilities, to maybe worry a little less about other peoples ideas of whats "good" or not and which places are or aren't worthwhile. I know many of you have very specific goals in mind and specific plans to achieve them and thats great. I'm not trying to criticise any such people. But I do feel like some folks are selling themselves short and maybe missing out a bit because of the emphasis on objective ideas of "good" and and "not as good" stories and the importance of certain specific markets.
I am not sure people are not submitting because of confidence issues. We all have these stories in our heads, but translating them to paper is hard. Personally, I don't share my writing until I feel that I have done the best I can to put those stories into words. And I won't seek publication until I have sent it out to beta readers to make sure my translation works for others as well. It is a lot of work, and it takes a lot of time, but we are crazy people.
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My other issue lies with the phrase "if its good enough." I believe very strongly that all forms of art are a good 98% subjective (the other 2% being basic things like spelling, grammar etc which are objective...although even some of those can be ignored in pursuit of a story.) I don't really believe in the concept of objectively "bad" art, and to some extent and in some ways therefore I also don't feel any is objectively absolutely "good" in that any piece is going to have people that love it and people that don't like it. In the end, its mostly a matter of opinion.
Writing a good story is 98% subjective and the other 2% is grammar and spelling??? I don’t get this? The only thing we need to be good writers is spelling (which thankfully spell check assists us with or I‘d be in serious trouble) and grammar? This implies that story telling is not a skill, that there is nothing to learn. If that is true, then what is the point of this writer’s forum?
I think it is more like 50% subjective and 50% objective. There are definitely skills that we can learn to write more clearly and tools that create emotional resonance with the reader. To say that everything is basically subjective is a defeatist attitude and doesn’t allow self reflection and growth, IMO.
I'll admit not much "second world" or heroic fantasy gets into Fantasy Magazine, but it can and does happen. I had a second-world fantasy rejected, but I was told the only reason they didn't buy it was they'd recently bought a similar story.
As for "if it's good enough" - I pretty much took it as a given that much of what makes a story "good" is a subjective judgement by an editor. A reader's judgements are bound to vary. I've read some terrific stuff at Fantasy, and some stuff that I wouldn't have gone near with an editorial hat on. Same at Strange Horizons, same at Clarkesworld, same at Helix, same at Abyss and Apex, same even to some extent at BCS (which as a market comes closest to the stuff I would generally publish). Some editors, and some readers, "get" a story and some don't. Editors have a thankless task, really; they have to balance what they like with what they believe their readership will want and like. Since you can never please all the people all the time, they are inevitably going to be criticised over their choices.
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I am not sure people are not submitting because of confidence issues. We all have these stories in our heads, but translating them to paper is hard. Personally, I don't share my writing until I feel that I have done the best I can to put those stories into words. And I won't seek publication until I have sent it out to beta readers to make sure my translation works for others as well. It is a lot of work, and it takes a lot of time, but we are crazy people.
There is a saying about paintings, that one is never finished, only abadoned. What some have said here is basically that they are having trouble learning to "abandon" their stories. And at least some have indicated that its due to fears of their work not being "good enough" for publication. Not that we don't all worry about that and not that we don't want to try and fine tune our stuff before sending it out.
But if a person has been writing a while has multiple short stories finished up and says they are interested in publication yet is rarely submitting well...I mean nobody is a bigger believer than me that theres no one path to this, but as has been said the one way to assure you arent going to get published is not to submit.
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Writing a good story is 98% subjective and the other 2% is grammar and spelling??? I don’t get this? The only thing we need to be good writers is spelling (which thankfully spell check assists us with or I‘d be in serious trouble) and grammar?
No, look more closely. I said that I don't feel applying objective value judgement based ideas like "good" and "bad" to writing works particularly well, because it is mostly a matter of taste which is subjective. The technical aspects such as grammar and spelling are the only aspects that can truly be judged in an objective way. And even then, its not a matter of good or bad, its a matter of correct or incorrect. cat is spelld C-A-T for everyone, that isn't a matter of taste, opinion or point of view. Most or all of the artistic aspects of writing/storytelling are however.
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I think it is more like 50% subjective and 50% objective. There are definitely skills that we can learn to write more clearly and tools that create emotional resonance with the reader.
Emotional resonance is VERY subjective. Yes, there are many things that are probably going to resonate with a lot of people but for instance, I find Tolkien's work deeply emotionally moving, but I know more than one person that finds it boring and uninvolving.
Is one of us right, and the other wrong? If not, if it can be either at the same time, then it is subjective, not objective.
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To say that everything is basically subjective is a defeatist attitude and doesn’t allow self reflection and growth, IMO.
And I feel exactly the same about the objectification of art. It most certainly does not inspire self reflection...in fact the oposite it says "look to this to see how to do it correctly" and if it promotes growth its only in a single direction, or leastways a limited number of directions. If you put it into terms of "good/bad" and "right/wrong" then people aren't going to self reflect, they are going to look to those who do it "right" and follow that, follow the rules rather than discovering their own "right."
And I feel this is part of what leads to people feeling their work isn't "good enough" to submit. Certain paths, in the form of specific fiction markets, or the styles of certain successful writers are put up as an objective "good" to be followed, but if a persons writing doesn't fit into that, doesn't "live up to the standard" then it must not be good enough and needs to be changed.
When in fact generally what makes the decisions about those things...about what gets published or not and where...are simply specific peoples opinions.
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This implies that story telling is not a skill, that there is nothing to learn. If that is true, then what is the point of this writer’s forum?
This is where the self reflection you mention comes in. The point is to help each person achieve their personal writing goals, both artistically/creatively and in terms of publication or whatever. Its about context. Each person has their style and voice, and there intentions and goals with each piece. Thats why the site instructions say for an author to include their intentions for the piece and the type of feedback they wish to recieve when posting, yet often when a writer does that they are chided for it. The point is to help each writer find their way and improve within the context of the kind of writer they want to be and the kind of stories they wish to tell.
I just feel like this forum some times gets a bit too hung up on certain viewpoints, certain markets, certain goals and forgets that not everyone has the same goals and also that with each goal theres generally going to be more than one way of getting there. I think some times writers whose work doesn't fit a specific mold or set of subjective criteria that are basically just some peoples opinions wind up feeling like they arent "good enough."
I don't think Hatrack is nearly as "unified" in terms of what is and is not good as you seem to suggest. Nor is the publishing world. Stories that some people love, other people hate; happens all the time. Some stories that millions of people love are hugely derided (often by other writers - think of Dan Brown, Stephanie Meyer, even J K Rowling, all of whom have been roundly and repeatedly criticised over the quality of their writing by people who have a fraction of their "success"). The argument over whether something is by definition good if it is popular, or whether there is an objective standard, has been going on for as long as there's been literary analysis/criticism/reviews. And won't stop now, or at any time in the future. Event the "fixed" elements you cite - spelling, grammar - have been successfully subverted (Ulysses by Joyce for grammar as an example, Riddley Walker by Russel Hoban in regard to spelling).
One can refuse to be cowed by a perceived tyranny of opinion. One may be successful - clearly some are. One may not. New movements can come out of some lonely plowed furrow of deterination. Alternatively, one may end up with fantastically incomprehensible examples of outsider art (I'm thinking Henry Darger here...). Ultimtely, history will "judge" (writers of the past thought of as great in their time are now forgotten; others, seen as hacks, are now lionised - and this is even more applicable in the art world than the literary one), but even that judgement will and must be subjective.
First, I want to be published, because in some way, publication means validation. Even if it was published without payment (and as I said, for me, I submit to non-paying markets that are literary rather than genre), it means that it passed through some form of selection process and was assessed as "desirable."
Second, submitting makes me produce more. I hear several voices above say, "I only sub to WOTF." So does that mean that you only produce 4 stories a year?
Whenever I have all my polished pieces out to sub (which is most of the time), part of my brain is going, "Uh-oh... I NEED to write." And, as a result, I write more. That works for me.
But your writing gets better by writing. You can only edit so much, and it doesn't necessarily make you a better storyteller.
Anyway... I've sold / published 30 out of 52 pieces (23 fiction, 29 poems), over total of 162 subs (with 12 pending) in the last 1.8 years of subbing. Would I have written that many things if I hadn't had most of that work out to sub. No, I wouldn't. I would have been piddling with it, and thinking of ways to make it "perfect," rather than abandoning it as "as good as it's going to get right now," subbing it, and writing something new.
Now, before anybody gets their panties in a twist, I'm NOT saying that YOU wouldn't write more if you didn't have subs out, I'm just saying that I wouldn't.
That's it. I create them, I polish them to as high a sheen as I can in the amount of time I give them, and then I ship them out there into the world. If they get beat up on the playground, I take them back, I rub peroxide on the scrapes, teach them how to dodge and weave, and then shove them back out there.
[This message has been edited by Igwiz (edited November 06, 2009).]
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Pick up the next issue of Asimov's or F&SF. Are there EVER any pieces in there where the bio says, "This is Bob's FIRST publication credit in his life?" No.
Sorry, just noticed that reference above. I can't speak to those two markets, but I do know that IGMS was my first ever publishing credit, and I do know that Clarkesworld has published at least two authors who have never been published before, and I know of at least one case at Strange Horizons. I strongly suspect other examples could and would come to light if I looked hard enough.
The chances aren't great - but they aren't great for ANYONE, first-timer or no. And offhand I know of just one person on here who only submits to pro markets; most of the pro-published people submit to semi-pro as well.
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No, look more closely. I said that I don't feel applying objective value judgement based ideas like "good" and "bad" to writing works particularly well, because it is mostly a matter of taste which is subjective. The technical aspects such as grammar and spelling are the only aspects that can truly be judged in an objective way. And even then, its not a matter of good or bad, its a matter of correct or incorrect. cat is spelld C-A-T for everyone, that isn't a matter of taste, opinion or point of view. Most or all of the artistic aspects of writing/storytelling are however.
Individual tastes are subjective in terms of writing style and story lines, but I can judge my own work as good or bad.
I consider my writing good if I am able to transfer my vision to paper and if I am able to convey the ideas and emotion to at least some of my beta readers. Not all because I do know that some people will never like my stories, but if no one gets it, then I have to admit failure.
These "rules" of writing that you always argue against have helped me tremendously. I don't use them as strict guidelines but more as diagnostic tools. There are times when I knew that a scene wasn't working, but I didn't know why or how to fix it. When I learned about "show don't tell" and "beats" and using strong verbs instead of verb adverb combos, etc., I finally had the tools to diagnose and fix the problems.
I understand getting frustrated when people act like these "rules" must be strictly adhered to at all times, and I by no means believe that they should be. The writer should do what he or she thinks is best for his/her story. But I do think that every writer should be aware of them and have a healthy amount of respect for them. They are tools to be used when needed.
Anyway, I can't speak for anyone else, but for me when I say my writing isn't "good enough" it isn't lack of confidence but because it doesn't meet my personal standard. I just thought that others that said that might feel the same way.
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Emotional resonance is VERY subjective. Yes, there are many things that are probably going to resonate with a lot of people but for instance, I find Tolkien's work deeply emotionally moving, but I know more than one person that finds it boring and uninvolving.
Sure what resonates with one person won't resonate with others. I know that after I became a parent suffering of children resonates so strongly with me that I cannot even sit through a horror movie if a child is involved (like Poltergist which was my favorite horror movie in my pre-children years). We all have our own individual tastes and life experiences.
But there are techniques that can create resonance with your target audience, relatable characters vs. flat stereotypes, showing a character being sad instead of telling us that he is sad (I am not saying that everything should be shown only that showing can draw a reader in to make the scene more emotional).
Not every story requires emotional resonance with the reader, but it is important for us to know how to do it when it does.
[This message has been edited by MAP (edited November 06, 2009).]
I think my biggest frustration is the amount of time required to keep stories out. I have only submitted a few to the big boys, so for the most part I am electronically submitting to the minor markets. This eats up alot of time; researching suitable publications for a particular story, sorting and reformatting for the annoyingly subtle variations in submission guidelines, and keeping track of so many emails, etc...
Secondary to these frustrations are inner conflicts which I am sure most of us share. There is the whole "Is my story good enough" complex. Then there is also is it really worth all the effort to keep these stories out, seemingly only to be rejected twelve times before possibly making it into print a year later for five bucks. I have seven short stories, poems, etc out in print. I have made very little money with them. I did make five thousand dollars writing the memoirs of my chef mentor, and I do have a pro-rate story due to publish in January.
I think the biggest motivating factor that has kept me writing was my Honorable mention which I received on my second attempt in entering WOTF. I guess it was the fact that I had only been writing for a few months when I received it was encouraging, especially reflecting back upon that story and realizing how far I have come in my craft since that story. What is sad is that I haven't entered anything in WOTF since. I have several great stories completed and I intend on entering this quarter, but as I mentioned before I got really busy with the restaurant opening and for the past six months I have not been very productive.
Hopefully, I can turn that around because I feel really good about the quality of material I have been producing lately.
Now, I intend on submitting to the top tier publications first. Pro-rate and then work my way down the ladder as I get rejected. Hopefully I will do well in WOTF this quarter or this year and it will help launch this endeavor.
As for the old material, I will either keep passing it around the semi pro and token markets until it finds a home or as I did in a few instances rewrite published or unpublished flash and shorts into better, more elaborate short stories, or novels. I have several such prospects underway, and fr the most part I feel good about them.
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Pick up the next issue of Asimov's or F&SF. Are there EVER any pieces in there where the bio says, "This is Bob's FIRST publication credit in his life?" No.
All of the Top tier publishers have been known to launch unpublished authors
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Asimov's will consider material submitted by any writer, previously published or not. We've bought some of our best stories from people who have never sold a story before.
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Analog will consider material submitted by any writer, and consider it solely on the basis of merit. We are definitely eager to find and develop new, capable writers.
I could dig through the bookshelf and finds some examples, but I am at work currently. I know there was one in Asimov's in one of the last three issues.