A professional being someone who is paid SFWA word rate (or better) for their fiction, in either print or electronic format.
It never occurs to me that anyone on a forum like this might just be writing for kicks. That they do not, in fact, have monetary desires, nor a desire to reach a wide commercial audience. That just never enters my mind, because it's been 18 years since I last wrote anything for explicitly hobby purposes. Once I got it into my head that I wanted professional publication, virtually all notions of hobbyism left my radar.
Obviously, it's not this way for everyone. Obviously, I need to revise my thinking when participating in a forum of this nature. I take it as a given that everybody on a forum like this is striving to be pro. Perhaps it's because OSC teaches his students using that same assumption? I just come here and think that this is the Hatrack forum, everyone here must be shooting for pro.
I must revise that thinking.
Still, a question remains: how many of you are aiming for pro, and how many of you are hobbyists?
Moreover: why are you aiming for pro -- your personal reasons -- or why are you a hobbyist?
As I've worked on my writing, participated in challenges, critiques, and even just made comments, I've found myself improving. I'm a different writer now than what I was when I started. I know what my strengths are, and I know what still needs work. I can see where I am on the road to being published.
However, I think being published is a goal you can't control. I have no say in if one of my stories is accepted. But I can control if I submit a story or if I leave the story in the files of my computer.
That's where I am at now. I am submitting. I am a submitting writer. I want people to read my stories, and dang it, I want to be paid.
So I guess it's not a hobby anymore.
I think it is just about the amount of time, energy, and myself I have put into my stories. I want all the work, all that times I've ignored my children, to pay off. The more I believe in myself, the more I want others to believe in me just to prove I'm not delusional.
~Sheena
[This message has been edited by shimiqua (edited July 30, 2010).]
Also, I agree, as always, with Sheena.
I think there are very very few of us who wouldn't like to be professional authors in the sense you mean, and/or to even make a living off of writing. However most do not see, as I often feel you do(note I say I feel, I don't know your mind, this is simply an impression I derive from your posts and statements), that as being mutually exclusive with other goals or with being published in other ways.
I write, first and foremost, because the stories and characters in my head want out. I should have started much earlier, but I didn't because I was afraid I wouldn't be able to or that I wouldn't be "good enough" at it (and yes, this is very much part of why the whole notion of "good enough" and attempts to objectify and apply value judgements to art make me want to pull my hair out.)
I'd say that the two second, and roughly equal reasons why I write are to bring people happiness and to perhaps teach/show/impart some of what I know and have learned/experienced to others. To say things and make statements.
Of course in order to achieve these two second and very important goals, people have to see my work. The more the better. And, if I get paid for it along the way thats even better both on a practical level and because it does, to me, represent the regard that someone else has for your work (and this last is equally true, to me, of a 5 dollar token payent or a 10c/word payment although I should say, I don't submit to non-paying markets because I figure, most times, if I was going to do that I might as well just put them on my blog. If I had definite knowledge of non-paying publications with extensive readership I might reconsider.)
As I've said before, I'm a very spiritual person--a bit of a mystic. Telling my stories is also part of how I try to figure things out--the nature and meaning of things.
So, while its not incorrect to say I'm "aiming for pro" that whole proccess is, for me, largely a means to an end, rather than an end in itself. While the reasons may be different I think that probably a significant portion of the Hatrack population feels much the same. Becoming a professional writer in the sense of having it as you sole "job" as in the income that supports your life entirely is something even more difficult to achieve than the professional definition you use so despite the fact that most of us would love for that to happen, we simply aim as high as we can and are happy with whatever comes along the way. To varying degrees.
So, I think rather than dividing everyone into "aspirant pros" and "hobbyists" perhaps you should ask the question I was going to: Why do you write and what are your goals? Because not everyone will fall neatly into this or that.
I would say I came here aspiring towards professional publication, but I have some very personal reasons for both why I write at all and why I aspire to be published. This is a complicated question for me to answer, since I have written in two genres but an published in neither.
My first completed piece in 10 years is a personal narrative about having two ethnic/cultural/national identities that are at odds with each other. My reasons for wanting to publish this are because I want people to get a window into that experience. So in this context, I aim for pro because I want the voices of people like me to be heard.
When it comes to science fiction I'm working on now, it is more about expressing my imagination. Ideally, I would be able to say something about the human condition and/or explore a "what if" that I think is particularly interesting. In this context, I aim for pro for the more typical reasons. Recognition, the desire to move peoples imaginations, and simply because aiming for pro provides a motivation to get better at it. I simply want to be the best writer I can be.
I'd be happy to get paid for it, and it is a dream for me to be able to have the full-time writer lifestyle...but for now, my job as a scientist is pretty flexible, will hopefully provide material for stories, and pays the bills.
Despite the fact that I aspire towards pro, I find great satisfaction from the process of putting ones imagination on paper. For me it feels like a crime to let an idea I feel is a good one dissolve into the ether. For that reason I keep several notebooks around the house and at work so I can jot an idea down before its lost.
I think I am really just echoing Merlion's words in my own way.
[This message has been edited by Osiris (edited July 30, 2010).]
Past the pile of fanfic and unpaid fic I did as a teen, writing purely for the fun of it wasn't enough for me anymore. I'd done that, enjoyed it a heck of a lot, but somewhere inside me this little voice said, "Any schmuck can write fanfic! You can be 'bigger' than that!"
Perhaps that little voice was simply my raw, unadulterated, unfiltered ego talking? I am not sure.
But my desire to be "among the professionals" is what's driven me all these years. And it is the reason why I never did vanity press, and have largely avoided doing additional fanfic or other 4-da-luv fic on blogs and what not. There is just one unpaid project I still work on -- the reboot of the SF audio serial where I got my first real public exposure -- otherwise I restrict my efforts to the "traditional pro" avenues: SFWA pro short fic markets, and New York novel publishing houses.
Later this year I will likely begin a web "serial" attached to my blog, as an experiment in marketing and profile-raising. I've been tempted to do something similar for years, but always avoided doing so because I didn't feel legit yet. ("Any schmuck can put his fiction on his web site!") Winning WOTF and selling to Analog feels like it's given me a certain baseline cred, and people like Joe Konrath certainly make the case that once your cred is at a certain level and displayed for the masses, doing non-traditional publishing is a potentially viable option.
Though the web serial is just an experiment. I still plan to send to the traditional short markets, to the New York novel editors, as well as a handful of select agents -- much as I dislike the agent-to-editor model.
Because at this point I just want to find out what works best. What brings in the most money. Now that I have baseline cred, the next level is to bring in enough cash to pay off my house and put an equivalent amount in the bank as savings. Might take me another 18 years. I am okay with that. It's my new goal, and doing hobby fic isn't part of the plan.
It's a funny thing about art. As you decide on a theme for a drawing, painting, design, little stories run threw your head. In one picture you try and convey a thousand words.
Lately I haven't been as happy with the artwork, but rather the story behind it. My art started to feel contained to me, and all the ideas started to feel like little Greeks; my brain being the Trojan horse that I couldn't stop them from popping out from all over the place and invading my Artist peace of mind. I started to want to tell the stories, not just Draw/paint them. So I'm following what my heart and mind are telling me, but as I have pointed out in other posts. Not without much grumbling of those around me who feel it's a huge waist of time for me.
There view is the same as a movie star trying to become a professional singer. They believe its a waist of there real talent.
Its hard to explain to some people that it's more than a job, but a passion, and you have to follow where it leads you. Even if its down a road you never imagined. A classic example is cross over. To draw a comic or animation of your 'own creation' you have to know how to write. To me learning to write professionally can only help what I already get paid for, but also I want to see where this is leading me.
I have know idea what the future is going to bring, but seeing something in print and getting paid for it would be great, because then I could turn around and say, "HA! Not so crazy now am I!"
W.
Last month, I spent several days in Washington DC, and one of the things I did was tour the art galleries on the National Mall. I was intrigued by the paintings in the modern art section of the National Gallery of Art, especially those by Mark Rothko, and I was even more intrigued by the paintings by Yves Klein and the video he made about his work that was on display in the Hirschhorn Gallery across the Mall.
The reason why I was so intrigued was because I could imagine someone looking at some of those paintings and thinking something similar to "any schmuck can put his fiction on his website," except in this case it would be more along the lines of "any schmuck can slop paint on a canvas" or "throw paint at a canvas" (I saw a Jackson Pollack painting and quite liked it, by the way).
And yet, after seeing the Yves Klein video, I realized that while any schmuck could possibly duplicate some of the results these artists achieved, it wasn't so much what they produced in their art as it was that they believed in it and that they were willing to sacrifice and to struggle for it. How many schmucks out there will go through what Pollack or Rothko or Klein or any of a dozen others went through for the sake of their work?
I submit that it isn't enough to throw paint at a canvas, and it isn't enough to put words on paper. Maybe the difference in a hobby writer and a "professional" (whether they are paid for their work or not) writer is how much they care and are willing to invest in their own efforts.
I've always written. I like to write (sometimes, I LOVE to write; sometimes, not so much). I happen to believe I have some kind of talent for it (not the case with many creative endeavours, for me). It therefore seems to make sense to try and get paid for it.
I'm reasonably proud of the fact that I've sold more than thirty stories. I am not anythign like so happy with the fact that very few of those sales have been at pro rates.
Ultimately, I'd like to be a successful novelist. I don't say full-time novelist, though that MIGHT be nice. But it'd sure be something to be able to walk into any decent bookstore and see my name on the shelves.
The stars must be right. Somebody send a helicopter over the Pacific to see if Great Cthulhu is rising.
The difficulty in this ambition is that it demands I become more than a competent writer, more than a duplicator of stories and philosophies I've read. I must be excellent. I must be passionate and deep and wide. I must achieve more than anyone, including me, believes I can.
We all seek a purpose in life. This is mine. It involves writing/creating and thus I write and I create. Will I reach my goal? No way of telling that, but I can at least do my best.
both.
Now for the long version...
I got into writing because I found I enjoyed it. Writing is fun for me, and if it ever became not fun, I would likely quit. My hope is that my chosen hobby could one day become my career, but I am not naive enough to be fooled that I'm destined to become independently wealthy with practice. That would be like banking on a feeling that I'm destined to win Powerball. True, a dozen or so publication credits is encouraging, but that doesn't mean I'm about to hit the big time.
I view writing the same way golfing enthusiast's do their favorite sport. Some are better than others. Many spend a lot of time and money at getting better (lessons, better equipment, buying how to books...). If you ever been on a golf course, you'll find the occasional person that take it too personal (swearing, throwing clubs), a few that take it too seriously, (sticklers for the rules, irrated by simple distractions), and the rare person that has a misguided belief in irrelvant material (special gloves, expensive balls, super club).
Every person that has golfed more than a round has hit the shot at least once. That special feeling of club on ball and watching it go where you hoped it would, and bounced the way you willed it. Hitting the shot will make a believer out of you. A belief that with enough practice and work, and you'll be in the final group on sunday of the PGA champonship one day.
I have seen the shot ruin golf for more than one person before. They spend less time with their families, spend more money on their game, and throw all their ambitions at become better in one thing, just because they think with a little more effort, they'll be a pro one day. Funning thing is, the better they got, the clearer the realization of how far they still had to go became.
One of my favorite people to golf with (note: I haven't golfed in a very long time) was a cocky kid named Randy. Randy golfed in bare feet and would walk 18 holes with a rolled up cigarette in his mouth (at least I think it was a cigarette) and a ratty bag slung over his shoulder. Most of the balls he used were discarded ones he'd find in the weeds or ones he fished out of the lake. He was loud and unforgiving. He had a knack of convincing others to play for skins (betting each hole). The damn kid was a natural at the game. Scratch golfer, from almost the moment he picked up clubs. His very presence on the course was a mockery to all that took the game seriously.
Randy used to say he'd hoped to be playing on the senior circuit one day (he was in his early twenties, mind you). He was the best golfer I ever played with but he knew he was nowhere near professional level. He golfed for one reason, he loved the game. Playing with him could be humbling and frustrating but it was always fun for me. I've played with the serious guy that demanded complete silence when he puts. I'll take the guy shouting and waving the beer cart over instead.
I think my writing is on par with the guy that golfs under par at the local muncipal course, and tries the private country club where they throw a major tournament once a year. Private country club courses are a lot harder, and the people that play them a lot better. I could apply myself and spend all my time at getting better. I might get good enough to get on a tour (long shot), but the effort may make fall out of love with my favorite hobby. That price may be too high for me.
I will keep submitting to professional publications. The way I see it, either you got it, or you don't. When (or if) I finally have it, the editors will let me know. One way or the other, I intend to keep having fun while I write. Hopefully I'll get good enough to get a major award one day. You can be sure that I'll be accepting it in bare feet and with a rolled up cigarette in my mouth when I do.
quote:
Kathleen we find ourselves semi-disturbingly in agreement again.
Well, Merlion-Emrys, just blame it on the heat. Or maybe Mercury is in retrograde, or something.
Something's going to stick sooner or later.
This morning, I was out doing the week's grocery shopping. As I do every week, I passed the books and muttered to myself, "Someday."
I might distinguish, though, between published and pro. To me, pro means doing it for a living. Published means getting paid for it. Becoming a pro would be a dream, perhaps. Becoming published may just mean keeping at it for long enough. I can be very stubborn if I have to be.
The difference from before is the willingness to go ahead and put my stories out there to be rejected. I don't think I could have done that before I joined this forum.
So there are all types of rejection, and having a story rejected isn't necessarily the worst kind. In fact, the nice thing about story rejection is you can always submit another story to them or submit that story elsewhere. When an unemployed person gets rejected, the impact is more immediate. Just roll with the punches and keep your chin up.
To me writing is another shot at something like that, being a professional artist. To my knowledge you can still be a good person and be a successful author. I would not have spent so much time and effort on a thing I meant to keep to myself.
Why is it important? Not for accolades or fame, but for the dang fun of it... and, ahem... the MONEY! Well also for the sense of having learned how to be really good at something I had previously known nothing about. I have mastered some things in the past and I desire to master this art form. This forum has opened my eyes and humbled me to the ground, and after almost ten years on the task of writing I realized I was at the perfect starting point... ground zero. I know nothing! How refreshing. Everything is up, anything is possible, and MANY things are probable. Yep!
I went from being on top of the world, to trying to find my next meal. Every one kept telling me I had lots of talent, that I was smart, that I had a lot to contribute. How could that be true when everything I did turned out bad? I was angry, I hated life, more so, I hated myself. I started slipping into a deep depression.
It was along this time I met my wife, via an internet chatroom. She seemed to not care that I had nothing. She seemed genuinly interested in me, my personality. That was the turning point in which I started to, for lack of better words, 'get a grip' on my life. It has been no picnic though.
This is about the time when the economy collapsed. (I will remain in the belief that this has partly been on perpose for nefarious reasons including money and power grabs. I still remember many people warning of the collapse before it happened.) Because of this I have gained a great distain and distrust for most, if not all, politicians. I see through most of their lies, but can do very little about it, till the lies show thenselves. But I digress...
I have loved stories for as long as I can remember. I love fantasy and science fiction for the sence of wonder they usually carry. I see the art and the 'stories' surrounding each one of us; our hopes, our stuggles,our desire to build, to grow, and to learn. My mother told me when I was very young that I needed to write my stories down, but till now I hated the act of writing. Even now I struggle with this old hatred from time to time.
The reason I write has many facets. I do want to acheive a proffessional level and make some money from it, because I never want to be in the position I went through earlier in my life again. I never want my family to go through anything like it either. I want to leave a legacy behind when I leave this life. I want to be respected. Most important I want to respect myself.
So...I write. I pour myself into my work as if it's the last thing I have. I won't give up. No matter that some people think I am wasting my time. I am an artist, I feel deeply, I must share.
Although I was not a model student as a child, I received quite a bit of praise and encouragement whenever I wrote or drew something. I first started writing fiction when I was twelve as a means of escaping an unpleasant reality. I found that I shared my birthday with my favorite author at the time, and suddenly dreams of becoming a famous writer arose within me.
My interests and desires changed over time, but I continued to receive praise for my writing in high school and later in college. An argument with my advisor during my junior year led to me dropping out of my creative writing major and changing to sociology, which I was enjoying more at the time.
About fifteen years passed, and I decided to start writing again. I have always loved science fiction, my favorite genre in film and stories, so I thought I would write a science fiction novel. I began reading various stories and novels, which introduced me to OSC and eventually brought me here.
My original goal in becoming published was ultimately to become rich. Ironically, I have done much better with my current career than I ever imagined I could. I'm not rich, but I'm doing well enough. Now my goal in writing is recognition, and maybe one day to become great.
I submitted one story to two of the more prominent magazines, and received rejections from both. Then I decided to work on refining my skills before making further submissions. I had planned on submitting something to WOTF over the last couple of quarters, but various circumstances have delayed my doing this. I hope to submit a story this quarter.
At this point, I wouldn't care if I ever made a dime writing, but my greatest thrill would be to someday see my name in print on the cover of a magazine or book.
I want to be published, I want people to read my stories, but mostly I want to write.
I love writing, and I am motivated to put in the time to get every scene perfect and do all the necessary research to make the worlds I create as realistic as possible even if my stories never get published. I want to write my stories to the best of my ability and see what happens.
I have never submitted anything, but I haven't written anything yet that I felt was ready to submit. I know I am still in the learning process, and I have a lot to learn. But I work hard, and I know at some point I will at least meet my personal standards, and then I will submit my stories to agents and publishers.
I don't know if this makes me a hobbyist or what.
I would not trade that experience for pro publication.
We've certainly had a lot of people here in these forums (forae? fora?) from time to time who don't view writing as something you do to get published. (Whatever happened to Rommel Fenrir Wolf, or however he spelled what he called himself?)
quote:
(Whatever happened to Rommel Fenrir Wolf, or however he spelled what he called himself?)
He is busy conquering the world in some online game thing. I know because I get constant updates on my blackberry via facebook. I haven't been able to figure out how block those messages, although I am quite aware how important they are.
There came a point, though, when I decided that as much fun as I was having writing fan fiction, I needed a new challenge.
Strangely enough, the catalyst for the change was an article in Entertainment Weekly about Stephenie Meyer. To this day, I have not read any of her novels, but her story inspired me: early 30s, young children, never published until she wrote "Twilight." And I thought: That sounds like me! If she can do it, so can I. Silly, sure. But it was the kick in the pants that got me on the road that I hope will someday lead to big sales.
So, to answer the main question: Writing started off as a hobby for me, but now I have aspirations of going pro.
Also a big ol'ditto on the last paragraph. I won't give up either. I believe it is vital to love what you do if you want to have a contented, meaningful life. I did my HEAVY stint in the industrial/high-tech sector and although I loved certain aspects, the whole tamale drove me into the ground and took way more from me than it gave. I came out of it with one guitar and two truly awesome kids... and... well that is it. 30+ years of HEAVY grind for nothing (with the obvious exception).
I love to be creative, imaginative, outspoken, active, alive. I have seen people achieve this as writers so I know it can be done and done well.
If I am able to get the reaction from others that OSCard got from me with the book, 'Sarah' then I will be a fully contented man, able to LIVE in the real sense of the word. Money or not.
Robert, I think I understand and relate to you as a whole. The experience is the real thing... money can get cool stuff delivered to your door or to your table. I've had a few small piles of it laying around at one time or another and it always seems to turn to dust a sift through the cracks. The experiences are all I have from all those years and low and behold I am a rich man for it. Keep your feet where they are and time will tell the story.
babooher - ditto! Well said.
Which is why I'm driving nine hours down to Virginia tomorrow to take OSC's class, only to drive nine hours back on Wednesday.
I took no such trip for my film hobby.
Plus, my wife is already pro, so the only thing holding us back, chaining us in one place, is me.
Yesterday I had two different conversations with two different people about how they toured the US with their folks when they were younger. One, my coworker, said her folks picked her up in their mobile home on the last day of school and off they went for the first few weeks of summer.
How amazing would it be to take like a month a year and travel and still be able to work? Both people I talked to said it was awesome. I have a feeling my son, when he's old enough to talk, would agree. Especially if places like Sesame Place or Disney were on our journey.
Axe
I say I want to go pro, and I have a firm belief that I will, but at the moment I'm not really acting like it. I'm a little stuck in neutral. I have three novels-in-progress where the only thing preventing me from finishing them is I'm not doing the work. I have them all figured out wire to wire. I haven't submitted anything in a long time. (Although I did have one request to submit something so I've whipped up a few fun-shots for them. And I've made myself promise to send to those Blizzard, and Monsters and Mormons contests. Just to keep myself part of the world.)
Sure I've been pushing to finish school, while working, so I don't have a huge margin of time to do the work. But you do make time for what you love, and what you need to do. I mean I make it into Restaurant City every day. (Snapper there is a hide feature, but it's hidden up in the corner of the post, I don't know how you would find it with your phone though.)
Whatever the goal though I'd say we are all here to improve ourselves, and our writing, the people who come here for us to confirm their own greatness to themselves don't tend to last too long.
Filthy rich, really. That's my goal. I want to get so famous that we have to move because my fans have discovered where we live and are camping on our front lawn.
<snicker>
I'm only partly joking. I want to have writing be how I make my income, and I want a good income that will pay for my children's private school tuition, vacations, and subsidize my somewhat expensive electronics habit. Oh, and really cute shoes. I want to be able to do all that during the 9-3 hrs the kids are in school, so I can be here and available to them the rest of the time.
I've done (and am about to do) some consulting work that pays well/better than writing can for me at this stage, but that work just bleeds into my time w/my family in ways writing doesn't (I can jot notes down on stickies for writing, or take half an hour to get an idea down. My kids help me brainstorm sometimes. Clients have this aggravating habit of wanting you to attend status meetings at 4 PM on Wednesdays and other pesky details.)
I honestly have no qualms about being "good enough" to be a professional writer or that sort of thing. I am good enough. Most (all? I have no way of gauging) of us on this forum are.
I've realized there are writers whose stories just sing to me, and writers who I've politely read and put back on the shelf with a mental note to avoid in the future. The writers whose stories sing to me don't always match up with what others think (though some of the more popular ones do.)
Interpretation of writing "skill" and ability is, to me, intensely subjective. Outside the basics of grammar, language use, punctuation, general things around character development, use of description, story structure, pacing, plotting (much of which is teachable, in my opinion.) To be a writer you need to have some facility with these concepts, but it's not rocket science, and it's best learned through practice. What kinds of things can you get better at just by DOING them? Riding a bike, sure, but just DOING computer programming without someone instructing you on what works/doesn't or some level of external validation of whether you're "doing it right" is really hard, as is quantum physics, medicine, scuba diving, and loads of other things. Writing you can get better at just by writing more. Sure, get someone else to read your work from time to time and tell you if they got bored, but mostly just write.
At this point the biggest hurdle to me and my expected landslide of riches is the just write part, -- but see aforementioned kids part and understand the summer is about them, not me. I get to be a writer again on August 25.
Meanwhile, I'm considering nonfiction as my avenue to being pro in writing for the short term (while I work on a few novels and start trying to sell them.)
Snapper, I very much enjoyed your golfing analogy.
One thing I've noticed about almost all of us who get the "pro" idea into our heads, is that once you've spent a little time focused on being "pro" you get discouraged by how much work it will take, and how many random factors there are. It's a huge gap between selling your first story, and selling enough regularly to quit your job. Odds are long that any of us will go from break-in sale to quit-job selling.
But if you're like me, there is a bit of fun in the "gamble" this presents. Someone brought up Stephanie Meyer. Excellent example of someone who rolled the dice -- on her first book, from what I understand -- and it paid off huge. Now, we can argue that she was a lightning strike. A freak coincidence of market appeal and story. But my thought is that Stephanie's mammoth success could never have happened had she told herself, "Naw, I won't write those dreams into a book, it would be silly, nobody will buy it or read it!"
Which to me means that nobody knows what will and will not go big. If you never pull the lever on the big slot machine -- never spin the big wheel on Price is Right -- you will never have a chance at the big money.
And I'm not even after big money, really. I meant it when I said my new life goal -- having attained break in, which is a bit like reaching low earth orbit -- is to pay off my house and put the equivalent in the bank. Sorta like going from LEO to landing on the moon! But my house is a modest house. My wife and I live in a modest neighborhood. I wouldn't have to be a mega-seller to reach my "moon," I just need to keep launching the rockets until I get there.
And if I never get there? Well, it's a possibility I can live with because I know I'll never stop trying. The goal is a target to shoot for, which provides motivation during all those moments when the voice of reason -- also known as the nay-saying voice of ultimate writing doom -- tells me I shouldn't spend my time on such a pie-in-the-sky endeavour.
Thing is, all the current working pros and bestsellers and megasellers, all started out right where we are now. They kept rolling the dice -- spinning the wheel, pulling the big arm -- until they became who they are. I want to be one of those people who keeps pulling the big arm over and over, always wondering if the slots will come up big for me.
quote:
I honestly have no qualms about being "good enough" to be a professional writer or that sort of thing. I am good enough. Most (all? I have no way of gauging) of us on this forum are.
This made me happier to see than anything I've seen on here in Elbesem only knows how long. I agree intensely...or more specifically since "good enough" is subjective, we're all good enough to someone...its just a matter of findng those people.
quote:
Interpretation of writing "skill" and ability is, to me, intensely subjective. Outside the basics of grammar, language use, punctuation, general things around character development, use of description, story structure, pacing, plotting (much of which is teachable, in my opinion.) To be a writer you need to have some facility with these concepts, but it's not rocket science, and it's best learned through practice. What kinds of things can you get better at just by DOING them? Riding a bike, sure, but just DOING computer programming without someone instructing you on what works/doesn't or some level of external validation of whether you're "doing it right" is really hard, as is quantum physics, medicine, scuba diving, and loads of other things. Writing you can get better at just by writing more. Sure, get someone else to read your work from time to time and tell you if they got bored, but mostly just write.
Here, here! And, I would add, write what you want to write. The happier you are with what your writing the "better" its likely to be.
But....
I ain't there yet. Not just on the writing but on the commitment. When I first joined Hatrack, I was running a defunked business which allowed me 20 hrs. during the week to write plus weekends to nearly 40 hours, so I could write everyday, 2 novels the year before joining Hatrack.
I joined Hatrack to learn/polish my writing skills and in that 2 years, I took on a new job, which first year took 60 hrs a week, but now is down to 48 but leaves me mentally fried. Throw in redoing the entire kitchen, ripping up the floor, and this year alone, having 1 cat diagnosed with cancer(still living, healthy after 5 months) another cat with diabetes, and my dog, with some strange anti-eating disease the vet can't figure out(Hopefully turned the corner, although he still has a clear throw-up I always step in on my new hardwood floors which send me sliding on my...well you get the picture.) Throw in a 4 and 6 year old girls, In short, I havent given up on writing pro, just not spending the time required to fast track my way there.
In the meantime, I hope to be patient and learn what I feel I need to reach a "pro level." This includes writing consistently, which I still fight over. I am very close to wrapping up the outline for my latest work so I may finally be able test my ability to write every day. I know I can write up to 5,000 words a day on a first draft from an outline when I can dedicate a day to writing.
Part of my goals for the next few years is to determine what form of writer I am. Am I an outliner or a discovery writer? I feel that I am an outliner but how much of one? How detail do my outlines need to be before I can start writing? I need to find a balance that works for me.
And, as I said, I have plenty of time to accomplish this. I just need to learn the patience.
--William
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Since I am only 42--today, in fact; happy birthday, me--I have plenty of time to accomplish this.
Happy Birthday!!!
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My primary goal at the moment is to get my writing polished enough so that when I "retire" I am making enough money from writing that I can survive without a day job. Since I am only 42--today, in fact; happy birthday, me--I have plenty of time to accomplish this. Now, if I achieve this goal before "retirement age" I will be happy with that.
Happy Birthday, William. I'm in much the same situation, because I suffer from a conflict of interest of sorts: I have a mortgage and dependents, balanced by a day job which pays rather well. However, I don't enjoy it, and I hate commuting. So I keep writing when I can (which the day job, family and resulting fatigue makes it easy to shirk) on the principle I'll have a little extra income when I choose (or have) to retire from the grind.
BenM, I also have a mortgage and family so I understand. Thankfully I have a job that I like and it pays well enough to make pay the bills.
I remember, however, the days when I worked for computer call centers and absolutely hated those jobs. During those days I wrote "to have written" because getting published would have been my escape from the daily drudgery. However, that never happened.
This time I want to write for the joy of writing. Sure, I want to get published, but I hope to be more patient and get it "right" this time.
Right now I own my house outright, my car outright, and all I owe in debt is what I charged on my credit cards in any particular month. (Everything else is an expense.)
I want to get as much as I can for my work. I want recognition of my ability (if I ever attain it.) I want to make people think. I'd like to be published, but if that was all I wanted I'm sure I could pay someone to do it.
But I never took the leap into doing it _seriously_ until last year. I'd been a busy guy for the past couple decades. Then suddenly I found myself simultaneous jobless and recovering from my second kidney transplant (as recipient). To me that situation spelled nothing but opportunity: I had no excuse not to write and lots of time to do it.
So I started: one good short story that I'm marketing to the SF mags right now; a couple shorts that need more work; and most of a novel. So far. It's a tiny start but it's a start.
No acceptances yet, so not professional by any definition. I have no illusions about being professional in the sense of making a living as a fiction writer. I'm confident that I will be able to sell my fiction, though, reaching that level of professionalism. I have absolutely zero fear of rejection, for one. The kind of rejection I worry about is from my own organs; editors don't scare me at all in comparison I have confidence in my skills, too. So it's really "just" a matter of finding the right venues and audiences for my stories.
What I struggle with a bit, and keep trying to wrap my brain around, is that my thinking is still more traditional in terms of publication venues. I think of the Big Three mags, the too-small circle of not-so-big mags, and the traditional sci-fi book imprints. So that's where I've been concentrating, but I know that really it's just as valid nowadays to look at, heck, video games, YouTube, e-books from nontraditional publishers. I still am looking for that imprimatur, though.
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The kind of rejection I worry about is from my own organs; editors don't scare me at all in comparison. I have confidence in my skills, too. So it's really "just" a matter of finding the right venues and audiences for my stories.
I couldn't agree more. Rejection (by editors, not organs) is like getting an immunization. Sure, the needle stings a little, but in the end you come out stronger. So just like when I get shots, I grimace a little, say thank you for your time, and move on.
Suppose I did sell something tomorrow. (I haven't got anything out at market, but that's not the point here.) I think I'd feel a little like the genie released from the bottle after two thousand years---he's happy to be out but he'd much rather have been released in the first thousand years.
There are aspects of "being a pro" that I don't think I'd go along with if I did become a literary success. For instance, there's been mention of a Writers of the Future awards banquet---I don't think I could bring myself to go to any awards banquet, be it them or the SFWA or somebody else.
I don't see that "this is what you do if you become a pro" is necessarily a good reason to do any of it. Should that time come---I'm not holding my breath waiting for it---I will decide what to do in a way that suits me best.
(Remember that the genie in the bottle eventually swore to kill whoever opened the bottle and let him out. I understand his feelings completely.)
Every pro I consider to be an example and or a mentor, preaches this doctrine:
Professionalism -- both a state of mind, and an action.
Professional writers adopt a "workplace" mentality about their fiction. They set structured hours for themselves, create designated spaces or even entire offices where they 'work' every day, or every week, with regularity. They work when they don't feel inspired, don't feel like it, and aren't necessarily in the mood. And they send that work out to publishers with regularity.
Thus many "new" writers who plop onto the pages of a magazine or who come out with a debut novel, have actually been 'professional' about their writing for at least a few years: cranking out the prose, developing a regimen, and getting the words onto the page, their muse be damned.
(Thank you, Steve Martin)
Instead I write as the mood strikes me, a little at a time.
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Professional writers adopt a "workplace" mentality about their fiction. They set structured hours for themselves, create designated spaces or even entire offices where they 'work' every day, or every week, with regularity. They work when they don't feel inspired, don't feel like it, and aren't necessarily in the mood. And they send that work out to publishers with regularity.
I'm not entirely sure that all "professional" writers take quite this approach. I think I've heard of at least some that actually take only rather limited periods of time for structured writing.
Its been my experience that trying to force a story when it isn't coming usually doesn't lead to much of anything. Now, there have been times when the urge to lay down words isn't as strong as it sometimes is and yet if I sit down and get to it, it begins to flow. I think its a balance and one that is different for each of us.
Also, its important to remember that when it comes to what I consider professional writers...those who make their living off of it...that fact makes it possible for them to devote most of their time to writing. On the other hand, most of us work jobs to pay our bills that take up most of our time...and some like me have radically variable work schedules that make set writing schedules difficult or impossible to achieve.
However, I consider myself a serious writer and I do devote a good deal...probably the majority of my non-working time...to it. There is usually a stretch between stores or projects where I'm not doing a whole lot...but it isn't a long stretch.
I agree unconditionally, though, about sending stuff out. If you have any desire for publication of any kind and regardless of your other goals, if publication is one of them you need to be submitting. Letting stories moulder on your hardrive because you're scared they aren't "good enough" isn't going to get you anywhere. Write, and submit. Thats really all that matters, in my view.
I agree - same thing has always been one of my problems.
Unfortunately if you want to be a productive, successful, professional writer, it's a problem you will probably have to overcome. There are days when anyone in a job doesn't feel "inspired", but they have to do the job anyway. Learning to work in such a way that you can write through the "uninspired" spells makes a big difference to a writer.
Elizabeth Bear commonly stresses an important lesson: it's OK for your first draft to suck. That's what rewrites are for. But you can't rewrite - you can't polish the story into something wonderful - if you don't have a first draft to work with.
I try to get a story more or less "right" the first time. And in terms of productivity, if you write a draft and it takes a little longer, but requires only minimal polish and revision, I think it amounts to much the same thing as slapping on a first draft and basically having to do it all over again.
I'm a big believer, with all things, that sometimes rather than trying to bull through something, stepping back for a day or two may actually do more good and get more done, in the background, overall.
Also again time and other concerns are an issue. I'd be willing to bet those "uninspired" periods become less frequent when you dont have to deal with a stressful crap job day in and day out.
One certainly does need to get in the habit of writing as much as one can as often as one can. But I don't think beating onself up for missing a day or just typing random words that you're going to have to re-do later anyway really accomplishes much.
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Its been my experience that trying to force a story when it isn't coming usually doesn't lead to much of anything.
Agreed. In fact, my belief is something along the lines of: "When a fisherman can't go to the sea, he mends his nets." In my case, I work on my blog site or scout out new markets or read someone else's work...anything that will enhance the entirety of my writing profession.
S!
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