Hatrack River Writers Workshop: Forecastig Rain

This is topic Forecastig Rain - SF in forum Fragments and Feedback for Short Works at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

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Posted by Spaceman (Member # 9240) on :

It's been a while since I posted anything here. I'm working on a second draft of a story and am struggling with the new opening. I wanted to see if the hook has a good enough barb.

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One of the few privately owned computers in the world was owned by Bart Toynbee, a man who made his money in oil. He had spent the first two years after his retirement playing with the computer, but never could get it to do much. After losing interest, he began selling time to scientists, and one of his most frequent customers was an atmospheric physicist named Harry Westmore. Toynbee had no idea what Westmore was trying to do, but the scientist went through more punch cards in a single hour than most customers used in a year.

Toynbee didn't mind the punch card use, after all, Westmore payed for them. He just wondered what the man was doing. On the day before Westmore's contract expired, he...

Posted by Homeworld (Member # 3136) on :

Is the hook that Westmore is conducting an unusually heavy amount of punch card use?

It doesn't grab me yet. This may be because the title kind of gives away the hook before I've read a word.

For some reason, it feels vaguely familiar. I might be thinking of a published short story, maybe by Vernor Vinge, about a scientist who was burning phenomenal computing time to create a CGI-based movie of "Lord of the Rings" (written well before computers were used for such things).

[This message has been edited by Homeworld (edited April 21, 2006).]

Posted by Rahl22 (Member # 1411) on :

Not a huge hook, but the prose is clear enough that I'd keep reading.

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

Hmm...lacks a setting. Yeah, I know that you're about to get to that, but...as it is, this is a turn-off.

Posted by Ray (Member # 2415) on :

You started to lose me with the punch card use. Like Rahl, I'd keep reading a little while longer, but I'm wondering why I should care that Westmore is spending more time on the computer than most others. He could be just an average workaholic for all I know.

Now, what does interest me is why there aren't many privately owned computers in the world. Did the economy collapse and now only the wealthy are able to afford one? And why limit himself to just scientists? If he was limiting his customers, I'd think that Bart would make sure that he knew what Westmore was doing prior to signing a contract. On the other hand, if Bart's computer was open to whoever could pay, no questions asked, then I'm all right with Westmore's privacy.

Posted by wyrd1 (Member # 3366) on :

Very clear sentences, I don't see any conflict here but I do see the mystery. Why is Westmore using punch cards instead of object-orientated programming in c# ? Just kidding. As it stands I would read on a page or two to see if things got interesting.

Posted by Dude (Member # 1957) on :

I remember punch cards. I'm guessing this is based in a time before the PC. You may lose some younger readers with references to punch cards and few privately owned computers. Also, from what I remember of my high school computer class, punch card readers were used, but you could still program at a terminal. I would expect if only one person at at time was using the computer, it would make more since to use the terminal. I like the story so far, but you need a sharper barb on that hook.

Posted by Spaceman (Member # 9240) on :

Dude, you are correct about the setting. The story starts in 1958.

Posted by Silver3 (Member # 2174) on :

I'm intrigued, but it did take me some time to understand that this was before the computers appeared everywhere (hence the punch cards). I'm a bit young for that, I guess.

But I think a sharper bard wouldn't hurt. You've raised my curiosity, but you haven't really hooked me yet. Sure, a guy is going through lots of punchcards. So what? As somebody else said, he could just be a workaholic.

Posted by Shendülféa (Member # 2964) on :

I agree about the punch cards. Despite having a minor in computer science, I didn't know what they were until I read some of the replies. But then again, I haven't taken too many computer science courses yet, so maybe I will be learning about them in some of the classes that I'll be taking in the next couple of years.

Anyway, I'm wondering if there's a way to make it clearer as to what they are so that you don't lose some of the younger readers.

Posted by sholar (Member # 3280) on :

I'm not hooked, but I did get the punchcard reference. Some of the older profs would tell stories about the old days.

I think my problem was that it felt a bit info dumpy to me at times.

Posted by Calligrapher (Member # 2985) on :

The internal logic has me confused. Why would the MC have one of the few computers in the world, yet he's just learning to use it and gives up in frustration? I get the impression he has a lot of oil money, but why not spend it on sports cars or mountain climbing rather than a computer he can't use? I'd like to know why he chose the computer as a hobby when he probably could have had anything else.

Posted by Spaceman (Member # 9240) on :

Maybe I need to have Toynbee just walk into this computer room and see the punch cards all over the place. With the new Buddy Holly song on the radio.

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

I remember punch cards. They were to store long programs so you didn't have to type them in at run-time (though originally they were the only input method), and they were a real labor saver back before other forms of storage were invented. Okay, just to clarify, I've seen them and know how they were used, I've never actually used them myself.

They were invented right after the Civil War, by the way, so we're talking about something that predates computers by a long time. Anyway, I had no trouble getting your rough date from the text, though apparently that's going to be difficult for a few people. If you want to give an exact date, just give an exact date.

I would go farther than that, and say that you should open with an actual setting, not just a date. Right now, you only have a vaguely identifiable time period and a couple of names, one wealthy guy and one scientist. It's boring. You could snap it out as a joke opening, "a scientist, a oil-millionaire, and one of the early computers walked into a..." oh, that's right, there's nowhere for them to walk into, is there?

Posted by Spaceman (Member # 9240) on :

Computers of that era didn't walk anywhere. And you were right in your first post, the setting information comes at about line 15.

Posted by Elan (Member # 2442) on :

I had issues with the opening sentence... my nit is that the word "owned" jumped out at me as repetitive. While I got the reference to punch-cards... being older than dirt, and all... it comes up after you talk about only a few privately owned computers in the world. Since that initial sentence flies against logic in our real world, it pulls the reader out of the story before they even get to the punch card reference.

I suggest you establish your time frame before delving into the material wealth of Mr. Toynbee. The Buddy Holly reference might also be a little vague for younger readers.

I'd look for a different avenue to date the story. A newscast from 1958 might mention Elvis Presley being inducted into the army, the US following the Soviets into the space race with the launch of the satellite Explorer 1, Arnold Palmer winning his first Masters golf tournament... other hits from 1958 include "Great Balls of Fire," by Jerry Lee Lewis, "Flying Purple People Eater" by Sheb Wolley, and "Do the Bop," by Danny & the Juniors. While younger readers may not recognize the artists, they possibly would recognize the songs.

Another way to gradually ease into the time frame is to talk about the character's reaction upon seeing the computer... I remember MY awe in 1974 when I saw a computer that took up one entire wall in the computer lab at college... PCs were still several years away. The very SIZE of a computer gave most people a real thrill... there was a level of awe at being in their presence. Even back then, I managed to realize this was a device capable of changing the world.

Hope that helps!

Posted by Woodie (Member # 3346) on :

I agree with sholar that it felt a bit info intensive. To me you were telling instead of showing. When I first read it I figured the setting was either in the past or future (although I was thinking in the 1970s, which probably shows how old I am. The seventies were FOREVER ago!)

Posted by Spaceman (Member # 9240) on :

thanks, folks.

Posted by umlando (Member # 3338) on :

I want to read more as it is, but that's partly because I rad "privately-owned" as "personal," and I didn't get the wall-sized computer image until reading the replies. If you mean 1958, then we need first satellites in orbit, or else some fragment of the readership (me and a few other loonies, at minimum) will be reading alternate history into it - i.e. tech development way behind, tech repressed by oppressive regime, tech slowed by different economic history.

I also didn't get hooked by the character's indifference. Maybe his interest would be piqued a little by Westmore's desperation to get more time, even working through the middle of the night. Maybe Westmore is deliberately cagey about what he's working on? Is Toynbee about to become interested in this?

I do like the basic of the set-up, though. It's pretty clear something interesting is about to happen. .

Posted by wbriggs (Member # 2267) on :

The clarity of the prose would keep me reading, so far.

I'm an expert in CS, and my biggest problem here was figuring out what world I was in. It can't be mid-1900's Earth, because when there *were* just a few computers on the planet, they were owned by huge corporations or the government, and there were definitely uses for them. It can't be today or future (without explanation), because it seems unlikely that the number of computers will be small again, and we don't use punch cards. Now, I *like* the idea of you constructing a world that has these bizarre characteristics, but I want to know that we *are* in an alternate world, and I want some reason for believing that a rich eccentric has one of these vast resources and does nothing much with it.

Spending 2 years playing with the computer, but not getting it to do much: hard to believe. Even an old computer could do something as soon as you loaded a program.

Going through more punch cards in an hour than most use in a year: when punch cards were used, they took a while to load. You'd have a hard upper limit on how many punch cards the machine could read in an hour, and I can't believe it would exceed someone else's year-long use. If you end up with really huge stacks, we have a new problem: if there's something wrong on even one of the cards (at least the cards constituting a computer program), the computer will stop reading, tell you something's wrong, and you have to fix it and start over -- rendering huge stacks impractical. But then these could be *data* cards, not program.

Posted by Elan (Member # 2442) on :

All this discussion is making me remember the story of how the term "bug" came to be used to mean "something causing a computer malfunction." Stories of early computer development are always fun. But I agree, be more strong with defining for us up front if this is alternative world, or based on our real world. It gets confusing fast if you don't.

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

I'll also point out that even back when there were only a few privately owned computers, two years was a very long time to essentially let it obsolesce. It wouldn't have been a top of the line computer to begin with, if he were just buying it for personal fancy. However, I can see a wealthy eccentric buying one and selling time to cranks who weren't able to get time on real computers.

But we need a setting up front, one that convinces us.

Posted by Spaceman (Member # 9240) on :

Guys, while the computer is necessary to the story, it is not the point of the story. The effect of Westmore's project is.

quote:
It can't be today or future

I gave the year, 1958.

quote:
It can't be mid-1900's Earth, because when there *were* just a few computers on the planet, they were owned by huge corporations or the government

A man of Toynbee's means is a corporation.

By the way, I changed the hour thing a couple of days ago.

Posted by Spaceman (Member # 9240) on :

Survivor, your last post just provided the trigger that let me find my opening. I was starting the story too late.

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

Go to work on it, then.

Posted by wbriggs (Member # 2267) on :

Spaceman, if you don't want my observations, I'll happily withdraw them. Good luck with your story.

Posted by Spaceman (Member # 9240) on :

Response to wbriggs by email.

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

wbriggs, don't make observations if you would happily withdraw them.

Looking over what you said, I don't know what you're talking about withdrawing anyway. Mainly I think you're accusing Spaceman of being unwilling to accept feedback, which is a bit of a cheap shot even when it's fair. Now, I don't object to cheap shots when they're deserved, but Spaceman hasn't started a diatribe about how we're all hating on him and don't appreciate his genius etc. etc. here.

I'm not saying that you should never point out cases when someone is being obstinate about accepting any sort of criticism...but you need to be a bit balanced. I find it helpful to understand what the author is trying to do with a scene when I critique it, and sometimes the only way I can know that is for the author to simply tell me. I think that authors need to be able to ask questions about the critiques they recieve as well, otherwise they may not be able to understand them fully.

I know, after a while on the boards everyone starts to get sensitized to certain "n00b" errors that constantly require correction. Bristling with defensiveness over any suggestion that the text (or author) isn't already perfect is one of those errors. Engaging in reasoned and on topic discussion of the purpose of the text and any areas where further critique is redundant is not.

I know it's a fine line in many cases. I won't forbid you from posting the Arguing with Critiques link or anything like that. But don't look for opportunities to pick a fight over this stuff.

Posted by tchernabyelo (Member # 2651) on :

I first worked with computers in the late 1970s, and I remember punch cards well. I remember manual card punches - when I went to university and discovered automated card pucnh machines, which even printed the code at the top of the card as well as punching the holes, I thought I was in heaven. I had absolutely no problem with any of the introductory details and realised the setting had to be late 50s or very early 60s. But it's clear that many people younger than me don't have a clue (which is not entirely surprising - most people at college today have, after all, grown up in a world where there have always been home computers and CDs).

I did find the narrative style for the opening rather distant and dry, however. It was setting a scene, it wasn't quite pure infodump, but it was just establishing the basis for the story, not telling the story itself. As a result, I wasn't hooked.

Posted by Spaceman (Member # 9240) on :

My terse answers read a bit snippy, so it's as much my fault. Please don't ignite a flame war.

Regardless, I have redrafted the first 600 words and will post the revised first 13 after I move the file from my laptop.

Posted by wbriggs (Member # 2267) on :

As you know, Survivor, I have not picked a fight; I withdrew from one. (As has Spaceman.) I withdraw from this new one, too.

[This message has been edited by wbriggs (edited April 25, 2006).]

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

Well, all's well then.

I'm serious about your comments not needing retraction, by the way. And I'm glad if you and Spaceman were able to talk them over some more. I'm too lazy, myself

Oddly, I think I made my comment because there wasn't going to be a fight. That has it's own logic, though. Or so all us madmen say, when we do these things.