Hatrack River Writers Workshop: my first frag!

This is topic my first frag! in forum Fragments and Feedback for Short Works at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

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Posted by englshmjr18 (Member # 3906) on :

hi everyone. my sf/ fantasy novel actually starts, alas, three times. this is one of them, 13 lines. please tell me what you think, or how i could make it better or if you'd read on, of if you'd like the whole 100,000 words of World on the Edge of Time:

The fathe entered the speaking hall with the guardians at his side and all the councils of ariel attending. Only he and the istrins knew the reason for his coming speech, and no one liked it. Istrins dreaded its implications, and he hated its complexity. Besides, he could not help but dwell on other things.
This morning, he had remembered his name. He should not have. He had abandoned it a decade ago, and not done so lightly. Once joined, he could not leave the service of the world no matter what he knew. Forgetting only made it easier, as he preferred. Though an older man, he still made a young fathe, having been the requisite forty years of age at his time of choosing a man of healthy if unremarkable face and height and

Posted by wrenbird (Member # 3245) on :

I think you did a good job of establishing a hook. The whole "remembering his name" thing caught my interest.
I have one qualm, and I know that there are some who would disagree with me. In the first two lines:
"The fathe entered the speaking hall with the guardians at his side and all the councils of ariel attending. Only he and the istrins knew the reason for his coming speech, and no one liked it."
I was thrown by fathe and istrins. Are they a group of people? Are they a type of creature. I couldn't picture the scene as well as I wanted to, because I had no clue what a fathe or istrin is. I think you need to clarify exactly what they are.

Posted by Surivas (Member # 3934) on :

Ditto - that first para from the fathe...dwell on other things was confusing. The second half fantastic. really made me want to read more.

Maybe reorganise it. Start with 'This morning , he had remembered his name and fit in the bit his entrance, speech and the reasons for it in the next para. It takes away the confusion about who or what the fathe and istrins are They can be described in greater detail later.

Posted by djh (Member # 3826) on :

I thought you had accidentally dropped the "r" on father when I read your first line and didn't realize my error until the second "fathe." This is confusing. Does he have a current name you can use? Perhaps, something like this:

This morning, Rhad had remembered his former name. He should not have.

Sounds interesting...

Posted by hoptoad (Member # 2145) on :

Hey English!

I will preface my statement by saying that there are varying opinions on how well the first thirteen lines conventions apply to novel-length works. Many think you have a couple of pages (like 5, give or take 2) to grab the reader when it comes to a novel.

Comments in general:

I think you're using too many new terms too fast. And the piece is unneccessarily wordy. I'm sorry, but I just would not keep going. My guess is that it's 100,000 words in total but probably only 40,000 words pull their weight. Could be wrong.

[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited September 26, 2006).]

Posted by wbriggs (Member # 2267) on :

I can't tell what's happening, so I wouldn't keep going.

Posted by englshmjr18 (Member # 3906) on :

could you give an example or two of my wordiness, hoptoad?
i've already cut nearly 100 k, so it's been a long verbose journey, and i'm curious to see what unneccesary words you see.

Posted by Omakase (Member # 2915) on :

I agree with most of the comments so far. There is not enough context to start throwing unknowns around in the first 2 sentences. The whole passage needs more clarity.

In writing "Istrins dreaded its implications, and he hated its complexity" you have two problems. In the first sentence you wrote the istrins as if it were a group or title or somesuch, but then come back to it as if it were a singular pronoun or a name. This is confusing. Secondly, "it" refers back to the coming speech, so writing about the complexity (for something as yet unspoken) of it is again, confusing. Not sure if the "he" is fathe or istrins. This needs to be clearer.

Ditto on "fathe" -- I thought you missed an R.

Maybe swapping the paragraphs would make more sense...something to think about.

Posted by hoptoad (Member # 2145) on :

Originally, I had some more comments in my post. I deleted them because I thought, 'wow, if it was me I would not like to hear that.' If you disagree, don't let it phase you, ask around.

It's wordy in a way that masks the fact that some bits don't really make sense.
Because you asked for specific examples here are some. Consider these sort of things:

Only he and the istrins knew the reason for his coming speech, and no one liked it.

If only he and the istrins knew, then how could 'no-one' like it? and no one liked it. appears to be padding.

Istrins dreaded its implications, and he hated its complexity. Besides, he could not help but dwell on other things.

Besides what? These lines don't scan. Should this be a new paragraph? Are you trying to say 'but'? Why not tell us what he was doing not what he 'could not help but' do. For instance. 'but he was preoccupied....' or something else less pat and more efficient.

If you look closely, you'll see lots of those sort of things.

If you want other comments let me know, or ask your trusted reader.

[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited September 26, 2006).]

Posted by Ellepepper (Member # 3520) on :

Umm, like where you are trying to go with this, but perhaps prue back on the Alien jargon for a little, Even being a sci-fi nut, I have very little clue what is going on or who we are seeing. Interesting but I'm still lost at the bakery with my finger in the jelly doughnuts.

Posted by englshmjr18 (Member # 3906) on :

thanks for the comments so far, everyone. they've given me a lot to think about, and confirm a few of my intuitions. keep em coming!

Posted by sojoyful (Member # 2997) on :

Everything I was going to mention has already been said, so I'll just second them:
- Can you give him some kind of name right away?
- Start with the name forgetting paragraph. It's an interesting hook.
- Too many unfamiliars are being introduced too fast. (the fathe, the guardians, the councils of ariel, the istrins) I recommend introducing them one at a time, with more information, in order of importance to the story.
- I thought "fathe" was a typo too.
- I'm confused about what's going on in this scene.

A thought: It seems like you might not be starting in the right place. Very quickly in this opening, you have him flashing back, thinking about something that happened before, and not about the scene happening currently. Perhaps that is a clue that you should start with the scene where he remembers his name? It sounds like an event of some significance to the story.

What hoptoad said about the first 13 of a novel is true, and I sympathize. I too am working on a novel-length work, so I know how tough it is. Hang in there. It sounds like you have a good story planned - it just needs its Sunday best to be steamed and pressed. Hey, that rhymes.

Hope this helps.

[This message has been edited by sojoyful (edited September 27, 2006).]

Posted by Elan (Member # 2442) on :

As the writer, you never have to change anything. However, as OSC says, you MUST understand that everything you write has a price to pay. In this case, your feedback is telling you the price for using the word "fathe" is a first-glance reaction that the word is a typo. Combined with the other elements in this fragment that aren't explained, you are leaving the reader with a sense of confusion that is keeping the hook from developing.

Calculate that cost from the advice you are getting, and see if there isn't a way to work around the "price". The cost of too much confusion, too early on, is that you lose your reader. Eliminate the ambiguities wherever you can.

In my opinion, if the word "fathe" is a proper noun, having it capitalized would help a great deal to flag me that you meant the word as it's written.

[This message has been edited by Elan (edited September 27, 2006).]

Posted by Pyre Dynasty (Member # 1947) on :

Is/are Istrins sigular or plural? If it's plural how can it be he? ("and HE hated it's implications")
Ditto on capitalizing proper nouns.