The warmth of the sun kisses my skin, and slowly nudges me out of my sleep. I wake and see that I have been sleeping at the lip of the ocean, where the waves froth up and spew all that they have churned up only to recede and repeat. I’m locked in a gaze. Stuck in a stare without intention, with out purpose. I just watch mesmerized. By the tenth sea junk spewing wave I realize there’s absolutely no sound to match what I am seeing.
I crane my neck. Perhaps a better angle will allow sound to bounce in to my ear until it registers a sound to my brain. I tilt and pause. Nothing. Where is that sound? I want to hear that low echo of the ocean that sound only a conch shell could capture and take with it away from the sea. That sound you don’t know is missing until it’s gone. For the first time there
[This message has been edited by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (edited November 19, 2009).]
Check out the Turkey City Lexicon.
http://www.critters.org/turkeycity.html
A list of easily avoided mistakes.
The prose is a little over-wrought for my taste.
Regarding your story--he wakes on a beach (you take along time to say this) where waves do their thing. It takes him ten waves to realise he can't hear sh*t? I would have noticed within micro seconds--most people would.
Think about how you would react to waking and finding you deaf--I presume he went to sleep by the ocean or is that also a surprise? If so, he seems fairly relaxed about the whole thing.
I wouldn't read on at this stage as the writing has room for improvement.
[This message has been edited by skadder (edited November 19, 2009).]
Yes, waking up is cliche yadda yadda yadda. If you can find a different way to start it great. There are some editors that dislike the waking up opening...but I doubt seriously they ALL do. So if you have another idea for a way to begin use it, otherwise...if this is how it starts this is how it starts.
Theres not a lot going on but it has a flow and some atomosphere going. I would want to know pretty soon why the character takes so long to notice the lack of sound, but it didn't distract me.
Send it to me. It'll be a few days but I'll read it for you.
The cliche waking up part has already been mentioned. It feels very surreal like he's doing drugs and is like "cool the sound turned off man." I think this is because he has no real emotion to waking up and being deaf besides fondly reminicing about the sound in shells. It feels more poetic than narrative at this point. It definetly has some nice imagery.
You can send it too me, I'll read.
But what they hey, I'm new, too...
I noticed you wrote in first person present tense. I've never really been able to follow this tense, it always seems too artsy for my taste. I feel as though I am constantly struggling with the prose in order to understand what is going on. I find it distracting.
"Woke up and discovered" is just as legit as "laid down and pondered," "stopped walking when he noticed," etc.
I don’t have a problem with waking as an opener, as long as I know how waking in this situation is related to what happens next.
In this case, I can't be sure if he was surprised to find himself on the beach.
"I wake and see that I have been sleeping on the lip of the beach." This implies he discovered himself on the beach, ie, he didn't go to sleep on the beach. But he doesn't express any surprise at being on the beach. So I can't be sure.
It usually tends to mirror the creative process of the writer (a particular cliche, less seen these days, is "waking up in a white room" which was, subconsciously, the writer looking at the blank piece of paper in the typewriter...). The writer is "waking up" into the story. It's fine to get you started on a draft, but generally it's then wise to examine that draft and see whether the story ACTUALLY starts when the protagonist wakes up, or whether it should start before that, or after that. Most stories start with an inciting moment, and it's easy to mistake "waking up" (because it's a transition from not-doing-something to doing-something) as an inciting moment. But it rarely, actually, is.
As oposed to the rather definitive borderline absolute "this is a newbie mistake you should avoid" approach.
Now of course some will take that as a lack of gratitude for their feedback, but it isn't. I realize they are suggestions I realize the final choice is of course the authors.
I just think it would be better to phrase it as a suggestion rather than a near-imperative.
Edit: I'm not talking about any one person, either on this thread or elsewhere. I know many disagree but I believe that especially on internet forums its usually best to qualify what you say and make it VERY clear what your intentions are since the medium makes it inherently harder.
[This message has been edited by Merlion-Emrys (edited November 20, 2009).]
However, I feel it must be pointed out that both of those authors had already made their name by the time they sold those works. There is, I'm afraid, a big difference between what you can do as a novice writer and what you can do when you have established a reputation. Editors will trust a name they know to take a familiar situation and move from it into an interesting story. They are less likely to be trusting of a newcomer's ability to do the same. Some editors do read to the end of every submission they receive. The majority do not, and some, particularly at the pro level, are sufficiently weighed down with contributions that they are arguably looking for ANY excuse to put one submission down so that they can move on to the next.
It sucks, but it happens, and if you are a newcomer you need to try and weight the odds as heavily in your favour as possible, because they ARE stacked against you (both in terms of pure statistics - see duotrope for submissions vs acceptances at most markets - and in terms of familiar names vs unfamiliar names - some editors may claim they read "blind" but it's a rare human being who, as an editor, could say "hey, I'm not fussed about this story by the guy who's published a dozen successful novels and won three awards, I'll take this other story by someone no-one's ever heard of instead").
The advice in here, even if couched as "definitive", IS only advice. It is well-meant, and in some cases hard-won, but anyone is free to ignore it if they so wish or choose. And who knows, if they sell their stories after having gone against the advice of others, then well done to them, and they can pass on what they've learned, too.
[This message has been edited by tchernabyelo (edited November 20, 2009).]
I don't doubt the people on this forum who insist editors hate clichés, I really don't. But if editors DON'T like waking up intros, then what type of intros DO they like.
Seriously, if you claim to have the inside story on story marketability, and if you're going to post 350 words of wisdom on this subject, then tell us how to get published, not just how NOT to get published; how to tickle an editor, not just how to irritate an editor.
With your level of success, I'm inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt and try to learn something from you. But if you claim to have a publishing ratio of 30/50, an impressive record in any fiction genre, and if you're going to post about marketability, by all means tell us how you did it.
You don't post intros from your own stories. Your Live Journal page doesn't include any of your stories. You offer criticisms but not rewrite examples. Your feedback is almost always negative. When are you going to provide us with that missing piece of the puzzle and tell us how It's done?
This is based on your comments on strings with my intros, the intros I critiqued, and the intros of writers whose work I'm familiar with. Granted, I'm new on this forum, but I think I've discovered a pattern.
If you'll notice a pattern in my critiques, on Hatrack and on Critters, I try to emphasize what's effective.
I've read and still read a lot of literature, so I think I know what's effective and what's not effective. I'm a new and unpublished writer, so I don't even pretend to be knowledgeable about what's marketable. I've seen lots of Turkey City type lists. Strange Horizons has one. Making such lists is very popular among editors and critiquers. I'm still waiting for the list of what makes editors smile. Call it an Eagle City list.
Published examples and why would be great. My experience with critiques of my manuscripts is that rewrite examples are the most effective type of feedback. A one paragraph rewrite is more valuable than a 1000 word analysis of what I did wrong. Yesterday, I got a got a 500 word critique of Gladiators. The one sentence that jumped out at me was a rewrite from the intro demonstrating how to change tell to show. Seeing it in print convinced me.
Besides it is the author's job to learn--if they wish to; critiquers may comment as little or as much as they please and bear no responsibilities in terms of re-writes. There are authors on Hatrack who spend too much time getting offended and not enough time learning...Not that I mind, there are too few slots to get published in anyway.
I do--mostly for my own amusement--sometimes re-write small sections of someone's intro, if I wish to illuminate an otherwise difficult point.
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But if editors DON'T like waking up intros, then what type of intros DO they like.
I dunno--but I know they don't like those...if I found an intro they do like, I would use it and not tell you!
"Hey," I shouted, "That's not the way to the Palladium."
"Really?" the guy said, lifting his eyebrows. "Which way is it, then?"
"I hear it's in that direction." I pointed to the well-lit street. "I found it once when I walked that way."
"So you don't really know then, do you?" The guy scowled at me, like I was wasting his time.
"I guess not." Should I tell him?. "-but you don't want to go down there."
"Yeah--sure. Thanks for the help, buddy." The guy sneered at me, then continued the way he'd been going.
I probably should have been more explicit, I thought, and said something about all the vampires...
[This message has been edited by skadder (edited November 20, 2009).]
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Just thought I'd add a couple of things that may help with figuring out where or how to start a story so that it is more likely to "hook" the readers.If you look at your introduction to the story as a way to tell the reader who the character is and what the character is here for, it may help hook the reader.
If you try starting by telling about what got your main character hooked into the situation of your story, then you have a better chance of getting the reader hooked as well.
Also, people might want to be careful with rewriting someone else's work, because they run the risk of making it their work instead of the work of the original author.
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Also, people might want to be careful with rewriting someone else's work, because they run the risk of making it their work instead of the work of the original author.
True. But, I submit that, for me at least a goodly percentage of the feedback I recieve here, re-write or otherwise has basically that effect or one much like it...the effect of "I don't like this kind of story/writing, heres how to make it more what I do like" or "this isn't the type of story/writting that editors (according to the critters opinion/info) like, heres how to make it into something that is."
As oposed to "Heres something I hope will maybe help you make this do what you want it to do more effectively" as the site guidlines themselves say is supposed to be the point. Of course thats hard if the person posting doesn't give some indications of what their intentions are with a piece (another thing the site guidlines recomend we do) although some times when someone actually does they recieve negative feedback for that as well (you shouldn't explain your work etc.) Thing is to get feedback in the context of a given work (which is usually what I want and I think whats usually most useful to an author) you have to provide that context.
I don't lay claim to anything I offer them that they ultimately incorporate into their stories, they don't lay claim to anything they offer me that I ultimately incorporate into my stories. Mutual giving/mutual benefit is one of the fundamental principles of workshops.
I've sowed so many seeds, how would I know who's used what in what way. Even if I wanted to keep track, even if I wanted to lay claim, it would be logistically impossible. Even if they quoted my suggested paragraph word for word, the change would have a ripple effect on the rest of the story and the adjustment to the ripple effect is their work. As far as I'm concerned, they're free to run with any or all of what I post.
If you analyze instead of rewriting, you're offering someone your analysis. If you rewrite instead of analyzing, you're offering someone your rewrite. Either way, it's your effort, your ideas, and you're giving it them.
I don't see a difference. If you see a difference, so be it. As for me, if I offer you something that works, run with it - all the way to the Hugo/Nebula award.
Then we have a dozen intros to discuss and improve on instead of one. The author assimilates all this, responds to the feedback, waits for more suggestions, maybe sends the whole manuscript to a few Rackers, then ultimately settles on what works for them and their story.
Either this guy was raised on a planet with no ocean or he has a never ending fascination with moving water, because he acts like this is the first time he's seen the ocean or he can't get enough of it.
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You don't post intros from your own stories. Your Live Journal page doesn't include any of your stories. You offer criticisms but not rewrite examples. Your feedback is almost always negative. When are you going to provide us with that missing piece of the puzzle and tell us how It's done?
1). I don't post intros from my stories because I'm not writing much at the moment.
2). My lj page doesn't include any of my stories because if I put them there I couldn't sell them. I post links when new stories are published (I had one at EDF about a week ago and pimped it appropriately). When I actually organise my own web page it will have links to published work. Several are also available at Anthology Builder, which IIRC allows you to look at the opening of any story.
3). I never offer rewrite examples because I don't believe in trying to change the voice of other writers to my voice. Every author voice is different and rightly so.
4). My feedback is often seen as negative, but I've posted positive feedback here from time to time. I concentrate on why I think a piece doesn't work. I have said on numerous occasions that I would read on, which means a piece is doing exactly what ir needs to do, from my personal and very limited perspective.
5). I can't give you the magic secret to getting published for two reasons. One is that I don't know it. Two is that it's different for everyone. I read marvellous stories from time to time that I could never possibly have written and would never even want to write. The only real lessons I can give about actual writing itself are those that would help another writer to write like me. If you want to write like me, that would be fine, but I don't think you (or anyone else here) actually does, and I am frankly not that good (there are plenty of writers here who are better, and who have better track records, than I do).
But you make ome valid points, and purely for the sake of example, I will try later this week (if I have time) to post some of my openings that have sold, and some that have not (yet), and see if I can explain what might and might not be working in these openings. But what an editor sees in my work may well not be what I see in my work, so all of it will still be personal opinion, to be heeded or dismissed at will.
If my voice is flawed, I need to change my voice. Mechanics will tell you to pay attention to the way your car runs when it runs correctly so you can isolate what's wrong when it isn't running correctly. Treasury Department agents study real bills for a long time before they ever study a counterfeit. There are 1000 bad ways to tell a story, only a handful of good ways to tell a story.
This is some good clay, MZ. With some more info about the plot and character, one of us potters might be able to turn it into something beautiful.
I'd read on just to find out how he got there and how he lost his hearing.
I found the title of this piece very befitting the prose. Meandering. But I also feel that that is the intended affect you had with this piece. As for positive advice... find the core of the story, the main conflict and start the story where the character becomes engaged somehow in that conflict. I would be glad to review your entire story if it is drafted or help you brainstorm a bit if you only have an outline. Shoot me an email if you like.
~Finn
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If my voice is flawed, I need to change my voice. Mechanics will tell you to pay attention to the way your car runs when it runs correctly so you can isolate what's wrong when it isn't running correctly. Treasury Department agents study real bills for a long time before they ever study a counterfeit. There are 1000 bad ways to tell a story, only a handful of good ways to tell a story.
In my opinion, voice is not the same thing. Voice is the individual's way of telling the story in their own words. Personally, I never know whether my opening is right without knowing where the story ends and what path it takes to get there, so I don't post openings of WIPs and I don't suggest rewrites for openings because I don't want to second-guess anyone else about where their story might be going and what might or might not be important. Plus I don't have time.
I have no objection to other people offering their own rewrites or "how I would have written this", but I personally do not want to do it, do not feel it would be helpful for me to do it, and indeed feel faintly offended by the implicit "this is how you ought to critique stories" message in your posting. You may find other people's critiques more helpful than mine, and I have no problem with that, but whether it's OK by you or not I will continue to critique what I choose, when I choose, and how I choose. As should everyone else on this site.
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I can't give you the magic secret to getting published for two reasons. One is that I don't know it. Two is that it's different for everyone. I read marvellous stories from time to time that I could never possibly have written and would never even want to write. The only real lessons I can give about actual writing itself are those that would help another writer to write like me. If you want to write like me, that would be fine, but I don't think you (or anyone else here) actually does, and I am frankly not that good (there are plenty of writers here who are better, and who have better track records, than I do).
Thing is non-re-write feedback can still be transformative. You're not as bad as some...but when your being told that something intrinsic to your story is "bad" or "weak" or essentially unpublishable (even if those exact words arent used) then its like your being told "change it or forget about publication." Same with the various "rules" and cliches...eventually it winds up feeling like you MUST write THIS WAY and/or MUST NEVER use this or that if you ever want to get published.
It's magnified when everything in the comments is negative...it begins to feel like your whole way of writing must just "not be good enough."
I'm not saying everyone just needs their egoes stroked but I think some times people forget something may be the way it is for a reason thats supported by the rest of the story.
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But what an editor sees in my work may well not be what I see in my work, so all of it will still be personal opinion, to be heeded or dismissed at will.
The trouble though is around here...and again you aren't the worst but you do it...people often express their opinions and suggestions as facts and commandments. Or very close too it. And combine with the issue discussed above, thats what can kind of rub folks the wrong way and create the feeling of the "style police" or whatever.
I think we all could use to be more open to each others different goals and styles, and I think open communication during the critique proccess (like whats been happening on a lot of adamatoms threads) should be encouraged. I don't buy the "but you can't talk to an editor" line. The point of workshops is to show your work to people you CAN talk to in preperation for those you cant.
I did enjoy the link to the the turkey city lexicon by skadder.
This is still my first thing I sat down to write. Im not sure how to describe other than that it's the realization that the main character is on a journey to rediscover things he has lost about himself, and about his awareness and understanding of past-present- and future and how intertwined they are.
I will be sending it out to all who requested it and look forward to the feedback.
Honest critiques no matter how harsh is all I am looking for.
I'll be back as soon as I can catch up with all the posts! thanks again.
I'm also pretty sure that all the "major cliches" can and do still sell...and I believe the only difference as far as "rule breaking" between new and old writers is the more experienced ones learn that their stories are more important than the rules.
Although on the other hand I think we all have projects we want to do, eventually, after developing certain skills to more effective levels.
Sometimes I will re-write something, if it I wish to--usually for fun--often to illustrate something I can't quite explain.
I think a few points to remember are:
1) Some people crit to improve their own writing, not necessarily to improve the author's. It may be a by-product--but it is only ever the author's concern to improve their own writing.
I spend my days with heroin addicts attempting to help them get drug free/stay away from drugs, etc.
The ones that succeed are generally the ones that listen to the wisdom that has accumulated over time--some of them have been in treatment six or seven times or more; I have treated hundreds and hundreds of of drug addicts in my career--does it bother me if they don't listen to my experience and decide to go down the obvious (yet flawed) routes? No, it doesn't. I've seen a hundred times. Some people don't listen. If you point out the flaws in their plan, they take it personally and their ears close. Now, at work I have to try and avoid that happening and take great pains to deliver my advice carefully couched for their particular sensibilities, but then their life hangs in the balance and I'm being paid to do it.
This is not the case here.
2) I don't care if the author improves or not. It's not something in my control--it's in their control. If they are unhappy with the food I serve then they don't have to eat it--it's free--so quit complaining.That may sound callous, but then the reality is that the author may decide to quit next week and never write again.
[This message has been edited by skadder (edited November 23, 2009).]
Merlion--not trying to be offensive--but I think these opinions are doing you a disservice. You have a fair talent for writing but a low quotient for learning and it has meant that your writing has hardly improved whilst you've been on Hatrack. You spend your time arguing over the same details with people who are professionally published--not published for love or a couple of bucks (Tchernobyl).
Perhaps we should split the forum into two groups--those who seek to be published and published well and thereby try and establish routes that achieve that. And those that don't.
Then we wouldn't have to listen to the same tiresome and unproductive arguments.
Yes, I know--I don't have to read them, but how many threads have been hi-jacked in the similar circumstances?
It is also important for those reading these threads (which will always be more people than are actually posting) to know the context of a person's advice so they can better judge whether that person might or might not know what they are talking about. I think it was Jim Hines who recently posted on his blog (about teaching, not about writing) that "you do NOT have the right to your opinion; you only have the right to your INFORMED opinion". In other words, by all means have an opinon on something, but be prepared to be able to justify that opinion with good reasons as to why you hold it. Which is why I also tediously remind people that, while I am not a pro by any means (I'm still technically short of SFWA qualification, though if BCS becomes a qualifying market as it should, I will be eligible), I have a pretty decent sales record by many people's standards. Plenty of markets I want to crack and haven't, and there is still clearly plenty that I don't know and need to learn.
Different people have different ways of exressing themselves and not everyone will stick "I think" or "In my opinion" on the front of every sentence. But that doesn't mean you have to treat them as if they have stated absolute facts that in some way offend your world-view.
Skadder' above, is probably harsher than I would have been, but I do question whether you are learning what you need to here, because you do have a tendency to dismiss any postings that don't support your seemingly-entrenched views both of your own writing and the way editors function (a side note: just today I read Doug Cohen, reader for Realms of Fantasy, state that he couldn't offer any analysis of trends in submissions because "most submissions I reject on the first or second page"). I recommended the other day that everyone should involve themselves in at least two writers' forums/groups because every group will tend to settle into its own dynamic and risks becoming stale because of that. And a group that agrees with you over everything you do is not going to help you develop. I joined Codex, for example, because I needed to be in a group that mostly contained writers who were and are both better and more succcessful (the two are not always the same, though usually they are) than I am.
ANd "better" in this instance is a purely subjective, personal, opinion.
Like EVERYTHING ELSE I SAY.
[This message has been edited by skadder (edited November 23, 2009).]
Sorry to hear you were sick MZ...something going around in my neck of the woods too. I look forward to your rewrite.
And thank you, MZ, for being willing to separate the stuff relevant to your 13 lines from the possibly useful but irrelevant other stuff.
May your efforts both succeed.
Now you're saying the same thing I've been saying.
What Merloin has been saying is you need the story's background and author's purpose to make your feedback more useful. In the case of Meandering Lotus Eater, I don't know enough about the story to recommend revision or rewrite. I said this, but MZ was sick.
So while contextual information can be useful in terms of honing a first 13, it's also something that won't be there for an editor deciding whether or not to read on. In general (and largely due to time constraints) I make my critiques in here with an "eitorial" hate on, explaining why I wouldn't read on. I don't advise rewrites because, as stated in my previous post, I don't have the context to determine the right start for the right story. I'll try and talk further about this once there are some comments on the various first 13s I posted up earlier today.
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If I conclude you're a member of the Style Police, I won't hesitate to say so and I'll explain why.
Most of the time I comment on whether the prose flows or if the pace of the story needs altering (as in sped up).
So I guess that makes me less of a member of the Style Police and more of a Meter-Made.
They can't write it for you. The are libraries full of examples...so you don't need critiquers to do that.
What a critiquer CAN tell a writer is that it shouldn't be on page X. It should be upfront--there should be hook in the first 13 lines and a good hook in the first page...and so on and so forth.
After all, reading a poorly formatted story can be...a pain.
[This message has been edited by skadder (edited November 24, 2009).]
[This message has been edited by skadder (edited November 24, 2009).]
Understanding that some here will vociferously disagree, I am of the conviction that there is a symbiotic relationship between humans and stories in general, and that there are techniques that will nearly always strengthen the relationship. If they appear to be relevant to why my eyes glazed over within thirteen lines, I'll state them, or sometimes provide an example if seems easier to communicate that way.
In my hobby of playing guitar I was exposed to something very powerful that was attributed to zen philosophy--that in order to learn one must always have a beginner's mind. The first time we try something new we are all "eyes and ears" and tend to drink in the entirety of the experience, but with repetition we can lose that attuned nature if we are not careful.
So it is important to adjust our mindset to that of a beginner such that we sense what is happening this time rather than recalling what happened before. Then we can judge where we are, and begin to see what it might take to reach our goals. For a writer, feedback from readers is an important measure, and continually falling back into a straw man debate over creative freedom versus totalitarian "rules" is the antithesis of approaching to learn with a beginner's mind.
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Some people crit to improve their own writing, not necessarily to improve the author's. It may be a by-product--but it is only ever the author's concern to improve their own writing
That’s fine…although I think its pretty rare and most people see the benefit to their own writing as the side or joint effect.
The stated purpose of the fragments area is to help writers get whats in their heads onto paper (or whatever) in a way others can best understand.
Honestly, if someone is “critting” solely to help them find and understand flaws in their own writing or what have you…why even post? Why not just take notes or whatever? You’ve even said theres a lot more people watching than posting on the forums…I guess I just don’t get why someone in it 100% for themselves would even bother.
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The ones that succeed are generally the ones that listen to the wisdom that has accumulated over time--some of them have been in treatment six or seven times or more; I have treated hundreds and hundreds of of drug addicts in my career--does it bother me if they don't listen to my experience and decide to go down the obvious (yet flawed) routes? No, it doesn't. I've seen a hundred times. Some people don't listen. If you point out the flaws in their plan, they take it personally and their ears close. Now, at work I have to try and avoid that happening and take great pains to deliver my advice carefully couched for their particular sensibilities, but then their life hangs in the balance and I'm being paid to do it.
While I fully see and understand why this would lead you to not want to do certain things or take certain precautions here, I don’t think the analogy between writers and drug addicts is a particularly good one for two main reasons, which are interlinked.
You’re comparing something that has a single, specific goal (overcoming addiction) to something that can have many different goals (creative writing.) Also in the case of writing there can even be multiple effective paths to the same goal.
Also, you’re comparing objective with subjective. Of course there’s some subjective psychological aspects involved in treating drug addiction but much of it is objective medical science…and again it’s a single, specific goal, and a situation where the goal is the primary concern and as you say there are well-defined proven ways of achieving it.
Creative writing however is inherently subjective and while there are certainly trends 1) they always change 2) even markets that focus on the trends usually do some other stuff too and 3) there are markets that are less interested in trends (and that’s not even going into the idea of a writer actually creating the new trends themselves.)
I think though, at least it seems to me, that 1) you assume everyone has the same goal that you do and wants to reach it the same way (or indeed that your way is the only way to reach them) and/or possibly even 2) other writing goals aren’t worth pursuing. I could be wrong. Its just the impression I get.
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I don't care if the author improves or not. It's not something in my control--it's in their control. If they are unhappy with the food I serve then they don't have to eat it--it's free--so quit complaining.That may sound callous, but then the reality is that the author may decide to quit next week and never write again.
That’s of course your prerogative. A lot of what I say comes with the assumption that we all want to help each other. It appears that’s not one of your goals and that’s fine I suppose…there isn’t any point then really in discussing that particular issue. Just don’t take offense if some times my feedback is to varying extents specifically in counterpoint to yours.
My goals are opposite. I care very much about everyone here “improving” which I define as better meeting their own personal goals. I also want them to continue writing. For me, the creative process is a sacred thing that I think greatly improves peoples lives, whatever form their pursuit of it takes.
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My goals are opposite. I care very much about everyone here “improving” which I define as better meeting their own personal goals. I also want them to continue writing. For me, the creative process is a sacred thing that I think greatly improves peoples lives, whatever form their pursuit of it takes.
Good--then we have a social worker amongst us. I am interested in being part of a community where the goal is to improve with a view to being published, and published well, if possible.
For me, that is fun. Writing vaguely to meet 'personal goals' seems a little wishy-washy for my taste.
I hope you are meeting your personal, non-publishing related goals...
However, I think your opinions are detrimental and confusing to newbies who may in fact wish to be published but feel it is a little premature to express that openly as a goal.
It's a shame we can't have symbols by our names so our stated aims could be seen by others. People who wish to be published could have a dollar sign by their name and people who want to do it just for fun could have...a... I dunno--something.
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So Merlion, let me sum up; anything is permissible,because there can't be any rules--especially if you don't care about being published? Most things are contradictory? Any critique should be carefully couched in cushiony language because the author may be offended, and we can't take that risk?
Of course anything is permissible in a creative pursuit. The question isn’t if a thing is permissible but rather does it help achieve whatever the goal of a particular creative work is.
There aren’t any rules. There are guidelines, ideas, philosophies. Some of which in terms of writing may generate broader appeal than others…or not. Again in the end its about intent…does a given thing work for a given stories goals or not? Your goal with every story is publication in a very limited list of markets. That’s fine and dandy and so to be as helpful as possible a person would want to gear criticisms toward that. In my case my goal with most of my stories is to best and most clearly present whats in my head…so the methods used to tailor a piece for your specific markets may or may not help the goals of my stories (just using you and I as one possible example.) But in your case this is rendered largely mute because you’ve stated you don’t care if your feedback is helpful or not. That’s you’re right. Just don’t get shocked if some times people ignore (as you say they should if it doesn’t work for them) and/or actually say they disagree with it or that it is unhelpful to them.
As far as “cushiony language”…I was always taught it’s a good idea to make it clear when you state your opinion that its your opinion and not an absolute. I was also raised to show at the absolute least basic courtesy and preferably kindness when dealing with people. Now I realize criticism can be inherently harsh in nature but I try to at least have my wording and speech be considerate. I also firmly believe (and I think I have read in some various articles about critique) that it is best to mention at least one positive in the course of a critique.
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Merlion--not trying to be offensive--but I think these opinions are doing you a disservice. You have a fair talent for writing but a low quotient for learning and it has meant that your writing has hardly improved whilst you've been on Hatrack
Several things. One, you’ve never read an entire one of my stories (indeed its rare for you to extend an offer of reading an entire story at all) so your going solely on tiny fragments of my writing. Second, “improvement” in a subjective thing becomes subjective itself. From you I take it to mean “You’re writing hasn’t moved any further towards fitting into the general preferences of the few markets I consider worth being published in.” But see, for my actual goals, the foremost of which is more effectively conveying and portraying the stories in my mind I have improved hugely…and Hatrack has been a great help in that, for which I appreciate and which experience I want to help other writers have as well.
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You spend your time arguing over the same details with people who are professionally published--not published for love or a couple of bucks (Tchernobyl).
So as soon as someone gets a pro sale, they are beyond reproach or disagreement? And by extension what about the opinion of writers like monstewer or C L Lynn who are published but just for “love and a couple bucks?” Are they meaningless?
Many now considered great writers were considered hacks in their day and died poor. Money isn’t the best measure of artistic merit (which is basically “in the eye of the beholder” anyway.)
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Perhaps we should split the forum into two groups--those who seek to be published and published well and thereby try and establish routes that achieve that. And those that don't
You misunderstand. I want to be published. But I want to publish the stories from my head, if possible. You, from what I can tell, correct me if I’m wrong, write what you think is most marketable. I write whats in my mind and search for an audience for it. Mostly. I actually DO write to specific markets now and then (BCS for instance which looks for a type of story I like to write anyway.)
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I am interested in being part of a community where the goal is to improve with a view to being published, and published well, if possible. For me, that is fun. Writing vaguely to meet 'personal goals' seems a little wishy-washy for my taste.
“Published well” is a matter of opinion. Theres plenty of writers here who consider all publication to be good and a happy thing. This community is one according to its own statements that is meant to help writers of all types with all their goals. Theres room for all of us.
The trouble is, you don’t seem to think so. You don’t seem to take very well to anyone disagree with you, offering a counterpoint to anything you say or otherwise inferring that your way may not be the one and only sole best way.
I can’t read your mind, so I’m not going to tell you what you are. But the things you say…to a small extent with say, initial comments in a first 13 and to a much greater extent in deeper conversation…make you come across as elitist, extremely dismissive of anyone who doesn’t share your goals in writing and a bit egotistical.
You seem to approach writing as a business and to have little or no thought of it as an art of a form of expression (again this is how it seems to me.) and that’s fine for you, but you don’t seem to want to allow anyone else to feel differently about it.
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I hope you are meeting your personal, non-publishing related goals...
See a bit above. The two are not mutualy exclusive.
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However, I think your opinions are detrimental and confusing to newbies who may in fact wish to be published but feel it is a little premature to express that openly as a goal.
I think perhaps I also relate to you a little better since we seem to write about somewhat similar subjects and stuff. Anyway I do want to respond to what you've said but if I try to now my head might explode. Would you object to me emailing you?
I think you are doing skadder a disservce in portraying him as someone who just "writes for money". If you really write for money, for a start, you don't write fiction - non-fiction is FAR better paid.
If all you want to do is see your stories published as you envisage them in your head, then self-publishing is surely the best route to that (whether it be print publishing a la Lulu.com, or blog/website publishing). I'm not sure, if your only aim is to get your stories out of your head and onto the page/screen, why you would put yourself through the rigmarole of submitting to markets at all.
I write very much what I want to write. The characters, settings and themes of my stories are entirely those I want them to be. I write fantasy (predominantly) because that is where my heart lies. You can argue that I am compromising my art by trying to present it in a way that an editor will buy, but I don't believe that's what I'm doing. I have made changes to editorial request at times - even finding a new way to end a story - but in those few cases (most of my work has been published without any editorial intervention, i..e. the words on the page are the words I sent to the editor) it has still been integral to my vision of the kind of stories I want to tell.
I am not getting rich doing this; I am unlikely ever to get rich doing this. As I've previously noted, I think my earnings to date from writing are around the $2000 mark, across almost four years, and most of that comes from three stories at pro rates. I have been writing for my own pleasure for more than (number excised because I don't like to think about it) years. I have improved as a writer more in the last five than the previous a-lot-more-than-five, and much of that improvement has come about because of trying to sell my work. So for me, and I'm not alone in this, getting published is a win-win situation; I get to be a better writer, and I get paid for learning. What's wrong with that picture?
[This message has been edited by tchernabyelo (edited November 24, 2009).]
There are just a few authors whose works I read from start to finish, but I find it detrimental to my writing to constantly immerse myself in stuff with loads of mistakes--stuff rubs off on me easily. I prefer to read stuff better than my stuff, so I can find what I am lacking.
When I played chess, I preferred to play people better than myself--I learned the most then.
The best feeling I have ever had was my first sale for $20, since then I have only sold 5 stories--and don't call myself elite. Monstewer has sold loads of stories and for more than a few bucks. Tchernobyelo has sold plenty of stories professionally--I aspire to have a track record like that.
I suppose it's elitist to want to achieve those things that only a few will be able to achieve--like many, I'll try and probably fail. Doesn't mean it isn't worthwhile setting that as a goal.
I write what is in my head too, of course I do. Like you I follow formatting rules and paragraph when someone speaks--we all follow rules and guidlines if we want a chance of being published.
I write because I want people to read my stories--the more the better. If that means avoiding the waking cliche, then I will. However you will note I recently posted a story where someone does wake up--so I am flexible.
Published well means to me published widely for good money. If one of my stories sold tomorrow for $20 I would still be very happy, doesn't mean I'm not aiming for better things--yes, I know, better is a matter of opinion.
There are plenty of people who say that artists are sometimes only recognised after their death--most of those people remain in obscurity, I would imagine. Besides being dead and having critical acclaim is pointless. I would prefer critical acclaim/money while I was alive, when I can appreciate it.
I probably have been a little harsh with you--and I apologise (your yadda, yadda, yadda, comment annoyed me). You are entitled to your opinions, I just think you are wasting your potential.
Just my opinion.
[This message has been edited by skadder (edited November 24, 2009).]
(I shall be trying WOTF again this quarter as currently I am still eligible, but my three attempts to date have been two HMs and a no thanks).
I get altogether $1250 but I haven't got it yet. Not saying I won't get it--just I have yet to see it.
Prior to that I have probably earned$80 altogether, with the highest paid story being 5c per word for a 750 word story.
I also got pro payment for my sale to Beneath Ceaseless Skies and am awaiting pro payment for my sale to the Paper Blossoms, Sharpened Steel anthology, but that may be a while off yet (it's pay on publication). Next best are the Black Gate sales (three at $180 each), only one if which I've received yet. I don't think I've earned over $100 for any other sale.
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So waking up and the beach are both cliches, but waking up is an overdone cliche and the beach is not yet an overdone cliche, apparently. What a minefield!
Got a good chuckle out of that one. You are the only one on this thread that said a beach is cliche, so in this post you are simply arguing against yourself.
Also I liked the minefield reference, when talking about a beach cliche. Well played!
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I probably have been a little harsh with you--and I apologise (your yadda, yadda, yadda, comment annoyed me). You are entitled to your opinions, I just think you are wasting your potential.
Ahhh. I wish you'd just said that in the first place. Probably not the best thing to do here without tone and gestures to convey it properly. It was meant to be mildly expasterated in a purely friendly way and I am sorry it didn't convey well. It was my fault entirely, and I accept and appreciate your apology.
I am curious to know though how you feel I'm wasting my potential...what that means to you in the context of something many people would consider more or less a waste irregardless.
Now what I would figure you mean, based on the things you've said and again please correct me if I'm wrong is that I'm wasting it because I'm not willing enough to make changes in how I write and what I write in order to be, at least according to some views, more likely to get published in major professional markets.
If that is the case than this would be my response (and this applies to what tchern said about self-publishing and "learning what I need to learn") I want to be published. I want my stories to get out to as many people as possible. I'd love to be paid as much as possible for it. However, I want to publish my stories. Thats not to say I don't some times write with an eye to a particular market or to current trends...some times I choose to do so for various reasons. Some times I write stuff that is what it is and that I'm not willing to make major stylistical or conceptual changes too for the sake of marketability...especially since it isn't sure fire anyway. Even among the SFWA pro markets theres a pretty broad range and many of them publish a lot of stuff that flies right in the face of "the rules" (Fantasy Magazine and Strange Horizons especially come to mind.) Out of the "big three" two are markets I'd be unlikely to ever get published by anyway because they publish only sci fi and I rarely write sci fi.
tchern you said something about making compromises in another thread. Thats what its about really. I AM willing to make some but which ones and how much vary depending on the story. And in the case of a story with which I'm not much interested in making a lot of compromises, feedback that is transformative, that basically says fundmental aspects of it should be changed, isn't going to be useful to me, and I'm probably going to say so (in an appreciative and respectful way, I think, generally speaking.)
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There are just a few authors whose works I read from start to finish, but I find it detrimental to my writing to constantly immerse myself in stuff with loads of mistakes--stuff rubs off on me easily. I prefer to read stuff better than my stuff, so I can find what I am lacking.
I can't really relate to your apparently more or less self-centric approach to participation in the forums, but its you're choice how to participate of course. I think though that maybe even more so than disagreeing about "rules" and all that was an underlying crux of our disagreements especially about feedback since I come from the assumption that we're all trying to help each other out. The reason your feedback is based entirely on your own writing goals is because its for your benefit, not theirs. But they don't know that and for me since I am interested in other people furthering their creativity I feel the need to counterpoint so that new writers realize, if they didn't already, that everyone has different goals and they can all be valid. Its not intended as a put down to you, only a presenting of different viewpoints.
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I write what is in my head too, of course I do. Like you I follow formatting rules and paragraph when someone speaks--we all follow rules and guidlines if we want a chance of being published.
Yes, but to me theres a big difference between technical rules and stylistic guidlines. We have to write in a way people can understand. Where the trouble comes in is with ideas about what sort of style, and content, people will like or continue to read. Cliches are a big example...if I want to write a type of story or plotline or opening thats been done before, I'm not going to not do it just because it might not sell because its cliche. Likewise if I want to write a story about a wanderer motivated by curiosity, I'm not going to not write that story because a lot of people here don't consider curiosity a sufficient motivation.
And even the technical rules have been broken successfully, such as in "Born of Man and Woman" and various other places...I think its probably even more common in genre fiction to, for example, have a strange creatures speech be presented in a bizzare way or some such thing, but that is something that must be used with care and consideration.
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I suppose it's elitist to want to achieve those things that only a few will be able to achieve--like many, I'll try and probably fail. Doesn't mean it isn't worthwhile setting that as a goal.
I agree. But what you said in the why are you here thread about trunking any story that gets rejected from 6 chosen markets doesn't make sense to me. I see the logic in submitting to better paying markets first, but I don't see any logic in trashing stories that don't make it there. You said you'd still be happy if a story sold for $20 so why not send them all to the "good" ones first and then just keep going? I mean their your stories to do with as you please but things like that are the kind of thing, without more information that give me that "elitist" and/or "in it for the money" vibe.
I think some times you just confuse me a bit because you say things but then when pressed you'll say things that seem the oposite of them. But then that happens, especially on the internet. I've no desire to condem or even irritate anyone, I just want this place to be open and comfortable for people no matter what directions and goals their creativity leads them toward.
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Different people have different ways of exressing themselves and not everyone will stick "I think" or "In my opinion" on the front of every sentence. But that doesn't mean you have to treat them as if they have stated absolute facts that in some way offend your world-view.
True. But, if one doesn't...I'm not sure a person should act surprised when someone assumes that their imperative statement is meant as an imperative statement especially if the overall tone of the post suggests it as well.
And even more so if, when thats pointed out to them, they continue to insist they are right. While you're correct that a lot of times people just don't bother to make it clear that they are just saying what they think and realize its subjective there are people who believe many things you and I can agree are subjective are in fact objective and that their belief about them is the only valid one.
And if a person doesn't take the time as you have to make themselves clear it can be hard to tell which is which (of course I realize most folks don't really see why I care as much as I do.)
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Skadder' above, is probably harsher than I would have been, but I do question whether you are learning what you need to here, because you do have a tendency to dismiss any postings that don't support your seemingly-entrenched views both of your own writing and the way editors function
I never actively try to be dismissive of anyone. I don't give much credence to those who (in an issue related to the above) seem to insist that all editors 1) function the same way and 2) have the same tastes and further that 3) this means you should base your writing primarily around 1 and 2.
The idea that the first 13 must be perfect (and that there is a general purpose perfect to achieve) because all editors will reject a story if they don't like the first13 lines is simply not correct. I mean the editor you mention even says first or second page. Thats just an example of one issue and its not to say those 13 lines arent important.
I just feel like here on Hatrack especially some times people get so fixed and focused on a particular thing, whether its the first 13 or showing not telling or whatever they tend to loose sight of a lot of other things. And, it feels to me in my personal self that they some times loose sight of the creative and artistic aspects of writing and storytelling in their overwhelming desire to "make it" and there overwhelming belief that this and that will help them make it and those things and the other will prevent them.
In conversation C L Lynn said something to me at one point about how its often historically been writers that broke molds and rules and created their own trends that really made it anyway.
I think both approaches have merit but I think on this forum the "nose to the grindstone, writing is a job, follow the rules if you want to get published" viewpoint tends to dominate a little, so I feel like another voice or viewpoint is a positive thing.
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I recommended the other day that everyone should involve themselves in at least two writers' forums/groups because every group will tend to settle into its own dynamic and risks becoming stale because of that. And a group that agrees with you over everything you do is not going to help you develop. I joined Codex, for example, because I needed to be in a group that mostly contained writers who were and are both better and more succcessful (the two are not always the same, though usually they are) than I am.
I use Liberty Hall as you know, I recently joined LegendFire...I've used Scrawl but its generally not very helpful as anything genre and/or over a thousand words rarely gets responses...I tried Baen's Bar some as well but despite the claims it can be used as a general critique source all the critiques are still pretty much based on the publication preferences of Jim Baen's Universe and most of what I write doesn't and isn't going to fit that so most of the feedback was of that "instructions how to write a totally different story" variety.
I probably get the highest useful feedback ratio on Liberty Hall, but the trouble there is you don't get a lot of feedback outside the Challenges whereas here you can always put stuff in F&F although theres the chance you may not get offers for a full read which is mostly what I'm after.
I've learned a lot from all of those places on a lot of levels. Communicating with other writers has been about as interesting as the writting and learning about submissions and all that itself.
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The idea that the first 13 must be perfect (and that there is a general purpose perfect to achieve) because all editors will reject a story if they don't like the first13 lines is simply not correct. I mean the editor you mention even says first or second page. Thats just an example of one issue and its not to say those 13 lines arent important.
You keep doing this; taking other people's generalisations and turning them into absolutes just so you can then dismiss/disagree with them. I keep stating (and should probably stop because I dislike repeating myself) that very few, if any, people here are saying "every editor does X", or that "Y is a universal truth". But you're just constantly making straw men out of other people's arguments and then cutting them into pieces. And you also make such fine distinctions as to make me wonder if you're even reading - I referred to "first or second page" and you seize on that as proof against an assertion no-one ever made (that "all editors" choose to reject or not after 13 lines) even while it actually strengthens the "first 13" argument. First page rejections mean that the editor in question will probably have read 13 lines or FEWER, if you're using standard MS formatting (as the magazine in question requires).
Please stop this style of argument. Please stop requiring eveyrone to put "In my opinion" or "Generally" or "I think" in front of every sentence in every posting and assuming they are trying to lay down some Stalinist diktat if they don't, just so you can go "hah, you are wrong, because in a small percentage of cases that doesn't happen!". Writing is not an exact science and I believe EVERYONE ON THIS BOARD KNOWS THAT. But you choose not to believe that as and when it suits your "I want to do it my way!" purposes.
Validate yourself all you wish. COntinue to write how you wish - I don't believe ANYONE has told you otherwise. But accept that if the way you wish to write differs from most other people in a given community, you will get, and will continue to get, criticised for it.
[This message has been edited by tchernabyelo (edited November 25, 2009).]
At this point, we have all collectively spent many thousands of words arguing against one another fruitlessly. I for one would rather write than continue the general stream of argument that has been fermenting lately. Speaking of which, skadder has something new for me to crit, and I might have something of my own to submit shortly.
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I agree. But what you said in the why are you here thread about trunking any story that gets rejected from 6 chosen markets doesn't make sense to me. I see the logic in submitting to better paying markets first, but I don't see any logic in trashing stories that don't make it there. You said you'd still be happy if a story sold for $20 so why not send them all to the "good" ones first and then just keep going? I mean their your stories to do with as you please but things like that are the kind of thing, without more information that give me that "elitist" and/or "in it for the money" vibe.
I'm lazy...I hate subbing. I have zero stories out at present, but probably 15 stories I could send. When I was subbing a lot I would find a whole evening could be taken up identifying a market and formatting according to what they wanted and sending it. I hate all that.
So, yeah--I'm in it for the money! I decided to sub to six markets then dump the story (until I become famous and they'll buy them anyway!). I would like to point out that those six markets are unlikely to be all pro markets.
In fact I have only subbed one story to one pro market EVER. SF&F. The rest have been to semi-pro and token.
I confuse you? You think I am inconsistent in my opinions? Possibly, given my mood, what sort of day I've had etc. But then opinions shouldn't be hard and fast...or should they?
[This message has been edited by skadder (edited November 25, 2009).]
...except in terms of stamina for arguments. Phew...
[This message has been edited by skadder (edited November 25, 2009).]
That's a good one. Lol. Yes, you're right, but everyone submits to WotF, so I didn't count it.
I have submitted to two pro markets--WOTFx3 and SF&Fx1
I hold my head in shame. I lied.
[This message has been edited by Dark Warrior (edited November 25, 2009).]
I'm keeping my eye on you, MZ.
You have some very large misconceptions about me...based mostly on this: You say nobody is speaking in absolutes and everyone knows that "writing isn't an exact science." Great. Thats how you see it. But thats not how I see the words of many people here. And I find it hard to believe you aren't aware that there are people in the word, and this forum who have what we'd consider opinions that they consider facts. But, I realize, in the end you don't really care and mostly just want me to shut up about it. So, I'm going to do my darndest to do so. I'll take whatever good or usefulness I can get from the forum as far as feedback on my writing and limit or end my participation in the rest.
skadder: yeah you definitely confuse me. I assume based on what I know that thats cause your confused yourself. I'm probably wrong but I no longer have the energy to care. I think I've finally realized that these forums are useful to me for feedback, to an extent, but can't really give me what I'd like as far as a place to discuss writing more broadly and conceptually. Just wish I'd figured it out sooner.
My apologies to anyone I've offended or whose time I've wasted.