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Author Topic: New piece, I'd like some feedback please.
Monolith
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This is the begining to my hero thing, just wanting to know how you guys like it or not.
This is the one I've had to rewrite since I lost the original some 10 or more years ago.

Thanks for your time in advance.
-Bryan-

---------------
James Covington surveyed the scene outside the Delmarr Federal Depository. Chaos and pandemonium reigned as police were shouting indistinctly to each other as they gathered outside the financial institute.

Curious onlookers were kept behind barricades by police as they were set up. Several officers clad in their standard issue adaptive kevlarium body armor, stood by each barricade. They were armed with standard issue pulse plasma rifles and paralysis grenades.

A short-stature man in full armor walked towards the front of the depository. “This is Lt. Mathews of DPD, you are surrounded, come out or else,” he demanded.

A large mountain of a man appeared in the destroyed entrance and chuckled, “We ain’t fraid of nobody, especially your CARDS unit.”

Without thinking, James yelled, “Mathews get your group out of there, they can’t handle him.”
Mathews slowly turned and glared James and said, “ Officer Reynolds, escort that man over here.”
Reynolds motioned for James to follow him.

James stepped over the barricade and the escorting officer realized how big the man was and his face paled.


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wbriggs
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Recommend a book I'm reading, Rainbow Six by Tom Clancy. Several terrorist-handling scenes. My reactions to yours for now:
* Good writing
* The enemy of the cops appeared in the doorway? He's no professional, he's an idiot. They could have shot him. And why is the cop afraid of the big man? He could shoot him. He's stepping over the barricade, to meet a non-disarmed bad guy? I don't follow at all.
* Show me the chaos, don't tell me; I'm not sure what it means. Show me the line of cop cars (or are there barricades). Are there windows? Where are people positioned, approximately? If you give me so much detail it's annoying, you can cut it out later. But for now, I just know that I'm not able to see the scene.

[This message has been edited by wbriggs (edited March 06, 2005).]


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MaryRobinette
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Hi Bryan,

This feels like I've come into the middle of a comic book--I like comics, or graphic novels so that's a good thing. But there are a couple of things that I find off-putting all of which are really nit-picks.

quote:
James Covington surveyed the scene outside the Delmarr Federal Depository.

"Surveying" is not a very active thing and tells me little about your main character except his name and location. Can you rework it to give me a sense of how he feels about the scene? While you're at it...the word "scene" is also not particuarly descriptive, whereas "chaos", which you use later, is.

quote:
Chaos and pandemonium reigned as police were shouting indistinctly to each other as they gathered outside the financial institute.

"Chaos" and "pandemonium" are synonyms, so you're using two words to say one thing. Also, you've got an unnecessary "to be" here with "police were shouting". Can't they just shout? More on the nit-pick level, you've ended this sentence and the next with the same clause structure "as they..."

"A short-stature man" Okay, I'll admit, this is a pet-peeve. It's the word "stature"; it tells us nothing. He's a short man.

Now in the rest of it, I'm assuming based on their reaction to the mountain of a man (by the way, if James know this guy is, it might be a good idea to drop his name here) that he's some sort of super-criminal that bullets won't do anything too. I'm also guessing that Matthews and James have a history or Matthews would have just ignored him as a heckler. It must not be a close relationship since no one else on the force, or at least not Reynolds, knows him.

I'd be curious to see where you go with this.


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Jimbob squarepants
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I have to agree with Mary and wbriggs, more showing and less telling. You don't want to hold back too much info. For example, While I'm sure that you will eventually tell us about the CARDS unit , perhaps fitting information like that in earlier rather than later will be help give us a small (brief ) bit of background on the good guys and in turn the bad guys.
Are pulse plasma rifles and paralysis grenades standard issue for all police officers or just members of the CARDS unit?
If you have not done so already, check out J. Michael Srtaczynski's Rising Stars and Marvels Supreme Power. (also written by Srtaczynski)
Keep at it, I’d like to see where this is going as well.

[This message has been edited by Jimbob squarepants (edited March 06, 2005).]


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Monolith
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OK, here's the same opening rewritten, does this "show" you a little better? Does this grab you a little better? Or what more does it need?

-Bryan-

-----------------------

James Covington surveyed the devastation outside the Delmarr Federal Depository. The front of the building looked like someone ripped it open and threw the debris into the street. Glass was everywhere, the vault door was lodged deep in the building across from the financial institute. The door and frame were bent up at weird angles and had hand holds where it looked like someone crushed them. Police were shouting to each other as to where and what they were going to do.

Curious onlookers were kept behind barricades by police as they were set up several blocks from the bank. Several officers clad in their standard issue adaptive kevlanium body armor, stood by each barricade. They were armed with standard issue pulse plasma rifles and paralysis grenades.

A short man in full armor walked towards the front of the depository with three fully armed officers as escorts. “This is Lt. Mathews of DPD, you are surrounded, come out or else,” he demanded through a bullhorn.

A large mountain of a man appeared in the destroyed entrance and chuckled, “We ain’t fraid of nobody, especially your CARDS unit.”

The Counter Aberrant Recovery Detainment Squad was a special detachment of the Delmarr Police Department.

---------

Sorry in advance if this goes one line too many, couldn't leave out the Department in Police Department.

-Bryan-


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TaShaJaRo
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Monolith - this opening is better but I feel like it is a distant omniscient viewpoint, even though it really isn't. James is your viewpoint character, right? Try describing the scene from his point of view, not just stating what he sees. Imagine if YOU were there and had witnessed this. Now you are telling a friend about what you saw. How would you describe it? I'm not saying you have to go into first person but you could go deeper into how James interprets what he sees, more than just the facts of what he sees. Pick details that would particularly affect him and/or catch his attention. No one, in a chaotic situation like that, will notice everything. Pick only what he is most likely to notice and describe it from his perspective. That would make it even more powerful.
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wbriggs
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Ditto, plus: curious onlookers? This must be a pretty safe form of terrorism, if they're not afraid of catching stray bullets. If the cop going to the entrance isn't afraid of being shot, and the bad guy in the doorway is willing to show himself to snipers, tell us why. Better yet, let your POV character think why. And what's he feeling? Bored? Terrified the bad guys will whack a hostage? Hoping the rest of the department doesn't find out he's been feeding info to the terrorists?
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Christine
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"Chaos and pandemonium reigned as police were shouting indistinctly to each other as they gathered outside the financial institute."

Two things bother me about the phrasing of this sentence. First, you repeat the word "as" twice. Is there any way to be rid of one of them? Second, why "were shouting" instead of simply shouted?

"Curious onlookers were kept behind barricades by police as they were set up."

There is some confusion in this sentence. What was being set up? I think you mean the barricades but the reference is unclear. Also, you have the repetition of the word "were" twice in this sentence.

" Several officers clad in their standard issue adaptive kevlarium body armor, stood by each barricade. "

I'm pretty sure you need a comma between officers and clad. The reason is that the first part of this sentence is not a lead-in. Rather, it seems to me that the phrase "clad in their standard issue..." is a phrase that modifies the officers.

"A short-stature man in full armor walked towards the front of the depository."

statured (with a D) maybe?

“This is Lt. Mathews of DPD, you are surrounded, come out or else,” he demanded.

What is DPD and would he say that or would he spell out the ful lname of the police department in question?

"Without thinking, James ..."

who is James?

"Mathews slowly turned and glared James and said, “ Officer Reynolds, escort that man over here.”"

This should read: Mathew slowly turned, glared at James, and ....

Basically, you were missing the word "at" and rather than itemize the list of actions you stuck an extra "and" in there.

"James stepped over the barricade and the escorting officer realized how big the man was and his face paled."

First of all, you say "and" twice in this sentence. Second, who is "the man" that you are referring to? Also, this sentence might be a run-on. I think you have more than one idea going on here at the same time.

*********************8

Ok, I spotted who James was. I guess he's supposed to be your POV character, but so far we really aren't in his POV. It's just a bunch of stuff that's happening. If we were in his POV I would know who he was and what he had to do with anything. So far, I can't figure why he would be yelling at this police officer.

I'm afraid I think this opening needs a lot of work. First, I had to read it twice: once for language and again for content.

As for content, I'm really not at all sure what we have here. I don't know who anyone is or what's going on. We have a lot of good description of a futuristic PD. There are subtle clues that this is going someplace interesting, but nothing fully engaging.


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Christine
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Ok, just caught your rewrite. It is better, but most of my comments still apply. The improvement comes in the description of the scene in paragraph one. That helps me to see what's going on and serves as a slightly better hook. Still, there are point of view issues. It also looks as if you are about to launch into some exposition with the CARDS unit.

WHo is James? What is he doing there? Why does he care about what's going on? What does he know about what's going on? The description of the scene gives me some clue but is that all James knows and if so, what does he think it means? This human connection is what I am looking for.


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Monolith
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Does this do any better you guys?

----------------------------

James Covington surveyed the devastation outside the Delmarr Federal Depository, and he couldn’t believe his eyes. He heard about the robbery and came right away to see it for himself. The front of the building looked like someone ripped it open and threw the debris into the street. Glass was everywhere, the vault door was lodged deep in the building across from the financial institute. The door and frame were bent up at weird angles and had hand holds where it looked like someone crushed them. Police were shouting to each other as to where and what they were going to do.

James saw the developing scene and thought, This looks like Tank’s doing and this could go from bad to worse in a hurry. I’m only a bounty hunter, not a cop, but ,I may have to step in and help out. They can’t take what he deals out, and I barely can. I’ve got to do something. I’ve got the power to do what needs to be done, but at what cost to me and the surroundings.

Curious onlookers were kept behind barricades by police as they were set up several blocks from the bank. Several officers, clad in their standard issue adaptive kevlanium body armor, stood by each barricade. They were armed with standard issue pulse plasma rifles and paralysis grenades.


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MaryRobinette
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This is better on many fronts. I think you can get deeper into the POV--if that is appropriate for the piece--by finding all the places were you refer to James seeing, feeling and cutting those verbs to create the effect that we are tied into what he sees and feels instead of having it reported to us. This is a subtle but important difference.

I'll take your opening line as an example.
"James Covington surveyed the devastation outside the Delmarr Federal Depository, and he couldn’t believe his eyes."
Good. Gives me an immediate sense of the scene and tells me how he feels about it, but I am outside his head. Why? Because the first thing I "see" is "James Covington surveying". With me so far?

So if you cut the word "surveyed" and tweak the sentance to something like, "James Covington couldn't believe the devastation outside the Delmarr Federal Depository." I wind up right inside his head. Everything else in the scene becomes something that I see through him. In the first version, he is part of the scene I see; in the second I see with his eyes. Does that make sense? It's an odd little thing.

Play with it on the second paragraph and see if you like the effect of this technique. Not knowing the rest of the story it might be wrong for you, but it can be very effective.

Oh--do you mean to use "standard issue" in both of the last two sentances?


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benskia
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I liked version 2 best I think.
If you could just get the fact that James is already familiar with the mountain of a man in there, it would work great for me.
Can you fit his name 'Tank' into it somewhere. Which is also a great name you picked btw.

I didn't like the third one. Thought it was a bit cheesy with the 'he couldn't believe his eyes' stuff and 'im a bounty hunter, not a cop' bit.

Just my humble opinion though.


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Monolith
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Ok, here goes: If anyone wants to read what I have on this piece let me know and I'll email it to them. Take as long as you need on it, because I'll probably be rewritting a bit of it here and there. If you want a little character background let me know so I can include that in the email.

Ben, his hero name isn't Tank, it's Tower. He's 6'9 375 black eyes and hair. Wears all black.

-Bryan-

[This message has been edited by Monolith (edited March 12, 2005).]


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Ogi_Ogas
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Monolith:

I’m commenting on your most recently posted version. I did not look at the earlier versions.

You’ve certainly got the makings of a compelling action narrative, with the bare bones of some engaging larger than life characters. I’m certainly curious about both Tank and James. I think you present your information in the right order to hook the reader.

I think you need to spend time developing your style. I’ll suggest some ideas which might help focus your efforts.

Paragraph 1
Maybe start: Bounty hunter James Covington could not believe his eyes.
Maybe: Police were shouting.
Maybe take out looked like someone ripped it open since you provide good clues for this.

Paragraph 2
You’re spelling out too clearly what James is thinking. Show us what he’s thinking through his actions, or perhaps distill this paragraph to a single sentence. Something that expresses: James knew he might be the only one able to help, but not everyone might be grateful if he did.

Paragraph 3
Cut out: standard issue.
Make the narrative flow a little more smoothly. Perhaps try:
Curious onlookers were kept behind police barricades. Several officers clad in adaptive kevlanium body armor and armed with pulse plasma rifles and paralysis grenades stood by each barricade.

Good luck!


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Monolith
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Ok, here's Version 3.5 so let me know if this is any better.


-------------------------

Federal Rant Bounty hunter James Covington couldn’t believe the devastation outside the Delmarr City Depository. He heard about the robbery over his scanner and came to see it for himself. Glass was everywhere, the vault door was lodged deep in the building across from the financial institute. The door and frame were bent up at weird angles and had hand holds where it looked like someone crushed them. Police shouted to each other as to where and what they were going to do.

Curious onlookers were kept behind barricades by police as they were set up several blocks from the bank. Several officers clad in adaptive kevlanium body armor stood by each barricade. They were armed with pulse plasma rifles and paralysis grenades.

A short, stocky man in full armor walked towards the front of the depository, with three fully armed officers as escorts. “This is Lt. Mathews of the Delmarr City Police Department, you are surrounded, come out or else,” he demanded through a bullhorn.

Oh great, William Mathews is here. He don’t like me stepping in where I don’t belong, but he appreciates it if I can save a few lives. But I’m the head agent for the region, if I‘m going to step on toes, I‘m going to make sure it hurts, he thought as he saw Mathews taking charge of the scene.

-----------------------
Sorry I went a little too long but I needed to finish his thought.

I hope I have cleared up a few things with this. I took the advice of a few of you guys and hopefully this is a good end result.

Thanks again
-Bryan-

[This message has been edited by Monolith (edited March 15, 2005).]


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rjzeller
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Okay, I can't open the attachment you sent me so I'll start here:

I'm going to work from this last version, but first let me say I applaud MaryRobinette's comments. Her take on getting into the POV is excellent, frame that post...

Now this revision is much better to me, but I still think you can make some improvements.

The first sentence is okay, but the "Federal Rant Bounty Hunter..." just goes too long for me. If you had "Detective James..." or "Officer James..." it'd be better. Of course, that's NOT what he is, but I'd still strive for something less verbose in this case.

Also, the description of the building is better, but I actually think you lost something here. You were right to get rid of "the building LOOKED like...." But I think you can still incorporate some of that. Something to the tune of "the depository spilled it's contents into the street..." I also prefer to use something in place of "was" whenever I can. Note -- do not get rid of that word just for the sake of removing it, but if you can replace it easily, do so. "Glass lay everywhere," or "Glass covered everything," also, "The vault door had plunged..." or something of that nature. Kinda helps to bring the scene to life.

I still don't like the opening sentence to the second paragraph. You've told me about the onlookers before you've told me where the heck they are. Place thier location first and I think you'd get rid of some awkwardness: "Several blocks down the street, curious onlookers pressed against police barricades for a better view."

I think you can combine the last two senteces (paragraph 2) into one compound sentence...but that's really a style thing.

Paragraph three -- many might comment on "Short, stocky" but I'll leave it be. I will say you might try to replace "with" with something else. "accompanied by.." or "flanked by"... which are both much more animated than "with".

I like the deep penetration in the last paragraph, but don't overdo it. I might conciously think to myself "Oh great, William Matthews is here...", but I'm not likely to think to myself the rest of that paragraph. I might reason it out, but that's not the same as thinking those very sentences to myself. This is a case where you can narrate for him and it's probably better: "But James was the head agent for his region, and if he was going to step on toes, he would make sure it hurts...."

It may not seem much better, but to me it's more acceptable because I can tolerate the narrator telling me something the character might not conciousely think. For me, I generally only use the tactic "Oh great, Bill is here, he thought," if it's actually something I might say out-loud. Otherwise, let the narrator comment on it.

For instance, I might say "Nice one, Rich, Now you're really in for it."

To which I could write: "Nice one, Rich thought, now you're really in for it." and it probably reads okay.

Other things would just sound corny if spoken aloud to oneself. Thoughts that occur to us that we use to reason things out, but which we don't conciously put into words, are thoughts which can be narrated.

my 2 pennies....

I will say this...your writing has REALLY improved! Hatrack seems to be working well for you.


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MaryRobinette
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One of the posts buried in here say that you'd like someone to read the whole thing. Want to send it over?
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Monolith
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Here's version 3.75, I took the advice of everyone and hope that this keeps getting better. Let me know if it hooks you into the scene or what.

-Bryan-
------------------------

Rant Bounty hunter James “Tower” Covington couldn’t believe the devastation outside the Delmarr City Depository. He heard about the robbery over his scanner and came to see it for himself. Glass littered the street, the vault door lie buried deep in the building across from the financial institute. The door and frame were bent up at weird angles and had hand holds where it looked like someone crushed them. Police shouted to each other as to where and what they were going to do.

Several blocks away from the bank, curious onlookers were kept behind barricades by police as they were being set up. Several officers clad in adaptive kevlanium body armor stood by each barricade, armed with pulse plasma rifles and paralysis grenades.

A short, stocky man in full armor walked towards the front of the depository, escorted by three fully armed officers. “This is Lt. Mathews of the Delmarr City Police Department, you are surrounded, come out or else,” he demanded through a bullhorn.

Oh great, William Mathews is here. He don’t like me stepping in where I don’t belong, but he appreciates it if I can save a few lives, he thought as he saw Mathews taking charge of the scene


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Drew Adams
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Monolith,

I'd be happy to read your story. Can you e-mail it to me? Thanks.

Drew


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Monolith
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Hey Drew,

You can email me and I'll return your email along with what I have so far on this piece.

Thanks for the interest.


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Drew Adams
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Sorry, I forgot that my e-mail address isn't public. I'm still new to this club and am still figuring out how things work. Thanks for your patience.

Drew


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Monolith
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Ok, gang,which opening is better? I took the advice of a peer and tried it from a different angle on the first one and the second one is the original opening. Could you give the reasons which one is better and why?

Thanks
-Bryan-

------------------------
Lt. William Mathews screamed to the scene of a robbery in progress in his squad car, lights and siren blaring. He was followed by a convoy of vehicles that included a transport vehicle, five other squad cars and a mobile command vehicle. He knew that the perpetrators were Rants so he asked a few of the CARDS members to assist him at the scene. After arriving, he noticed glass littered the street, the vault door lie buried deep in the building across from the financial institute. The door and frame were bent up at weird angles and had hand holds where it looked like someone crushed them. He was also aware of a gathering crowd and saw a man only known as Tower. He ordered his men to set up barricades several blocks away to keep the onlookers relatively safe from danger.

Tower stood 6’9 and weighed 375 pounds and was an immense and intense man, from what Mathews remembered from personal experience. Tower was also a Rant, possessing limited invulnerability, a bio-blast and superhuman strength, he knew from the dossier he kept in his desk back at the station. He’s also a great ally in the fight against the rouge rants that decided to make nuisances of themselves, he thought as he walked through the debris to take up position near the entrance of the bank

Ok, here's the original opening, with minor corrections.

----------------------
Rant Bounty hunter James “Tower” Covington couldn’t believe the devastation outside the Delmarr City Depository. He heard about the robbery over his scanner and came to see it for himself. Glass littered the street, the vault door lie buried deep in the building across from the financial institute. The door and frame were bent up at weird angles and had hand holds where it looked like someone crushed them. Police shouted to each other as to where and what they were going to do.

Several blocks away from the bank, curious onlookers and news crews were kept behind barricades by police as they were being set up. Several officers clad in adaptive kevlanium body armor stood by each barricade, armed with pulse plasma rifles and paralysis grenades.

A short, stocky man in full armor walked towards the front of the depository, escorted by three fully armed officers. “This is Lt. Mathews of the Delmarr City Police Department, you are surrounded, come out or else,” he demanded through a bullhorn.

Oh great, William Mathews is here. He don’t like me stepping in where I don’t belong, but he appreciates it if I can save a few lives, he thought as he saw Mathews taking charge of the scene.

Tower was the lead agent for the region and didn’t mind stepping on toes when it was necessary and when he did he made damn sure it hurt. He actually liked taking over, but the repercussions were a pain in the ass to deal with.

A large mountain of a man appeared in the destroyed entrance and chuckled, “We ain’t fraid of nobody, especially your CARDS unit.”

------------------

Thanks again for your time guys.
-Bryan-


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