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» Hatrack River Writers Workshop » Forums » Grist for the Mill » Random musings. (Page 44)

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Author Topic: Random musings.
genevive42
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A riddle then:

quote:
How many letters are there in the answer to this question?

This has led to many debates amongst my friends though there is only one right answer. I'll post that answer in a few days.


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shimiqua
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0
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genevive42
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Nope.
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genevive42
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After this I won't say whether an answer is right or wrong, so everyone has a chance at it.

Feel free to explain your answer if you like.


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Kathleen Dalton Woodbury
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shimiqua's answer makes sense to me. The question is asking for a quantity, which is expressed as a number, and unless you write the name of the number out, you don't have any letters in the answer.
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Kathleen Dalton Woodbury
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On the other hand, if you are asking how many letters are in the word "answer" (which is in the question)--or even in the words "the answer"-- or even the words "the answer to this question"--then the number of letters would be 6 or 9 or 23, respectively.
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Robert Nowall
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Now that's better...
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Owasm
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How many words are in 'question'?
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Robert Nowall
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Ooh, a game of Boggle...I get "nest" and "quest" and "not"...
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Kathleen Dalton Woodbury
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quiet, quiets, quite, ton, tons, quote, quotes, stone, stein, tone, tones, note, notes, quit, quits, nest, nut, nuts, ten, tens, tin, tins, sin, son, sent

I love Boggle.


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philocinemas
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I would guess there is only one "letters". In fact there is only one of each word in that question.
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philocinemas
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Or if KDW is right, it could be either 23 or 12 depending on if the letters are counted independently or as "different" letters.
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genevive42
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In the debates with friends over this riddle, as I was trying to explain the answer, I came up with a slight addendum to clarify the situation. I hope it helps and does not confuse. If it confuses, refer to the original version of the riddle as that is how it was presented to me.

quote:
How many letters are there in the correct answer to this question?

I will also tell you it is based on logic.


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rich
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I cheated by looking it up.

And I still don't understand the logic considering there really is no "question". But I'll wait to debate until you post the answer.


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genevive42
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No more takers?

I'll post the answer over the weekend. Get your guesses in now.


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philocinemas
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26 if you stick with the English alphabet.


Edited to add: One of my answers has to be right.

[This message has been edited by philocinemas (edited May 21, 2010).]


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Robert Nowall
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Thirty if you count every letter, even the duplicates. Some are even in italics...
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Pyre Dynasty
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Enough.


(As in there are enough letters in the answer.)


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genevive42
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The answer is: Four

I'll let you think about it for a bit and debate before I make an attempt at the explanation.


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rich
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Since you've given it, four is the only number that has the same amount of letters as its number. (One has three letters, two has three letters, three has five letters, etc.)

However, I take issue with the question itself, which isn't really a question. I agree that one can use "four", but I also think one can use any number of answers since the "question" is vague, and can stand for any number of things. I mean, what if "four" isn't the correct answer? What if it was "sixteen", so the answer would be seven. The problem, I think, is that we're never shown the "question".

It's kind of like Bilbo asking, "What's in my pocket?"


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Kathleen Dalton Woodbury
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How many letters in "this" (four)?
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Kathleen Dalton Woodbury
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Okay, I see what you're saying.

So?


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Utahute72
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I would guess Four because 4 has four letters in it.
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billawaboy
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Maybe cuz it's almost 2 AM here , but I don't really see the problem. It's a self referential question. In this case the question refers to it's own answer - so it seems that the answer can be anything. But all you need is a self-refential answer cuz that's what the question demands!

The answer simply has to be defined as equivalent to the number of letters it's spelled with. If spanish is allowed, 'cinco' would work also.

as an alternate example consider

"What color is the answer to this question?"
"Black."

The answer refers to it's own color. I could choose to say red in red color and so on.

The basic idea is that the answers holds it's own meta-data.

Another example:
What language is the answer to this question written in?
English.
Espan~ol.
Deutch.
Francais.

All these words carry meta-data about themselves - their language. They are the answer and have the characteristic the answer refers to.

You get the idea...


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Robert Nowall
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Languages, huh? Somewhere I've got a copy of a poem that's written in both Italian and Latin at the same time...if I can find it I'll post a couple of lines...
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genevive42
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rich, part of an explanation that has helped my friends understand is this:

The question defines what it is asking for within the first three words.

First, it asks, "How many?" That tells you that it is looking for a numerical value, a quantity.

Next, it asks, "How many letters?" That tells you the quantity of what you are looking for.

Then it is a process of elimination to find the numerical value that creates a correct, or true, statement.

billawaboy is right when he says that 'cinco' for 'five' would work if this were in Spanish. Very clever.

I hope this helps.

And I hope you've had fun with this little riddle. Okay, so it might be frustrated fun but hopefully not just frustration.


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Pyre Dynasty
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I guess that works. Although I say my answer is right as well.

You and I and we and them are us, who isn't?


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rich
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As the Scotsman said to Bugs Bunny: "It's clear the weight of the evidence is against me."


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shimiqua
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Lost was brilliant.
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Robert Nowall
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Never watched it. I soured on extensively-detailed TV shows back when "Twin Peaks" promised a lot and delivered little. (Yet I'll freeze-frame and zoom in when some animation has things in the background I want to take a look at...)
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philocinemas
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I didn't really buy the logic question - it seemed too determinant on interpretation. Plus I don't really see "four" as a question. I'm not questioning you, genevive42; I just don't see how the way the question is worded rules out other plausible answers.

***LOST SPOILER ALERT*** - OF COURSE IF YOU DIDN'T SEE IT YOU PROBABLY DIDN'T CARE
In regards to Lost, I enjoyed the reunion, but I was a little disappointed. In some ways I began to want a split reality ending (one happy and one like what actually happened). Not saying that going to wherever they were going wasn't "happy", but it would have been nice if they could have all gotten their "new" lives together and grown old and had (or kept) their children. If dying makes everyone so happy, then why isn't everyone dying to do it? (There's a logic question).

Here's another (Old and Easy): If a vehicle is traveling down a road at 60 mph and is 60 miles away from its destination. How long will it take to get to its destination if it decreases its speed at the same rate as it draws closer to its destination?
(When it is 30 miles away it will be traveling at 30 mph, and likewise when it is 15 miles away it will be traveling at 15 mph).


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Kathleen Dalton Woodbury
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Well, you add an hour to the amount of time you've already travelled each time you decrease your speed.
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Pyre Dynasty
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Philo, four isn't a question it's the answer. You may have missed a word when you read the question for which the answer is four.

As to lost, I guess it's finally time for me to hit up my friends to borrow their dvd's. It's a plan I hatched back when they started sacrificing pacing for longevity.

As to the riddle, it's simple, forever. Not literally though, it'll just feel like it when you get down to 1/4th of a mile an hour.


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Robert Nowall
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Didn't The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy series establish that the Answer to It All is "Forty-two"?
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Robert Nowall
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Also on the finale of Lost...well, the reviews seem positive, but as time passes and the meaning of what happened sinks in---and also when people run it again from their DVD-
Rs and TiVos and whatever---I wonder how much "positive" will remain when the fans realize this bit or that bit wasn't explained at all...

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shimiqua
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I don't think it will be a problem, they left clues, and the show really just is what it is to the watcher.

Lost is kind of like the Little Prince in that way, if you just read the surface it's a cute intriguing little story, but that's not the reason it is so many people's favorite book. That reason is what the reader took from it, and the answers the reader makes for themselves. No one questions what a snake really looks like from the inside, and I think fans won't question what the smoke monster actually is or how it was made.

Well, except for grumpy people who just want to be contrary. But there is no pleasing them anyway. Grownups.
~Sheena


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Robert Nowall
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By the way, I didn't watch the season / series end of 24 either...wasn't my kind of thing, was never my kind of thing...

Here's a link to a rip'em'up review of the Lost finale on Big Hollywood...

http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/aleigh/2010/05/25/no-love-lost/#more-351798


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philocinemas
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Here is my problem with the logic problem:

"How many letters are there?" is the actual question.

"in the answer to this question" is a prepositional phrase that refers back to the presumed question.

If "this question" refers to "How many letters are there?" then the answer could be 8 or 9 depending on if the same letter can be counted twice - the answer for the English alphabet is 26 (comprised of 9 letters, including 2 "t's")

If "in" refers to the words "the answer to this question" then the answer is either 12 or 23.

If the question refers to the word "letters" then the answer is 1.

The way I interpret the official answer is that "four" has to be both "this question" and "the answer". But all in all it is only a matter of how you interpret "this question".


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Robert Nowall
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Last online session of my vacation...did no writing but had a good time relaxing...it's back to the grind later tonight, and I've gotta see if I can get some sleep in the afternoon after getting used to sleeping at night like a person with a normal job...
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Pyre Dynasty
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It would be great if this bbs system had a sentence diagramming tool.

You're right that the core question is "How many letters are there?" (If that was all there was to it the answer, depending on the language, is 26.)

Then it is modified by the preposition "In the answer." And then that preposition is modified by its own preposition, "to this question." "To this question," does not modify "How many letters are there."

If we talk through it:
Person 1: "How many letters are there?"
Person 2: "In what?"
Person 1: "In the answer."
Person 2: "The answer to what?"
Person 1: "To this question."

If someone said to you, "I want to shoot at the monkeys in those trees." They'd be saying they want to shoot the monkeys, not that they want to shoot in those trees. That's just where the monkeys are.

If there was an "and" or even a comma in-between "in the answer" and "to this question" I could support your reading, but as is it is clearly asking just about the answer.


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genevive42
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Pyre you have just blown my mind. Way to go.
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Utahute72
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Somewhere there are a ton of gnats twisted in knots lying on the ground.
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satate
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I still don't get it. What exactly is the question?
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snapper
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Anyone consider roman numerals?

Ecks-eye-eye-vee

yep, that fits.


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satate
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I do beleive the roman numerals for 13 are XIII. You only subtract from V when doing 4. It still works though and I still don't get it.
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jayazman
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I don't get it either. I don't see how it is a logic question. There is nothing logical about a circular question. Genevive42 said there is a process of elimination, but since there are no parameters, there is no way to exclude anything.

All the other breakdowns are using syntax to explain, not logic.

Technically, since the question is asking for a quantity, a numerical value, there doesn't have to be any letters in it, so zero works just fine. It's like asking, how many feathers are there on your body? Just because the question asks for a certain criteria, doesn't mean the criteria exists.

Can anyone give another explanation? I still don't get it.


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Robert Nowall
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I Googled it...the answers I looked at were less illuminating than those posted here.
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genevive42
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jayazman, satate and any others that are still confused, I understand. I have sat around with friends and co-workers trying to hash this out and for some people it just doesn't click. There is no problem in that.

Let me try a little more though.

The question asks: How many letters?

You're right when you say it could be answered with a numerical value but there is still only one answer that makes the statement correct. That's why I had the version with the little addendum. Let's check it out.

If you say the answer is 0 - well, regardless of whether you put a numerical '0' or 'zero', there are still four letters in 'zero'. So, if you answer of zero has four letters in it, it cannot be correct for the exact reason that zero has four letters in it. It is like saying 0=4.

Likewise, consider the conversation if you answer three:

A) How many letters are in this answer?
B) Three.
A) No, by your answer, there are five.

There is only one answer where the numerical value and the actual number of letters in the word match, thus making the statement correct, and that is Four

Hope this helps.


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genevive42
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Whoops, got a double post.

Oh well, how about those Bears?

[This message has been edited by genevive42 (edited May 28, 2010).]


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philocinemas
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quote:
How many letters are there in the answer to this question?

Regarding diagramming - I am very good at this (I went to high school and college, majoring in English, when this was still being taught).

In questions, the subject and direct object appear to be inverted. "There", a pronoun, is the subject, "are" is the verb, "How" is an adverb modifying the adjective "many", which modifies the DO - "letters". Then we have two prepositional phrases, as you mentioned, that modify the first part of the sentence.
- "in the answer" clearly modifies "letters", specifying where they are located.
- "to this question" does modify "answer", but is less specific. "This" is an adjective either self-referential or referring to another "question". It is a nonspecified modifyer.

Pyre, this is nothing like: "I want to shoot at the monkeys in those trees."

It is more like: "How many monkeys are there to shoot at in this question?"

Are we waiting for another question?
Are we supposed to come up with both question and answer?
Are we referring to the question itself?

This is where interpretation comes into play. To paraphrase a famous quote, it all depends on what the meaning of "this" is.

If, in the first question, the answer is "four", then "this" refers to another question.

It could read like the following:
1 - How many letters are there in the answer to this [certain] question?
- This is asking for a question and answer that are the same, but from a different question. "This question" is: Four? "How many letters in the answer" is: 4.
2 - How many letters are there in the answer to this [same] question?
This can be read a few ways:
- How many letters are there [in the answer to this question]? - (twenty-six/8-9)
- How many "letters" are there [in the answer to this question]? - (1)
- How many letters are there in "the answer to this question"? - (12 or 23)

Now that I have run this debate completely in the ground, how about something completely random:

In 1986, my college biology professor suggested that I might be a mutant due to an abnormality in my blood type.

[This message has been edited by philocinemas (edited May 28, 2010).]


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