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Author Topic: The Waterfall House
GavinLoftin
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This is the first thirteen of a story I'm working on that should end up being about 8K. Its not finished yet so I'm just looking for critiques on the first thirteen. Does it capture you at all and draw you in. I can't tell whether its totally drab. Here goes. . .


They thought about that night in the ravine. Mr. Sooley in particular couldn't stop turning it over in his mind. He sat on the wooden porch of the High House and it was pouring out. The planks were already dark and so laiden with rain they no longer creaked when he walked. Only the drops tapping on the leaves and the faint hiss of the waterfall far below kept him at peace in an otherwise silent afternoon.

Yesterday, after returning, they had drawn up the rope that usually hung hundreds of feet over the lip of the porch. It was used to gather fruit and large nuts that grew in the thick swath of trees clinging to the cliff face. Now though, none of them dared go down again, at least for a time yet, at least until they came to some reckoning with the ravine. The moist green shadows far below had once been a comforting place, the cool spray of the falls, the moss, thick and dewy on the ledges.

Mr. Sooley stood and walked on his toes to the rail. His feet were bare and small. He shook some water from his hair to fall far below. It disappeared quickly into the rain, dropping to where the mist gathered in the depths.


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Christine
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My main thought here is that you probably should have started with that night in the ravine. I don't know what's going on, and that's annoying, but more to the point That's what this opening is about. You start with the incident in the ravine but rather than show it you tell it and rather than tell it you elude to it in a smugly superior "I know something you don't know" kind of way.
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GavinLoftin
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I didn't mean it to be smugly superior, sorry. I don't start with the night in the ravine for a number of reasons. First, the story itself is not about what occured in the ravine, but about the characters emotional reactions to that event, and more importantly the story itself is really about the events that occur after it. Secondly the event in the ravine will be explained, but I want the reader to get to know the characters first because their actions in the ravine would seem odd and totally unexplainable or unrealistic without knowing them first.

Without any proper setting explanation the event in the ravine wouldn't be understandable at all. It would be even more like "whats going on?" then the beginning is already.

I will try to remove any feeling of smugness if possible.


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Beth
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I like the title a lot, for some reason.


It didn't seem smug to me. I'm curious about what happened in the ravine.

If the story is about what happened, then I'd like to see a little more reaction in the opening - something that hints at whether what happened was good, or bad, or totally neutral. That no one dares to go down there again kind of hints that it was bad - I'd like to see another hint or two like that.

Two nitpicks:

Mr. Sooley in particular couldn't stop turning it over in his mind. He sat on the wooden porch of the High House and it was pouring out.

What is the "it" in the second sentence? As written, it reads as if the "it" in the first sentence and the "it" in the second sentence are the same, but apparently the first "it" is "what happened in the ravine" and the second "it" is rain.

And in the 3rd sentence - "laiden" should be "laden"

I like the way the words sound together. I'd read more. Please let me know when it's finished, and if I'm not overcommitted, I'll read.


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hoptoad
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I like the images -- very much -- but think you may have started in the wrong spot or in the wrong way if you want to draw me in. Maybe have them hauling up the ladder in a desperate hurry.
Right now you seem to show us the precise moment when the anxiety subsides.
Some of the exposition could probably be achieved in subsequent dialogue. ie:

'It was that thing, with the thing!' she screamed, hysterical.
'Just remember the other night in the ravine.' He tried to calm her but it had the opposite effect.
'Was that the thing too? It got Tom and Betty!' she screamed again.
'No!' he said, 'I mean: We survived that; we'll survive this.'
She screamed even louder, 'I don't want to die!'
'Shutup! It'll hear you.'
That shut her up, which was good; he didn't want to slap her -- again.

That was very tongue in cheek, but you know what I mean.

[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited February 09, 2005).]


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Survivor
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Who are "they"? I only see one of "them".

You can't effectively show us anything meaningful about the character[s] through emotional reactions to "that night in the ravine" until we actually know something about that night in the ravine.

Whether or not you're trying to be smugly superior isn't the problem. The problem is that you don't have any justification for not revealing information, but you're making the reader wait for it anyway. This can work on naive readers, but it doesn't work on editors and it doesn't work on me.

Most of the prose is okay. There are only a few real prose issues aside from "them" (which isn't just a prose issue, as it turns out). There is a rather confusing passive construction with a poorly referenced pronoun, "It was used to..." rather than "they used it[the rope] to...", and other less critical problems (many of which also involve poorly referenced pronouns). Fixing your pronoun references should do lot for both the variety and clarity of your prose, but other than that I wouldn't say you have a major problem with the language.

Your POV use is ineffective. We don't have any clear indications of why Mr. Sooley notices/feels/thinks any of the things presented, nor do we have any idea of his reactions to most of them.

"Mr. Sooley...couldn't stop turning it over in his mind." Why not? What emotions are aroused by thinking about it? How does he feel about the fact that "it was pouring out" and the rest of the waterlogged setting? Why does he need "the drops...and the...waterfall" to keep "him at peace in [a]...silent afternoon." What is unpeaceful about silence?

You say that "they" returned yesterday, but from where? Why did they draw up the rope "used to gather fruit and large nuts"? At least we know that it is because "none of them dared go down again...until they came to some reckoning with the ravine." But what does that mean? You bother to tell us that the ravine "had once been a comforting place," but don't tell us what it is now. Is there danger? From what?

Why does Mr. Sooley walk "on his toes to the rail"? Why does it matter that "his feet were bare and small"? Why does he shake "water from his hair to fall far below", and how does he feel watching it disappear "quickly into the rain, dropping to where the mist gathered in the depths"?

A great many unanswered questions, and don't tell me that you'll answer them later. I don't believe you, because of this opening. I have no reason to believe that you are capable of revealing pertinant information in a timely manner. These thirteen lines are the place to show me you know what you're doing with POV and story information, and you've completely blown it.

It isn't an issue of "smugness", though an editor might think something along those lines while tossing this aside without even looking at the next page. It's a matter of showing the reader that you actually have the intention and ability to tell the story rather than evade the topic.


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GavinLoftin
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Survivor, I have become increasingly frustrated by the rigidity with which many encapsulate the short fiction genre. You seem to suggest that the concision demanded by short fiction requires an author to explicate each "pertinent" detail, though fail to realize that vagueness, that allusive language, that oblique references can imbue a story with a mood, with emotive clarity. Perhaps more significant to the story is a feeling of dissipation, of malais, of an ominous, even pernicious, presence. The ambiguity of this setting, of this character's emotions, is perhaps integral to the greater narrative. Perhaps events in the ravine are most importantly of threatening but nebulous import. Perhaps this story is in need of a great deal of work.
Even in this response I am skirting the issue at hand, as if to imply the vitriol of your comment is unworthy of reference. Or maybe I only approach your presumptuousness obliquely to decry the sanctimony and audacity of such personal assaults on the author.
Unfortunately, the interesting feedback of the last comment was obscured because Survivor mistook voracity for veracity, honesty for insult, clarity for contention.
Hoptoad, I agree that Sooley needs greater emotional clarity.
Beth and Survivor, both your comments about the use of pronouns are justified, and I will work diligently to correct the problem.
I do apologize for the fervor of this message, and I will always welcome candid, if reflective, criticism.

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Christine
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When I used the phrase, "smugly superior" I didn't mean it literally. I was actually in the middle of doing two other things and I fear I did not give this enough thought.

As for Survivor, while I have noticed a certain amount of rigidiy in how he believes a short story should be set up, he is usually correct. He sticks to the "rules" and while those rules can be broken, as we have discussed countless times, they usually shouldn't, especially not without a very good reason. And if breaking the rules keeps me from reading past line 13 where your good reason unfolds, it doesn't do any good.

Ambiguity and uncertainty to not create suspense; they create confusion and make the reader/editor put the story down. True emotinal identification with a story comes from knowing exactly what is going on and giving a damn. If we know what is going on, we may still not care, but if we don't know what's going on we can't possibly care. And that is the problem with this opening, put as succinctly as possible.

quote:

You seem to suggest that the concision demanded by short fiction requires an author to explicate each "pertinent" detail, though fail to realize that vagueness, that allusive language, that oblique references can imbue a story with a mood, with emotive clarity.

Wow, you seem to be saying that lack of clarity leads to emotional clarity. That is really impressive. If you ever manage to do that with a story, you'll have to let me read it. In fact, if you ever find it in a published story, you'll have to give me the reference.

But wait, before you give me that reference, read it again yourself. How did the author really use uncertainty and msytery? How was that oblique reference woven into the plot? Was it that we didn't understand what the story was even about or was it that a part of the bigger picture remained hidden, especially from the POV character, until the right moment? What lent the emotional clarity, was it the oblique reference, or a connection to the clear parts of the story? Did we feel agony because the main character is suffering in some known way, or because cryptic and colorful language tells us about pain in general, almost ephemeral terms?

Now, argue with me all you want. Tell me how critical this ambituity is to the greater narrative. Tell me how, at the end, it's all going to come together in some wonderful and meaningful way. Tell me anything you want, but I'll still tell you the same thing: I don't care.

[This message has been edited by Christine (edited February 10, 2005).]


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hoptoad
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Look, I liked the images.
But agree with this:
quote:

[There are] a great many unanswered questions, and don't tell me that you'll answer them later. I don't believe you, because of this opening. I have no reason to believe that you are capable of revealing pertinent information in a timely manner. These thirteen lines are the place to show me you know what you're doing with POV and story information, and you've completely blown it.

The key phrase is: I have no reason to believe
However, that is not specific to you: it is not vitriol; it is a fact we all have to deal with. The reader has to have a reason to believe you will deliver a satisfying story.

When I find a book that seems to say: 'You are unlikely to be satisfied" there are a great many other writers I can choose to read instead.

Mood can only be set by Mood. If you want to convey emotion it can only be done through indciating the charatcer's emotion otherwise you are relying on the assumption that your emotional response to the image you are creating is the same as the reader's response to that image.

My emotional response to the scene was 'cool house but bummer if you had vertigo'. Maybe because I had no way to see it from the POV Characters perspective (except visually). I didn't even really care about the ravine, and I don't think that was what you intended.

As I said you seemed to start in a reflective moment, it is post action. Which is why it seems out of place to me. We are left thinking 'huh?' Not 'ok this looks creepy'. It would be much more staisfying if we knew -- even a little bit-- about what had happened.

[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited February 10, 2005).]


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Survivor
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Sorry about the vitriol, whatever it may have been. Sometimes I just shoot people down with "POV", "Withholding information", "Unreferenced pronoun" or similar shorthand phrases. I just happened to pick this time to explain what some of those mean and why they matter.

And I maintain that for marketable fiction, they do matter. How much varies from market to market and reader to reader, but I think there's a good side of the line and a bad side of the line. If you're commited to arguing that being deliberately obscure to create an effect in the reader's mind is a great technique, I'll pass on arguing the point. But I suggest you read The Standard Deviations of Writing by Roger MacBride Allen, paying special attention to point 17.Writing to impress rather than communicate. True, he concentrates on aiming at the effect of intimidation rather than simple confusion, but the principle still applies.

Beleive me, I understand that "the rigidity with which many encapsulate the short fiction genre" can be very frustrating. Particularly since most editors are among those many. I'm an aspiring writer too, you know. Even the published writers here know the pain of wanting to do something different and being shot down by the herd. I don't mean these things as any kind of personal assault, I'm just telling you what your text tells me as a reader. I'm answering the question "Does it capture you at all and draw you in?"

I won't insist that you be grateful I gave a more informative answer than "no". But do consider taking a deep breath before flaming anyone for their critique. We all know how it feels to have people tell us our writing is no good, we aren't fooled into thinking that an attach on a critique is anything but wounded pride. On the other hand, I wouldn't worry about it, we've all made snippy comments about critiques from time to time. There are several threads in the other forum devoted to nothing else. But from now on keep it in the other forum, with names withheld, and we can all commiserate together.

It may turn out that you don't need my advice on writing. I'm not the whole of the reading public, after all. My comments are only my own opinion. But that's all that any of us can offer you here. Ultimately, that's all that any reader--be they an editor or a kid in a library--can offer (well, okay, we hope that they offer money too, but that's pretty secondary). Don't get upset because one person didn't like the way you open your story. Even if nobody likes your story, you still shouldn't get upset, you should just try and figure out what you're going to do about it.

Remember, "I will not turn into a giant snake, it NEVER helps."

I'm kinda on the fence about using UBB codes, on the other hand, they're a pain when you don't type them exactly right, but I kinda feel like they're useful at times.

[This message has been edited by Survivor (edited February 12, 2005).]


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wbriggs
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It definitely hooks me. I'm fascinated by a house you dare not leave, and by a house on a cliff. For whatever reason.

I would agree: if you keep secrets from me that the POV character knows, it annoys me. It didn't this time because it's only 13 lines and I assumed you were just about to tell me.

Nitpicks:

"They thought" -- yes, I think it's Sooley thinking this, not some "they"

"it was pouring out" -- when I first read this I though, pouring out what, out of what?

I don't know much about Sooley. Shaking water out of his hair surprised me; I pictured him as having very short hair. A man with tiny feet? Maybe they exist, but it's strange and maybe irrelevant. He's the only viewpoint so far; does he really think of himself as "Mr."?


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wbriggs
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What's a UBB code?
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Survivor
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It's those parts of my post where a typo renders a significant fraction of the post unintelligible. You can find an explanatino of them by using the*UBB Code is ON link next to the text box when you post something.
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Kathleen Dalton Woodbury
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UBB Code is part of the software for this website. It's what turns a colon ":" and a paren ")" placed next to each other into a smiley face among other things.
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