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Author Topic: Question On First 13 Lines
Ezuma
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I'm not really complaining here... well, I guess I am complaining... but what is the point of the first 13 lines?

Every critique I've seen on here, they're expecting the story to be handed to them on a silver platter in the first 13 lines.

You can't really expect every question you've asked to be answered in the first 300 words can you?

I'm not whinging about mine, I've received some helpful feedback, especially from HSO, but there are some things I have issues with such as, "He's studying for Psychology so I figured it to be a medical drama," or something like that, and "I had no idea it involves magic."

How exactly am I supposed to reveal the entire story is about magic if the protagonist himself doesn't know he possesses this power?

The impression I'm getting is that most of you just randomly buy books from a bookstore, not reading what it's about or what genre it is, and read the first 13 lines, and if you don't like it you don't read it. If you actually read the blurb on the back of the book, wouldn't you actually see that it's a Fantasy or Sci-Fi or whatever and a book that you'd enjoy reading?

I'm done.


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rustafarianblackpolarbear
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doesn the old expression go --"don't judge a book by its cover"? In that case, surely reading the first 13 lines is a better idea than looking at the cover or genre. Personally, I don't believe in it, but I'm not game to mess with the expression.
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Ezuma
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I agree with that, but you may not like, say the idea of Harry Potter. You may not be interested in a wizarding school and the like. I've got no problem with that.

But to argue your point of reading the first 13 lines as not judging the book... how is reading the first 13 lines of the book going to tell you if you like the book or not? How much do you actually expect these lines to tell you?


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rustafarianblackpolarbear
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well first of all I DON'T LIKE AHRRY POTTER! I can't stress that enough.
Secondly, It's not the genre that readers fall into, thats reserved only for the writer. All story ideas have certainly been done before and it is in the style of telling the story that makes a reader feel like reading ones story rather than another one on a similiar topic. That said, there is no relevant connection between this story and Harry Potter.

I'm done.


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yanos
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Shall we start with...
1) 13 lines because that doesn't mean you have 'published'.
2) We can tell things about the quality and clarity of the writing.
3) No editor is going to read the whole story if he doesn't find the first page interesting. There are too many stories out there already.

So, in theory your story needs to set us up with the character and the theme as soon as possible. We don't need to know everything, but we need clarity and a reason to read.


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Ezuma
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Fair enough, but why do some the critiquers (sp?) find it neccessary to question what the story is even about before it's actually started.

In my story, I'm trying to have the narrator biased towards Saverio, and not reveal anything that Saverio doesn't already know.

So far, I've revealed that he is a Psychology student, and he whinges about not wanting to help people, yet all I've received is criticism about it. What's wrong with it?


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LeGLeSs
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I was once told that the first sentence of a story should ask a question whether it's an outright question or says somthing that you question, it makes the reader interested... did that make sense???

[This message has been edited by LeGLeSs (edited June 16, 2005).]


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HSO
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You need to remember that a critique is only an opinion. It cannot be taken as all right or all wrong. Everyone has different tastes, and we are all biased. We like what we like.

Really, if you wanted to sum up all of the critiques you've received in your Saverio story, it could be: "This doesn't quite interest me yet." Which means, the writing isn't yet strong enough. That's all. That's all it says. Everything else is everything else. Opinions, advice, thoughts, all of these offered with the best of intentions with hopes of helping you improve. You're going to receive lots of criticism. Lots.

This is no big deal, and nothing to worry over. You're learning. We all are. Writing isn't easy. And there is lots to learn. The best thing to do is not explain yourself when someone offers an opinion. Just let it ride. Take it in. Because you won't have a chance to explain your story to readers or editors. They'll take it at face value.

Now, those first 13 lines (and everyone's) say far more than you might think. Truly, by reading those, we can tell how far along an author is in their development. I usually try to guage my comments based on how I perceive that development. (This doesn't mean I'm a better writer, by the way.)

You'll get used to how things work soon enough. In the meantime, take your lumps and keep writing. You'll do fine if you stick with it.


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Ezuma
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Hey, I wasn't really complaining about the critique I'm getting, it's just I'm not used to getting things judged that are less than about 5 pages.

I know I'm not that great of a writer, and I can't critique because I don't even know what I'm looking for, so I agree with what everyone has said about my story, especially you, HSO, but I'm still having a lot of trouble actually changing it.


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HSO
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Actually, you can read, right? So you can critique. Start critiquing immediately. This is the best way to improve your writing. No doubt about it. Critique other stories posted here. Dive right in. Now!

Will you say silly things in your crits? Yes. Probably. But that's okay. Because, again, you're learning.

Short anecdote: When I first came here a year ago, I got hammered every time I put a story up. I still get hammered now. Recently, I sent out a piece for critique to my private crit group. The unanimous consensus was that my main characters were "self-absorbed wankers." No big deal, really. Except that I sent them a personal memoir of a trip to Australia with my wife. Suppose I need to address that, eh?


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Ahavah
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Ezuma, I'm sorry if some of my comments bothered you. As HSO said, it's only one opinion. My point is, if the beginning doesn't draw me in and interest me, I won't read 5 or 10 pages down the road to find out what's the cool premise that the story is about.

Of course, ideally your book would have a blurb on the back to tell me "This is a contemporary fantasy. Read along and see how it works." Then again, so often the backs have 'advertising' from other authors or such nonsense, which means nothing to me personally. I don't go on other people's opinions and I don't randomly select books. I WILL open a book to the first page and read to decide if it's interesting enough to invest time and money into. If it's not, I'm not going to say, "Well maybe the next chapter's better." I'll say, "Well maybe this other book's better."

The hook is one of the most important keys to getting readers. As others have mentioned, editors don't even deign to go past the very first page. Which is why we are limited to 13 lines, and why (ideally) those 13 lines should kick butt. And have some significance on the story as a whole. The first 13 lines should not be wasted with triviality and backstory. Do that on page 5, if you have to. It's not that I feel the whole story should be handed on a silver platter--just enough to interest me into sampling the whole meal.

[This message has been edited by Ahavah (edited June 16, 2005).]


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Ahavah
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I also struggled with how to critique when I came here. I've been on writer's forums before, but they were 'beginners' all the way. This forum has so many well-read and well-spoken people that I wanted to be sure that my comments were helpful. (Apparently that still needs some work, but as HSO said, they are only suggestions...) I found the section here titled "Ways to Critique" to be INVALUABLE. It also helped me become more mindful as I'm writing, so that I spot when problems come up. I'd definitely take the time to read through those threads. It's a godsend.
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bladeofwords
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Yes, everybody gets hammered. All the time. A lot. It's healthy.

I think they're right about critiquing being good for you, even if you don't think you can do it. Start with comments like, "this doesn't work for me" when things don't work for you. It's as simple as that. Then when you get better you can get more specific.

Two particular anecdotes that I thought of because of HSO:

I did flash for the first time two weeks ago, and I got ripped apart. I think out of about ten responses I only got one positive comment (and that was about a single line), but I learned a lot. I think that sometimes getting shredded is much better than a 'good' critique.

I once submitted a story about a boy who gets driven nuts by his school and eventually commits suicide. The critiques I got back called the boy whiny, self-absorbed, and unwilling to face his problems. I modeled that boy after myself. Ouch.


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djvdakota
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Ezuma, one of the big reasons that that first thirteen lines is so important is that an acquisition editor who has a slush pile a mile high is only going to give you that first thirteen lines to keep them interested.

The reason most of us are here at Hatrack is to learn enough that we can eventually get published. Not just for fun. Not just as a hobby. Not just to make up stories for our buddies. This is serious business.

So one of the things we learn is that those first thirteen lines are crucial to making a sale. The acquisition editor won't give a crap how great the story is two or three pages in. He won't give you the opportunity to take so long to get around to telling him what the story is about. He wants to know a few things right up front--in that first thirteen lines. Like if you can write well. Like if you can engage a reader. If you don't do that in the first thirteen pages, you're sunk. No sale.


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Beth
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I think a lot of times when someone asks what the story's about, it's not because there's an expectation that the entire story be revealed in the opening paragraph, but because often, if a beginning is not engaging, it's because the author has started in the wrong place. It's extremely common for authors (all authors, not just beginners) to sort of fumble around explaining background information for a few pages before they get to the real story. It's also really common for authors to jump into the story too late, flinging a lot of action around before they've really introduced the characters and given the reader a reason to care about whatever it is the character is doing.

Asking what the story is about can help identify a good starting place for the story.

At the same time, I think the opening paragraph does need to do a lot to tell you what kind of story it is - if I can't tell from your opening paragraph whether you're writing, say, a modern serial killer thriller or a medieval fantasy epic, you are probably on the wrong track with your beginning.


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pixydust
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I agree with Beth. Sometimes we just start the story in the wrong place. Maybe you need to jump ahead a bit, or pull back. That's why these threads are so great. They help--force--us to see into the story. To dig deeper. Not just watch a video in our head.

And I second HSO, if you can read then you have an opinion. It may not always be right, but it's helpful to try. Don't sell yourself short.


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kkmmaacc
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Hi! I don't think I wrote any crits for you, but here's my take on the point you're bringing up:

I think when people ask those sort of questions in a crit they aren't actually asking about the story you want to tell. For example, you may know that the reason the hero did quirky thing X in the opening is that he has psionic abilities that he hasn't yet discovered, and that those abilities are trying to make themselves felt -- these abilities will later enable him to defeat the dreaded Snake Lord. However, a crit that asks why he did X is not actually asking for all that. It's not a "big why" but a "little why". A reasonable explanation at this point might be that he has no idea why he did that, or that he was acting on a hunch. That's just enough information to stop the reader from speculating. We know, for example, that he is not from an alternate reality where thing X is not considered quirky, that he is not doing it on purpose as part of a trap he is setting up, and that he is not trying to pull a joke on someone.

So, I guess my thought on the matter is that if you get WHY questions, it may mean that your foreshadowing of important plot elements is too mysterious. Try to make them make sense for the short term.

-K.


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wbriggs
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Getting critiqued certainly is no fun.

When I wrote "what's your story about?" it was rhetorical -- I was suggesting a starting point. But usually what I say in critiques is my reaction in the moment. The readers' in-the-moment reactions are _exactly_ what I want from critiques.

I may also ask what's going on (rhetorically -- I want the story to tell me), if I'm confused or if the author is keeping secrets from me the POV character knows and is thinking about. But in your case, I just wasn't interested (being bored studying -- I do enough of that in real life!) and was hoping you could start the story with some kind of more powerful hook.

Example, off the top of my head:

Inga could hear her own breathing, raspy and harsh, but she didn't dare stop running. Whatever it was . . . she could hear it, meowling, and the sight of its fangs was still in her memory, making her heart beat. They might be the last thing she saw, if she couldn't get to the compound.

There's a lot we don't know here, but we know enough for a hook, I think.


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Meenie
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I agree with Beth also that when a writer starts a story he often doesn't quite know where it's REALLY going to start yet.
I think that's one important thing about telling us what you're submitting for crit.
ie: is it something new you're throwing out there? Or is it a novel that you've been working on for a year and want some feedback on? Makes a big difference!
And, as a critter, I think it should make a big differenc to me as I read those 13 lines.
If it's something that you've pretty much completed and what to brush up before submitting it to an editor, then those 13 lines should be pretty tight.
If it's something new that you've just started, it will probably be a lot rougher!
(The only thing I don't tolerate well in a rough draft is poor spelling. Nothing should ever be submitted to a writing group without a good once over for spelling and grammer!)
Meenie

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