posted
The beginning of my latest short. Any feedback is appreciated.
***
Harry King’s daughter wasn’t looking at the lovely park scenery. She wasn’t listening to the chatter of birds and squirrels or lying back on the manicured grass gazing at fluffy white clouds as they scuttled across a bluer-than-blue sky. She wasn’t skipping stones across the peaceful pond or returning admiring glances from passing young men. Lilah King was jacked-in to her MP3 player, blasting speed metal tunes through her brain to block out any stray thoughts as she glared into her handheld, cramming figures in preparation for the big meeting. She was only pacing the park for one reason. It was the last place anyone would look for her, and she could work in peace at last.
posted
This isn't bad, but I'm having a couple of thoughts...
Who is Harry King? Since we don't know who Harry King is, I don't quite understand why you introduce the only actual character in the story so far as his daughter. I kept thinking throughout the first part of the paragraph that he might have been an observer to this scene in the park, but by the end of the paragraph I was convinced that he wasn't there at all.
Nit: I think there needs to be a comma somewhere in that looong second sentence.
Ohhhh...I know what the thing was that really got me about this paragraph. It's her age. When you introduce a character as someone's daughter, unless I have more information I tend to think of that person as young. When you go on to talk about the activities she's not doing in the park I am confirmed in the belief that we were talking about a child. Then she's not gazing at young men and I get confused. That seems older than I first pictured her. When she's listening to loud music I start to think that maybe she's a teenager. Then she's preparing for a meeting...which goes to a grown woman.
Finally, preparing for a meeting wasn't quite where I thought this was going. She was specifically not doing all these ordinary things so I thought she was doing something you don't do every day...but preparing for a meeting? I hope we find out in the next paragraph that she's meeting someone pretty exciting.
That said, I do actually like the dramatic potential of describing what a person is not doing. I find it can be quite a useful artistic device.
posted
I get impatient with it (describing what someone *isn't* doing), though, and start to skip.
I think you could pack a lot more into this (info and attitude), in fewer words. As in: tell us her job ("Lilah King, CEO of Tiddlywinks Inc. ..."); tell us just a snippet of the park scenery, but from *her* POV -- give us her attitude. (You talked sneeringly of the scenery, but it seemed like it was narrator -- I want to be sure it's her thoughts.) If her father is relevant, you can tell us that, but I'll want to know as soon as you do why that's relevant.
I *think* I'm getting that she considers the scenery and the birds and squirrels to be meaningless fluff, and she's got *serious* work to do, and everybody's a bother. If that's true, that's a hook; she's an interesting character.
[This message has been edited by wbriggs (edited April 03, 2006).]
posted
Aside from the points Will and Christine made (which I echo on both counts), I found it odd that she would "blast speed metal tunes through her brain" in order to "work in peace."
posted
Saying what somebody isn't doing works if we have some idea of who the character is first. Then the contrast adds to the character. Example: Jimmy, a five-year-old, Texas-born kid, was sitting in class in a plain white desk. He wasn't reciting the abc's along with the other kids, though. Neither was he blah, blah, blah.
So we know something about jimmy (he's five, in class) so we got some expectations, but those expectations are shut down by the "what-he-isn't-doing" technique, and thus his character is dramatically changed.
At the begining of your piece, we know nothing about Harry King's daughter, so the fact that she isn't doing all that stuff just kinda stalls her actual character development. I knew there was something iffy with this intro and it took me a couple of reads to come up with this, but I think I'm right. I don't know, any one else agree?
The writing is solid, just the method seems...out of place.
posted
_____________ She wasn’t listening to the chatter of birds and squirrels or lying back on the manicured grass gazing at fluffy white clouds as they scuttled across a bluer-than-blue sky. She wasn’t skipping stones across the peaceful pond or returning admiring glances from passing young men. Lilah King was jacked-in to her MP3 player, blasting speed metal tunes through her brain to block out any stray thoughts as she glared into her handheld, cramming figures in preparation for the big meeting. ___________________________ Lilah was too busy to enjoy the tranquilty. She was in fact, a stark contrast to the world around her. Jacked into her MP3 player, she blasted speed metal tunes through her brain as she glared at her handheld. She was only pacing the park for one reason. It was the last place anyone would look for her and she could better prepare for the big meeting in peace.
I like it, it's fast -paced, with an up to the second build up of something very important. But the wording through me off. I rewrote it just to understand what you were saying.
posted
Introducing her as Harry's daughter makes me think that her role as daughter is going to be extremely significant. I kinda liked the list of things she was not doing. It set the scene and then contrasted her behavior. The mp3 as a way to prepare works for me because I would do that, but my boss is always confused and annoyed by my music so that is fine with me.
Posts: 303 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
First off, let me thank everyone for their great comments!
Secondly, I would like to warn you that I am going to address your questions/comments in order, as thoroughly as possible. Not really to be contrary, but simply because it's how I do!
So here goes!
Christine:
To reassure you, the fact that she is Harry King's daughter is *very* important to the story. I think I used the intro like that to express how *she* sees herself more as Harry King's daughter and less as Lilah. I have a terrible habit of inferring things like that to let the reader decipher, instead of stating it outright.
As to your nit- I tried it with a comma, and it didn't have the right feel. Thanks for picking up on it, though.
Her age is intended to be slightly ambiguous. As you read further you discover she has a brother who is just entering college and her father is in his late fifties to early sixties.
Don't worry about the meeting...she is most certainly going to have an *extraordinary* meeting.
Aaand...thank you!
wbriggs:
Not a whole lot I can say to this comment, other than apoligize for not being able to draw you in well.
As for her father's relevance, I think the comment I made above to Christine should explain a bit why I chose this introduction.
Your last comment is dead-on.
krazykiter:
Often when I write or need to concentrate on my work, I put on headphones and crank up the volume on some loud, raucous music that I don't give a fig about. I can't listen to music I like, because I have a tendency to become absorbed in the music, instead of my writing. The louder the music is, the less I pay attention to it.
It should be the opposite way, but it isn't. I guess I just gave her a personal trait of my own.
AndrewStein:
I feel that I disagree with your comments in general on that. To me, telling what she *isn't* doing *is* character development. It sets her apart from any average young woman walking through a park.
I would guess you are uncomfortable with the voice here because it is unconventional. But thanks for your comment!
Susannahj4:
Those are solid rewrites, and I appreciate you taking the time and effort to rework them so nicely. Unfortunately, the voice of the piece is lost in translation, and you totally lose the necessity of her father.
I'm sorry I lost you in the wording, but thanks for commenting!
sholar:
It is. Thank you. That was put succinctly. Aaaand...it's nice to know someone else uses the same method of concentration!
Survivor:
*grins* How could I betray you? I don't even know you? *laughs*
posted
Po: I usually wouldn't make this comment, but since your responses to our critiques were made in friendly tone, I decided I'd go ahead and say this:
There are two respones to a critique: 1. Thank you 2. A clarifying question
Arguments are right out. You did not do that, but your explanations are not useful either. You see, if we were reading this in a magazine, or if we were editors considering whether or not to put your story in a magazine, you would not get to add these illuminating "This is what I meant by..." statments.
quote: To reassure you, the fact that she is Harry King's daughter is *very* important to the story. I think I used the intro like that to express how *she* sees herself more as Harry King's daughter and less as Lilah. I have a terrible habit of inferring things like that to let the reader decipher, instead of stating it outright.
This may be so but what does it say to you that so many people did not understand this point? In fact, many of us did not understand that the first paragraph was in Lilah's point of view at all. Keep in mind that we don't have your history with the story or its characters. This is why introductions are so tricky.
quote: Her age is intended to be slightly ambiguous. As you read further you discover she has a brother who is just entering college and her father is in his late fifties to early sixties.
Intentions are tricky things. You intended her age to be ambiguous and I'm sure you had a reason, but by pointing it out to you I'm telling you that there is also a cost -- confusion. I may even be willing to read past this point of confusion, but I may get fed up with it and not give you that chance to clear it up. Once again, I don't have your history with the story so the dramatic potential of leaving her age up in the air is completely lost on me. This is what I mean by not responding with explanations or arguments -- you get the story itself to communicate with me. What you get from the feedback is no concern of mine.
quote: Don't worry about the meeting...she is most certainly going to have an *extraordinary* meeting.
Once again, I don't know this NOW. As a hook, it failed entirely. I've been to meetings. They're not ineresting. Until you tell me she's meeting with the President of the United States, it's not going to be interesting or any kind of a hook. But going back to my earlier point, I wouldn't expect you to insert a note after the end of this paragraph saying "Don't worry, it's an interesting meeting!" Maybe if it was comedy.
Anyway, I hope I've made my point. Responding at all doesn't help you. And as frustrating as it is to hear things about your introduction that you know you're going to cover later, we don't mention them frivolously. They are of concern to us. You have to decide if they are of concern to you but responding to us doesn't make it better.
posted
There are a couple of "hooky" things that didn't quite hook me. The reference that the MC is someone's daughter. She has a meeting. Both ideas can be hooks- but didn't seem to be developed enough to be an actual hook. Both might be interesting, but nothing came along to make it more interesting. If Lilah has a conflict with being someone's daughter, or she has a conflict with the meeting- I didn't see it.
The first three sentences don't tell us what is going on. It tells us what isn't going on. I understand the reasoning behind the contrast, but it gave me nothing to latch onto.
The last two sentences are written in an "explanatory fashion".
As a "hook" it didn't seem to be much. However, you did paint a vivid picture of the park. You have the "hook element"- the meeting. There also seems to be undercurrents of other conflicts. All the pieces are there, just didn't quite gel for me.
posted
Po, as you've politely explained in response to other comments, you're planning to betray me. Therefore, I will decline to read further.
Okay, I'll repost the comments that got lost in the internet (well, my local ethernet ate them, big difference).
Basically, if this story centers around her relationship with her father, and the way in which she is not enjoying the park as opposed to the way she is using the park speaks to a major tension in that relationship, and we're going to find out more about that in the next page, then I'm willing to accept this opening as written.
However, the current opening left me with the impression that you are planning to play dirty tricks with information withholding and deliberately misleading the reader. I don't know exactly what those tricks will be, how could I? But since you've confirmed that this is exactly what you regard as clever writing, my fears are justified even if the story meets the criteria necessary to use this opening.
There are ways to convince the reader that you, as the writer, cannot have written the story other than how you wrote it. Those methods are necessary to making the reader accept a story that springs unpleasant surprises. But you're not using them. Therefore any surprises you try to spring will be patent betrayals of the contract you implicitly make with the audience by the act of claiming to be a writer.
posted
I was unaware that it was taboo to respond to the feedback comments. I was also under the impression that a discussion board was for exactly that: discussion.
I will not make that mistake again.
[This message has been edited by Po (edited April 05, 2006).]
quote:I was also under the impression that a discussion board was for exactly that: discussion.
Po, the board is for discussion, but Fragments & Feedback is a little different. If someone says X about your writing, and you aren't certain what they mean, you can ask them for clarification. Also, you can ask if a solution would resolve the concern they have.
If you have to clarify the story to the reader outside of the story, then something is "wrong" with the story. It is your job to understand the feedback, and take from it the pieces that are helpful to you. You won't use everything people offer, but you should try to understand it.
Hope that helps.
[This message has been edited by pjp (edited April 05, 2006).]
posted
Po, Christine went a little overboard. I agree with 80% or more of the things she says, but I almost never agree with how she says them
One thing she says that I will not dispute. You didn't start an argument. Yes, your explanations skirted the line, but they were on topic and you only provided what was requested (though you didn't take time to understand all the requests).
Another thing. You're obviously a talented writer. But so are most of the other people on this forum. Several of them are more talented than you. Don't play "I'm a misunderstood artist" with us, we're all misunderstood artists here. Christine is among the most misunderstood of us
Our goal on this forum is to move from being misunderstood artists to being understood artists. If you don't agree with that, then you're welcome to leave, but I urge you to give our theory of art a try. Believe me, you won't become mundane by hanging out with us, we're pretty strange here
posted
I think I'll stick around a while. Now that I'm through being a total newbie idiot (and I am through, I swear it! Feel free to flay me if I revert!), I can use this place as the valuable resource it is.
I also harbor hope that I could be a positive addition to this group.
posted
I don't think anyone was wanting you to go away. Take it as just gently keeping everyone in line. I have read some forums where no one does that and it can get scary.
Posts: 303 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
One thing to remember about questions asked by critiquers when they are giving critiques: those questions are there to let the author of the work know what might need to be answered in the text of the work.
They are not being asked because the critiquers want the author to satisfy their curiosity.
They are being asked so the author will know that those questions entered some readers' minds, and the author needs to know about them in case something needs to be fixed in the story.
This is why authors are discouraged from responding to critiques with more than "thank you" or a question about what the critiquer said.
If the author responds to the questions asked in the critique by answering them or explaining things here, then the author may feel there is no need to deal with them in the rewrite of the story.
And that might be a waste of good and useful feedback.
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