However.

Now I have a flash drive.

AAAAHHHAHAHAHAHAHA!

So anyway, here it is again. Comments on the begining, which I am taking a different aproach too, are fine, offers to read it all when complete are yet still better.

Naronin was aware he had a guest well before they knocked on his door. He may have come to this remote place, abadoned his life as a wizard living in a large city and left behind the mage-name Naronin, Who Walks in Twilight, but old habits die hard. As soon as he had taken possession of this cottage on the outskirts of a small village he’d set a warding to inform him when anyone or anything approached.
He was sitting in the garden when the knocking started, peacefully watching the sky and the forest as twilight fell. It had always been his favorite time. He mused upon the fact that each day both began and ended in twilight, the between state of eternal transition.
He didn’t want to answer the door. He didn’t want to speak to or deal with anyone.

Heres a different version

Naronin was aware he had a guest well before they knocked on his door. The warding he had set after taking possession of the cottage created tiny lights, like evening fireflies within his mind, when anyone or anything approached.
He may have abandoned his life as a wizard living in a large city and left behind the mage-name Naronin, Who Walks in Twilight, but old habits die hard.
He was sitting in the garden when the knocking started, peacefully watching the sky and the forest as twilight fell. It had always been his favorite time. He mused upon the fact that each day both began and ended in twilight, the between state of eternal transition.
He didn’t want to answer the door. He didn’t want to speak to or deal with anyone.

Version 3

Naronin was aware he had a guest well before they knocked on his door. He set a warding when he took possession of the cottage that created tiny lights, like evening fireflies within his mind, when anyone or anything approached.
He had abandoned his life as a wizard living in a large city and left behind the mage-name Naronin, Who Walks in Twilight, but old habits die hard.
He was sitting in the garden when the knocking started, peacefully watching the sky and the forest as twilight fell. He mused upon the fact that each day both began and ended in twilight, the between state of eternal transition.
The knocking continued. He didn’t want to answer the door. He didn’t want to speak to or deal with anyone.

Naronin was aware of his guest well before the man knocked on his door. He may have left behind the city and his mage-name, but old habits died hard. As soon as he had moved into this cottage just outside the village, he had set a warding. That spell now told him that someone - or something - approached.

... Then maybe get more on his mage-name and such into the second paragraph since both have do with twilight.

I find myself wondering, if I left out the character background info, how many people would say it needs background info :-)

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I'd agree. You're giving us his background, which may well be important. But you're not giving us the story, which surely relates to the visitor as well as to Naronin. You can give us the backstory in dialogue, or interpolated etween the dialogue, or even implicit within the dialogue, of Naronin and his unwanted guest, so why instead load us down with it up front while we wait for the story to begin?

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Yeah, I can see that. However, how many folks around here, and even supposed "experts" (successful writers, agents etc) talk about how story is supposed to be all about characters and there changes? I'm actually trying to go with that a bit more than I usually do in this piece, so I'm trying to establish Naronin's current state and the internal conflict he has, which then changes over the course of the story.

So while I can definitely agree that its waiting for the story to begin from one perspective, but from the perspective of others it is begining here and if I did it differently what some consider the story would be being put off. Am I making sense at all?

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I'd find it far more interesting to see the warding spell at work. What does it do exactly? Ring a bell? Give him a warm sensation in his right hand? Speak to him? Gather a tiny white cloud that follows him around like a nag until he acknowledges it and lifts the magic warding off intruders?

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I like this idea and it probably could be restructured to include such a description and mention of the warding and then go into the "he'd given up yadda yadda but old habbits die hard." I will explore that definitely.

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And, yeah, way too much uninteresting info. Interesting info I don't mind but you've missed that.

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Well, I missed it for you. But interesting is in the eye of the beholder. I bet that, for instance, Nicole and genevieve would find this very interesting, but you don't. Can't please everyone.

Thanks everybody for your comments so far. I'm not trying to be argumentative or "defensive", I just like to observe all these different tastes and reactions and how they interact...

He may have come to this remote place, abandoned his life as a wizard living in a large city and left behind the mage-name Naronin, Who Walks in Twilight, but old habits die hard.

In fact, you could skip that entire first paragraph. Get on to what you want to say about twilight.

More like –

Naronin loved twilight, the way each day began and ended with that soft eternal transition. He was sitting in his garden watching the forest fill with dark when (the warding interrupts him – and so on.

You could reveal him a wizard slowly as he reacts to the annoyance. You have lots of neat idea things like “But old habits die hard” and “He didn’t want to answer the door” – why? Aside from interrupting his mood, could we have another reason?

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In fact, you could skip that entire first paragraph. Get on to what you want to say about twilight.

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Like I said, I did that the first couple times and most people here didn't like it.

Likewise you say its "telling." But the thing is some people (including one of the primary editors I plan to send this too) like thoughts and emotions to be "told."

Like I said I have no desire to disparage your opinions. I'm just saying, theres people that have exactly the oposite taste/opinion. My style of writing from what I can tell doesn't really do it for you and thats totally fine, but not everyone reacts to things the same way or has the same expectations and priorities for story-parts.

Everybody isn't going to like everything anyone writes, and I'm not even all that convinced theres any sort of majority consensus...but I do find it very interesting observing and commenting upon those differences and patterns. Thanks for your thoughts.

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Get on to what you want to say about twilight.

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That's awesome, man. This is the way this story started last time it was posted for critique (or at least last time I remember it, 'cause I critiqued it at the time).

http://www.hatrack.com/forums/writers/forum/Forum11/HTML/003028.html

It's funny that with this story, both in this thread and the previous one, the issues readers are having (and the response of the author) are roughly the same. The problem that readers are having isn't what is being said, it's how it's being presented. You've shown growth as a writer, that's not being disputed, but the issue that readers are having is consistent.

The one thing that bothers me is the line, "It had always been his favorite time." This seems like an odd statement for someone who's called, "Naronin, Who Walks in Twilight". It feels like the first statement should be connected to his mage name or his nature somehow. Because it's not, it seems too obvious.

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It's funny that with this story, both in this thread and the previous one, the issues readers are having (and the response of the author) are roughly the same.

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Thats more or less my point. I did it one way. Some people didn't like it. I do it another way and different people don't like it and actually say to go back to the other way.

And thats why in the end its all basically just a matter of taste, and nothing anybody writes is going to appeal equally to all tastes or even at all.

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It's funny that with this story, both in this thread and the previous one, the issues readers are having (and the response of the author) are roughly the same. The problem that readers are having isn't what is being said, it's how it's being presented.

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Whats been said basically is that its too much expositition and/or that the information being conveyed isn't interesting (to those particular people.) So yeah it kinda is whats being said or when.

Edit: Yeah I re-read the old thread and I think I get what your saying a little better. I'm still rather fuzzy on the whole concept of "showing" thoughts though :-)

I'm assuming what your getting at is it should be "showing" or whatever, so I'm honestly curios how would you recomend "showing" in your definition the emotions and concepts being presented here? I'm not trying to be snide, I'm honestly curious.

Although as I mentioned I am writing this in mind of sending it to Beneath Ceasless Skies, the editor of which has actually reprimanded me in the past for trying to "show" emotion.

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This is the way you write.

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It's one of the ways.

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You're happy with the way you write. Simple as that.

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Well, I am more story-centered than craft centered versus most people here...and I am aware of the simple fact that ANY way ANYONE writes is going to fit some peoples tastes and not others.

Do you, again honest question here, really believe there are ways of writing that everyone or even some vast consensus majority are all going to find to their taste?

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No point in arguing against it, or observing it, or justifying it, or anything else.

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You do realize your doing at least one of those things right now, right? Not that I object. I'm very happy to hear, think about and discuss many different viewpoints, as long as its kept in mind that they are viewpoints and that the subjects at hand (creative writing and storytelling) are by nature about 98% subjective.

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I like the second version better. It is clearer and more focused.

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Hmmm interesting, given that I mostly added stuff (about the warding) and all I removed was the bit about the remote place. I think thats what did it, that line was more or less implied by the others.

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This does have a hook for me because I want to know why he doesn't want to deal with anyone. Does he already have a sense of trouble or is he just generally anti-social? Because this is where the story is starting, I am assuming that trouble is afoot.

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Yeah, thats more or less what I'm going for.

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The one thing that bothers me is the line, "It had always been his favorite time." This seems like an odd statement for someone who's called, "Naronin, Who Walks in Twilight". It feels like the first statement should be connected to his mage name or his nature somehow. Because it's not, it seems too obvious.

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That line is probably superflous. Riding the line between making readers strongly aware of something and really making it a strong part of the story/narrative while not being overly obvious or redundant is one of the things I'm working on currently with I hope some success. Thanks gen.

There's a lot of "helping" verbs. It's doing both something funky with the tense (talking about events that happened further in the past when telling a past tense story like the warding he had set) but mostly, it's just getting in the way.

Because that's an annoying kind of feedback to receive, I'm going to try to reword to illustrate one different way of approaching the same story. Some people HATE it when others rewrite their stuff. If you hate it, I apologize. Of course as with all feedback, feel free to take what works and leave the rest

Naroin knew he had a guest well before the knock. He set a wording after he took possession of the small, tidy cottage on the edge of the forest, and now tiny little lights flashed on and off in his mind, telling him about the guest. While he had abandoned much of his life as a wizard in the city, along with the mage-name Naronin, Who Walks in Twilight, some habits die hard.
The knocking started as he sat in the garden. He watched the sky and the forest, peaceful as twilight fell. This was always his favorite time (Sidenote: If you use "had" as with your original text, it seems to indicate past - it used to be his favorite time - but wasn't any longer. I don't think that's what you intended.) - the way day both began and ended in twilight, that between state of eternal transition.
The knocking annoyed him (or some other emotion). He didn't want to answer the door or deal with any wandering minstrels or lost little girls (this could be a place to introduce more of the WHY he doesn't want to be bothered...or more ability to characterize the kind of forest he's in. Is it an enchanted forest? A dark forest? A rainforest? You can do this by introducing the types of people/things that Naronin thinks might be at his door.)

Basically I'm writing with only a very thin line between the narration and Naronin's thoughts, if any.

And thanks by the way

I think you're rushing to tell us who Naronin is and the reader ends up with his nose being rubbed in the "Who Walks in Twilight" bit. Also, "Who Walks in Twilight" just echoes "Who Walks Behind the Rows" in my mind's ear.

I'm not saying info and background CAN'T be vital, but right here you haven't caught the right what? Tone? Right bit of info?

I want to know why he retired, and who this someone is. That is what will make me read on, so I would suggest focusing on them.

Naronin was aware he had a guest well before they knocked on his door. He set a warding when he took possession of the cottage that created tiny lights, like evening fireflies within his mind, when anyone or anything approached. THOUGH he had abandoned his life as a wizard living in a large city, LEAVING behind the mage-name Naronin, Who Walks in Twilight, old habits die hard. (I think it flows better this way. Cuts the sentences up).
He didn’t want to answer the door. He didn’t want to speak to or deal with anyone. (Moved to show HOW he reacts.(Actually, can you SHOW him not wanting to answer the door?) Why doesn't he want to? Can you say "He was tired of villagers asking for blah blah blah." "He feared something from his past?" Or is it he really was just relaxing and didn't want to be disturbed? Or whatnot. Might be a good place to put such a comment...)

He was sitting in the garden when the knocking started, peacefully watching the sky and the forest as twilight fell. He mused upon the fact that each day both began and ended in twilight, the between state of eternal transition.
The knocking continued. (If you want him to be annoyed at a pleasant evening interrupted, you could use this to show him ignoring the knock:

"He ignored the knock and leaned back to look at the sky. He mused upon the fact that...

This way, you get to explain his perspective, but it moves from telling (he was watching) to showing (he ignores the knock by focusing on something else.))

Either way, I like it. Let me have a read when it is done:

Not -- He had abandoned his life as a wizard living in a large city and left behind the mage-name Naronin, Who Walks in Twilight, but old habits die hard.

Rather -- He had abandoned his life as a wizard living in a large city, but old habits die hard.

That feels more story-like and less info dumpish. At least, it does to me.

Actually, rereading this, you show him using magic so perhaps drop the wizard bit. He KNOWS he's a wizard in his POV. The story stuff is simply --

He thought he had abandoned life in a large city, but old habits die hard.