posted
While I realize that this is probably one of the most inane questions to ask, mine would really have to be what leaps out of the slush pile for this particular editor? How do they define great fiction-- doesn't take anyone any length of time perusing these boards to find a plethora of answers. Heck, on one topic, we even debated whether it was polished prose or exceptional plotting that kept you glued to the page! So, as a newbie who hopes to make it one day, I'm curious as to what really hooks the editor. (Oh! And also the reverse-- what are some of the big turn offs?)
On a related note, I wonder what editors think of the slush pile. With what sort of attitude and process to they attack it in their search for literary treasure?
Also, what is the process that happens after your literary gem gets picked out of the slush pile and before you see it in glorious print?
Hmm… surely there are other burning questions…
[This message has been edited by GZ (edited August 03, 2002).]
posted
Actually, you may want to address the issue of presentation as well - spacing, margins, font, no (C) notice, boxing your mss, etc. Simple matters that if not adhered to, declare "amateur!".
quote:On a related note, I wonder what editors think of the slush pile. With what sort of attitude and process to they attack it in their search for literary treasure?
Having done some work as a fiction editor, and having talked to other editors, I think I can safely say that in the big professional magazines, they tend to look at the slush pile with caution and a little distaste.
Editors prefer getting manuscripts from writers they already know and can rely on, and work from those writers doesn't go into the slush pile.
Editors only go to the slush pile with the hope that there might be another great writer hidden therein, but realizing that it will be like finding a needle in a haystack (or worse, and one reason they call it a slush pile, like finding a diamond in a very deep mud--or worse--puddle).
Editors try to keep up on slush because if they don't, it can overwhelm them. They try to go through it very quickly, looking for any reason to reject a story, reading the first page if there aren't any obvious reasons to reject, grimacing as they realize that the first page is good and they'll have to keep reading, sighing if they get to the end and still are not able to buy the story (there really are some rejections that they send which they hope encourage the writer--the ones that say "please try us again" are among that group).
I've rejected stories that were great, but they weren't right for the magazine I was acquiring for. Those are frustrating to send rejections on.
And I've seen certain return addresses on envelopes and resisted the urge to shudder because I know I will find a completely unreadable manuscript inside, and there is no way I would have time or energy to tell the writer they need to go back to school or attend a workshop or get someone to show them how to tell a story. (Which is why I am doing this kind of thing now--in hopes that I can be of help.)
By the way, if an editor receives more than one good, but not quite right, story from the same writer, the editor may begin to pull that writer's envelopes from the slush pile and open them along with the envelopes from writers the editor already knows and relies on. The editor may do this because the editor has hopes for that writer and wants to see a story that is good and right for the magazine.
So if you get encouraging rejections (with personal comments or "try us again" on them), keep sending stuff to that editor. But send your best stuff, not just any old thing just to be sending something.
[This message has been edited by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (edited August 07, 2002).]
posted
Thanks for that info on the slush, Kathleen. Pretty much what I thought.
What exactly constitutes a personal comment? Is it something that specifically addresses a particular story issue/indicates they read the whole thing, or just anything beyond “Thank you for sending ‘XYZ.’ Doesn’t work. Thanks again and good luck,” considered personal? What about the general comments that show up right before the “Doesn’t work” part, that while general, seem story related?
Just looking for ways to overanalyze those letters… Cryptic little things…
posted
Kathleen, I don't know whether to be upset or thnakful for the encouragement. I'm still drudging through my novel (over 50,000 words now the most I've ever written) and I plan on actually getting off my ass and submitting this one. I'm trying really hard not to get my hopes up, but I can't be too far down on myself because not only wil I not send the submission off I won't bother to finish it. Wow, I guess I really have to work on that first page than and make sure the rest of the pages are just as good.
posted
Since most rejections are preprinted form letters, a personal comment is anything the editor writes by hand on the rejection letter.
Of course, if you get a rejection letter that isn't a preprinted form letter, and is obviously written by the editor especially in response to your story (though typed), that's also considered personal comment. Most writers don't get rejection letters like that.
John, probably the main rationale behind the idea that the beginning has got to be great is that many, if not all, prospective readers use the beginning of a story to help them decide whether to buy and read stories. Of course, the rest of the story has to keep the promise of the beginning, or the reader may throw the story across the room in disgust.
So, yeah. It all has to be great. But you knew that already.
posted
On the first novel I ever submitted every rejection I got was a form letter. Some were cleverly disguised to seem like personal letters. But after I got together with a writer friend who wrote the same genre, and subed to the same places we discovered that they were form letters because we got the same response.
With my latest novel, I have been getting more personal responses than form letters.
Things like, while very impressed with your writing, and with your idea, I do not think I have the resources to place this; I have no interests in this sort of SciFi, but you may want to try so and so; unfortunately I my client list is full right now--I know I am going to be sorry I did not make room for this and no doubt you will prove me right.
I have gotten scribbled notes, no thanks; NO; not right now; client list full---all scribbled on my query letter, even some I could not read, but the no was clear enough.
I’ve gotten personal negative as well--- this stuff no longer sells well; no one will be interested in this stuff.
And the rare—your manuscript looks promising, please send complete manuscript to; I am very much interested in reading more of your work please send 75 pages and detailed synop to --- we will get back to you within 90 days; Yes, I would like to see more please send first 3 chapters and synop; Your proposal shows promise please send complete manuscript to---be sure to mark your package requested material. Expect and answer in as little as 3 weeks, longer if we require more than one reading.
The odds are great that you will get a form rejection, but it can be done. Stick to it! Persistence pays off in this business.
I know after five novels this one is generating a lot of interest—about 1 positive (please send more)to every 7 rejections.
posted
Shawn, it sounds like positive things are happening with this fifth novel. I'd like to hear about what happens after you send the requested pages back. I was also wondering about the previous 4 books. Have you given them up completely or have you attempted to revise them according to the suggestions given?
posted
No I have not given up on the first four. But, they need work. An editor that works at DAW suggested I divide the first into three or even four books. I am slowly working on that. It is told in all knowing POV. I love that story and the POV but I am going to change it to limited third or maybe even first person. The others are limited third but too long for a first book.
On this board and others there is always a current of "good writing sells no matter what"
I used to agree.
But some things these five books have taught me are;
One, no matter what, or how good the book, the writing and the grammar, you will get rejections---heaps of the darned things. If you can put on a thick hide (buffalo would be good) do it before you send out that first query.
Two, there are rules about first books. Spoken ones, written ones, and those simply known by looking at authors break out novels. Look at King’s first, Sue Grafton’s, Tony Hillerman’s, Ann Rice, --I can go on and on. But they all have one thing in common. They followed a set of rules.
They were short---70,000 to 90,000 words. They used a known POV style. And so on, I have posted the suggested rules before so I won’t again I don’t want to start the huge debate I have before with it. This is what I have seen with my own work and what I have learned, it may be different for you.
Three, when they say you have to know the rules before you break them—well I now take that to mean that if you haven’t written using the rules then you better do it at least once before you write the great American novel against the rules.
How do I know this? No I don’t have a novel published yet. But with my first four books I garnered heaps of rejections, form letter after form letter. Most didn’t even bother to sign a name at the bottom. I got a few personal comments from publishers (most of these editors I knew in some form or another through the company I worked for in Germany)(I think they were just being nice in difference to my boss) I think I have 70 + rejections on the first book, not as many on the others.
Then came the day I read about these “rules” for a first book. An article in Writers Digest taken from a book about first novels. After all those rejections, I figured it couldn’t hurt to use those guidelines for first novels and see if it made a difference.
I have mostly queried agents on this one, with the exception of DAW, (they sent a note with my last work that said if I had a shorter project they would be interested in seeing it). While I have a heap of rejections for this novel I also have a large stack of “I would like to see more”.
Some I decided not to pursue any further, research led me to believe they would not be a good agent. A few I sent partials or complete manuscripts too, and I turned two down for representation. Am I nuts? No. When I asked who they intended to contact, how they would go about presenting the manuscript, I got vague answers. When I told one I would like to contact someone they represented----she got nasty with me and said they didn’t give out client names. I said no thanks. And there were the few charging ones, while some of these had sales records---I won’t go that route.
Right now, three agencies have partials of the manuscript. One has had it for 12 weeks, one 10 weeks, and one 8 weeks, DAW has had the manuscript 3 weeks. I am still waiting to hear from them.
The last, the 8-week one, is the only one that gave me a time limit—I would hear within 90 days. They requested 75 pages and a detailed synop and also said they would decide on this much if they would rep me. Makes that synop very important.
So the experience has led me to think that if you don’t follow the guides for a first novel you might as well resign yourself to the rejection pile. IMHO
Shawn
[This message has been edited by srhowen (edited August 09, 2002).]
posted
I am surprised that you submitted to more than one at a time. One editor told me that anything that is a "simultaneous submission" doesn't get read. On the other hand, a paragraph in the Writer's Digest Newsletter states that some see that as a way for greater exposure for the writer. Could that be a factor in some of the rejections you received?
As for your first 4 books, you seem to be satisfied with them - but have you considered having friends read them with a sheet of questions, such as Kathleen posted under the critiquing guidelines? (Feb 02) The written responses you get will be invaluable.
posted
I do have a large circle of critique "friends". And I depend on the other two editors I work with at Wild Child as well, for opinions ect.
As to "simultaneous submissions", Query letters, that 0ne or Two page letter you send out, is just that-it asks if they are interested in seeing more of the project.
Think about it, how long would it take to market a book if you only sent one at a time? You will get rejections, many of them, and that does not mean something is wrong with the project.
I have sent our batches of 20-30 queries at a time on this latest one. The "simultaneous submission" rule applies to partials or full manuscripts, not query letters.
In all cases you must let them know others are looking. In the case of the three I have out, all three know others are looking. The one agency even states that they realize authors will have more than one person looking, all they ask is to be informed if you accept representation from someone else. If you look through the Writers Market, you will find that very few say “no simultaneous submissions” anymore.
posted
I forgot about your contacts. I have very little experience in this publishing maze. I was questioning because I was submitting to one publisher at a time when I was encouraged to send out mulitiple submissions. The last time, I planned to send it out to only one publisher, but at the last minute added that it was a multiple submission. Several weeks later, I received a phone call from the editor asking if it was a multiple submission or not. Fortunately, while I had noted that on the letter it was, I indeed had only sent it to them. She told me that their policy was to automatically reject any multiple submissions. This, by the way, was not noted in the summaries I had read in 'Writer's Market'. Yesterday I received a newsletter from Writer's Digest in which the issue was addressed. In it, Maria Witte, associate editor of Writer's Digest, stated that some agents and publishing companies "frown" on the practice of multiple submissions; while others don't mind. She does say manuscript, so perhaps it doesn't apply to simple queries. As I said, I am new to this maze of publishing and have much to learn. So much of what I see seems to be ontradictory. For instance, your comment about the length of first novels: it seems reasonable that they not be 100,000 words or longer - but then, look at the first book of the Harry Potter series; look at Grisham's work. How often do you see short Fantasy books? It seems to be a rule, but one that is often broken.
|
posted
I've always thought queries were only letters with, hopefully, a hook for the editor to ask to see the book. However, in OSC's "How to Write Science Fiction & Fantasy," he advises sending the first couple chapters, an outline and a one-page synopsis with a cover letter for what he calls the "query parcel."
I looked at the date of the book -- 1990 -- and wondered if he'd say the same thing today and whether an unknown author should attempt such a thing. It seems to me that even with the supposedly implied message that you are querying and not submitting your novel by including the sentence: "'Would you like me to send the complete manuscript?'", this is too much like a submission and risks annoying the editors. (If it's not, let us know.)
My understanding is that a query is a letter, the only enclosures with it being tearsheets from other publications to showcase your writing skills, while a submission involves sample chapters, synopses, etc.
posted
I thought that simultaneous submission was only in regard to sending out the full manuscript. You could query (in letter + synopsis + sample chapter form and related varients) as much as you wanted.
As I’ve been researching this topic of querys/submissions/partials/etc. I’ve gotten the impression that what they want as a query seems highly dependent on the publisher. It’s been a while since I looked at the websites but I remember it varied from letter and synopsis, to letter, synopsis and first three chapters, to one that wanted to see the whole thing. I didn’t look at too many agent sites but I’d almost bet they have the same variation.
So I’m starting to wonder (and worry) about any blanket “This is the way to query” statement. And I had the same question about the advice in How to Write Fantasy and Science Fiction since the info is 10+ years old and things may have changed by now. Even the Writer’s Digest book on this topic seemed very blanket in its advice, and a few things seemed to disagree with what I’d read elsewhere. Writer’s digest said that proportional fonts such as Times New Roman was fine, while the articles at SFWA said always use a monospaced type like Courier.
I would hate to do the wrong thing, and have the material sent to the garbage/rejection land because of how it was presented (as opposed to the writing itself).
I like the setup for short stories. Put the whole thing in the envelope, add another SASE and a short cover letter, and mail that puppy! No agent required. If only this novel business was so straightforward… probably has to do with the reading time and the monetary investment a novel requires of the publisher…hmmm….
[This message has been edited by GZ (edited August 10, 2002).]
posted
Hmmm, I thought I did say that queries were not part of the simultaneous submission. Most queries are one or two pages. That is the standard. BUT--if the guidelines call for a synopsis, or chapters ect., then that is what that editor or agent wants. In any case follow the guidelines.
You can't go wrong though with a simple professional query letter.
On the font issue. Most of my submissions were in Times New Roman. Many guides called for “any dark font”. More recently, as I have sent for, e-mailed for, and even called for, submission guidelines, I have found that they want the mono spaced courier. I also do what I can to check to make sure the agent or editor is still with the agency I am querying.
And I will admit, that while I am a firm believer in rules for a first novel---I do not follow the query rules to the letter. Query letters are hard to write, there is no doubt about it so I use an outline form. (This is the one I have gotten a good response to, btw) Example below.
Dear Agent or editor, (use their name)
start with a short paragraph about where you found them, add a compliment and a why you think they might want your bookI found you agency listing at Publisher’s Market Place, and visited your web site. Both your agency and your web site have the professionalism I have found lacking elsewhere. At Publisher’s Market Place, I noted your sale of the novel “BREED”, by Owl Goingback to Signet Books and thought you might be interested in representing my current work. Below, please find the details of my novel, "MEDICINE MAN". If interested, sample chapters, detailed and expanded synopsis, or complete manuscript are ready to be printed and mailed. TITLE: "MEDICINE MAN" PLOT: This should be a one line description of your novel. GENRE: Novel, Native American Mysticism with time travel. WORD COUNT: About 91,000 words---finished EXTRA INFO: Has the story won an award? Also add a comparison to other books so they know what market you think would attract the book. DESCRIPTION/SHORT SYNOPSIS: Just a couple short paragraphs here. AUTHOR BIO/PREVIOUS PUBLICATIONS: Obvious what goes here. CONTACT INFO: Include, e-mail, fax (if you have one), and day and night phone numbers.
Close with a polite “Thank you for your time and consideration. Then don’t forget to sign it.
Unconventional yes. Very much so. But, it has worked well for me, took the pressure off of writing the dang thing, and even some agents who turned me down because they had a full client list complimented the format of my query, “well organized”, “have not seen a better written query” ect. It does give them all the info they need right there, easy to find.
And I got the idea from some agents that use a form for you to do an e-query with. They often have blanks to fill in titled the same way. <shrug>
The important thing in a query is to give them the info they want. As above. Then the rest is dependant on their guidelines. Shawn
posted
This is a touch off-topic, but that was so on the nose that I had a quick question I think would go well here. I'm trying to find a decent cover letter for short-story submissions. Do you have any "outlines" for those?? Posts: 1621 | Registered: Apr 2002
|
posted
Shawn-- would you please post a link to your post on "guidelines" for first novels, so I can read it? Or if not that, reccommend how I can find your sources? I'm very interested to read about this formula.
posted
For a first book the word count should be (recommended) between 70,000-- 90,000 words. Closer to the 70,000 mark is better. Think in terms of about 2,500 words per chapter and 3 to 4 scenes per chapter. Does that move fast? You bet it does. The article is by William Hutchenson and can be found in the February 2001 issue of Writers Digest Magazine---10 steps to planning your second draft.
You should be able to find it at your local library, or go to Writersdigest.com and look in the back issues.
If you can't find it e-mail me and I will give you all ten steps. I hope it isn't against copyright to do that.
As to a good outline for a short story sub, I use the same one. I assure the editor I have read their magazine and even name a story that may be simular to mine in feel. Instead of a synop, I use a one pargraph hook--open ended since the idea is to get them to read the short story in the same package.
posted
I'd like to point out that, technically, there is a difference between "simultaneous" submissions and "multiple" submissions, though people in the writing business don't always distinguish between them.
If you want to be exactly clear and correct, use "simultaneous" (which means "same time") when you send the same submission at the same time to different places.
Use "multiple" (which means many) when you send different submissions at the same time to the same place.
Some publishers and publications will look at simultaneous submissions, but you must tell them that they are simultaneous (that you are sending the material to other publishers and publications at the same time).
Some publishers and publications don't like multiple submissions (certain anthologies, for example) because they don't want to to flood them when a bunch of your stories--so your stories aren't competing with each other for a slot in the anthology. They want you to wait until one submission comes back before you send them another one.
posted
Hello! I am new to these boards and look forward to getting to know all of you.
You folks certainly caught my attention, regarding the advice to limit books to 70-90K. The novel I am currently peddling is a whopping 190K in length. Now, I am rethinking...perhaps I should split the novel into two or even three separate books. It is a modern fantasy and these do tend to be large, but I would hate to be rejected on the basis of word length alone. Opinions?
posted
I'd hate to sound like the inexperienced amateur (though I am ) but exactly what are the guides to a first novel? As I have yet to complete my first, I think these would be pretty helpful.
posted
I have absolutely nothing to add here (I could go into my dislike of formulae, but I don't think everyone wants to hear that again). I'm just going to say thanks to all the luvverly people giving out the nice advice. It's very helpful. JK
Posts: 503 | Registered: Sep 2000
|
posted
I did say it might not work for everyone--LOL JK. But it worked for the writer of the article and it seems to work for a great many breakout books. (Sadly, even bad ones)
Chris, look to my post above. I listed where to find the article.
Too long? 190K I would say yes. I have tried to explain why many times but an agent said it best—Andrew Zach, of the The Zack Company, explained it this way---
quote: A first genre novel, e.g., science fiction or fantasy, over 120,000 words is highly unlikely to sell. They are simply too expensive to produce (i.e., for paper, printing and binding) for publishers to risk spending the money on. Also, since wholesalers tend to buy by rack pockets or shelf spots, they are unlikely to buy more copies than will fit in one pocket or shelf spot. Hence, if your book is 150,000 words and only three copies will fit, they will only order three copies. But if your book is 100,000 words and five copies will fit, they will order five copies. Believe it or not, publishers consider this stuff when deciding to buy your book.
You can visit Zack’s web site at-- http://www.zackcompany.com/ Take a look at his client list. I’ll take his word for it. Shawn
posted
Thanks...that actually makes a lot of sense. Here is a follow-up question. I have already sent out a few query letters to agents (only nine), but they had the word count. I have received three rejections so far, with no specifics (aw, baby's first rejections, ain't that cute?) Anyway, if I subdivide the book as planned, can/should I resubmit the queries to the same agents, or did I already shoot those opportunities to hell?
quote:I have already sent out a few query letters to agents (only nine), but they had the word count. I have received three rejections so far, with no specifics (aw, baby's first rejections, ain't that cute?) Anyway, if I subdivide the book as planned, can/should I resubmit the queries to the same agents, or did I already shoot those opportunities to hell?
On the one hand, Hildy, the agents probably know they would have to tell you to subdivide the books, and they may not have been interested in the books any way.
On the other hand, you could still send your new query to them, saying that you have decided to subdivide the books and asking if they'd be interested in seeing the first one or a partial thereof.
My feeling is that it can't hurt, and it may indicate that you are someone who is willing to work with the market.
Printer-friendly view of this topic
Names and words are my archilles heel.
