posted
Ok here's the scoop, I am working between "chapters," if you will, of a book and it is very important for me to skip ahead 20 years for the rest of the story. No this isn't any kind of epilogue, this is merely the majority of teh story.
Now, I don't believe in saying, "twenty-years later," or tacking on, "...and there he stayed for twenty-years," or some such. It seems too sloppy.
Presently, I have a scene that ties together the sections of the book and it is only composed of dialogue. brief, brief dialogue. At on point the characters, who are unclear as there is no tag, says the others name. The next thing that happens is that....grr I can't describe it so I'll show you a similar exmaple, "....Yes, yes I agree with you Alexander, but.." "My name is Archimdedes!" "Oh, right, sorry. It's just that no-one within the order is around and..." "And nothing. Alexander is another person, he died almost twenty years ago."
Ok the background is this, The character "Archimedes is Alexander, but he has since changed and disowned his name. The reader doesn't know that. I presum ethe line is strong enough to suggest that. However, and bringing me back to my question, is it also strong enough for a reader to catch that 20 years have passed?
Keeping in mind that the reader with soon change POV and see things that are all new and there won't be any other indication that time has passed until much later.
posted
Curious too...have similiar situation. At the moment I do say fifty years, well cycles, later. I know that many successful books have used this technique. They have also put the date and place at the top of the chapter. So like, "England, 1882" and the next chapter may be labelled, "France, 1890"
Posts: 3567 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
Have you thought of using the fact that the character looks twenty years older? So long aas you tie Archimdedes and Alexander together as one person, description should be enough to convey the passage of time. Of course if your character is immortal then you would have to be more subtle, and show how the surroundings have changed.
Posts: 575 | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
I'm not sure if the character does look twenty years older...I might be thinking of a different work.
I can't give you any solid advice here, since I don't know the structure of the story.
But you can often bring in events that happen far prior to the beginning of the story, if they have any importance to the plot and characters. I'm not as sure about jumping forwards twenty years.
The reason saying, "twenty-years later," or tacking on, "...and there he stayed for twenty-years," or some such always seems sloppy is because the twenty year time jump itself is almost always a sloppy plot device.
posted
I agree with Yanos. You can show the passage of time by scenery.
quote:No birds chirped. There was no rustling in the bushes and no wind in the trees. It felt as if everything in the small forest was holding its breath, waiting. A man emerged from between the darkened trunks of the pines. The path beneath his feet was made of red brick and had, at one time, been well taken care of. Now, it was overgrown with moss and vines. Winding its way through the trees, the path led the man to a small clearing. A white picket fence had tried its best to keep the forest away from the small cottage in the center of the clearing, but time had won out. Waist high grass and foliage hid many parts of the fence which was now broken and rotting. The man stopped at the fence and rested one hand against the gate, surveying his surroundings.
A door creaked as it swung awkwardly on one rusty hinge, drawing the man’s attention to the house. The place was once a home. Overgrown rose bushes crowded the front entrance. Windows were broken in and shutters had been torn off. Whether by mischevious children from town or simply by the wind and weather over the years, the man did not know. The walls of the exterior seemed to be in fairly good condition even though the blue paint was peeling off and, in some places, completely gone.
The man sighed and pulled up the collar of his trench coat against the chilly air. It had been a long time for him. Things had changed and more changes were still to come. He looked once more at the old house then turned and walked away.
Walah…lots of descriptive stuff that show the passage of time. It would be especially effective if you had closed your last scene with the same man at the same house and describe the house as it would have looked then. After that, you jump ahead…describing the same scene subjected to the passage of time.
This allows you to show the passing of time without confusing the reader or making it sound too sloppy. If they can recognize the scenery (cause they were just in it) then you can point out the changes of time. Be careful though. If you write about a house in a clearing with a white picket fence and a brick path leading up to it, then you need to focus on those same things in the next scene.
You can also tell the reader, with dialouge, that time has passed but wait till later. Even if the dialouge takes place 10 pages later...the reader will remember things and will think back and go 'Ah hah!'
posted
I appreciate the input but I believe my situation to be more complex than you realize, a fault of my own.
I'll try to give more information.
Alexander is the POV character in the first section, Eric is main POV character for the rest of the book. (after the 20 year jump) At then end of Alexander's section he had replaced a group of genetically altered embryos with a group of normal healthy ones. (the society is so structure dthat people are spawned, not born,)
Eric is one of those embryos who is technically not alive and so wouldn't recognize any change in Alexander to prove it is 20 years later.
It is also important to not have anything from the POV of Alexander, and everyone he knew is dead from an incident that happened at the end of Section 1.
So I can't really show him from any relative POV, or any changes. So there really is no way to show the time shift that i can see, without using my dialogue device, that I explained earlier.
posted
Your dialogue device seems much more forced to me than just saing "Twenty years later..." If everyone Alexander knew was dead, why would someone call him by that name, when he's now going by another?
Story characters don't live in a vacuum. (Well, maybe they do, but I'm being figurative here, not literal.) By this, I mean that there are events going on in the world that may have nothing to do with the plotline.
So, in Section 1 you include a minor reference to some event. A news announcer mentions that the Smithsonian Museum of Reproductive History has opened despite protests from religious groups. Then, in Section 2 (fairly near the beginning of the section), you have someone mention they've been invited to a gala celebrating the 20th anniversary of the Smithsonian Museum of Reproductive History.
It can be anything. In fact, if whatever incident happened at the end of Section 1 was public and significant, then you can use it as the reference point. A newspaper headline: "20 Years Later, Event X Still Resonates" or "20 years Later, Few Remember Event X." Newspapers do that kind of stuff on slow news days.
posted
Oooh.....good idea. I don't know if you helped Alias but I just got a lightbulb moment for my own fifty cycles later bit. Posts: 3567 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
I think that you probably have either two seperate stories that happen to be set in the same universe (not a bad thing if each is interesting on its own) or you have a prologue/main story situation.
I sincerely hope that it isn't a main story epilogue situation, because in that case you might be in trouble. Only might, though.
The terms I used to describe the possible situations you face are indicative of the possible solutions. I'll deal with the first because it seems to best describe the situation you've got.
You can arrange a single publication work into two or more books, this is done all the time. So no problem there.
As I see it, the main problem is that, as you describe the situation, there is no reason anyone would know Archimdedes had once been Alexander. If everyone that he knew back then is dead, presumably that includes most of the people that knew him.
This is easily solved by having Eric (your character in the second story) find this information out, since he will be finding it out in the context of something that happened twenty years ago. And this also answers the question of how Eric knows that Archimedes used to be Alexander.
I don't think that it is fair to the reader when you single line important plot information, and unimportant information should be left in our out as the lines demand.
posted
Isaac Asimov's 'Foundation' might be a work worth looking at in this case; perhaps particularly the transition between 'The Mule' and 'Search By the Foundation'.
Posts: 26 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Hmmm... I always saw Foundation as 6 separate stories, however they were packaged together (be it in one volume, 3, or even 6 as they were originally published...)
I'm currently worrying about tying the end of my current story to the rest of it... the story is basically about a long journey (it takes 7 years) and all of the interesting things happen early on... except for one which happens at the end of the journey.
posted
It is a bit late, now, but I think I want to disagree with Survivor's feeling that a 20 year time jump is generally sloppy plotting. It need not be. But if you want that plot device, there is surely a way to bring the writer along. In the movies, there are dissolves and images evocative of the passage of time, and music in the interludes. Other devices can work in a literary setting.
This brings me to something that has been bothering me more and more as I read these boards. There is so much discussion of plot and hooks and POV, but what about the artistry? What about the music of language? What about elegance?
When I am reading, the texture of writing can often carry me along independent of the existence of hooks and cliff hanger plot lines and so on. If the writing has a distinctive taste, a savory turn of phrase here, a surprising and delightful metaphor there, that counts a lot to me. And if the writing is awkward, inelegant, or just plain, that turns me off.
In another thread, there is a discussion of showing versus telling, and people are saying that showing can bog down the story line with unnecessary description. But can't that description be attractive for its own sake? I recently reread Leguin's first Earthsea book. I found the writing incredibly moving and lyrical, even though the plot seems elongated and drawn out. I am currently listening to a book on tape called "The foreseeable future." Again, the texture of the writing is incredibly rich and evocative. Don't these things deserve equal mention with plot speed, POV, etc?
posted
All right, I have to ak....if it's sloppy to use a prologue, and it's sloppy to use a twenty year time jump, and it's sloppt to put in a long dream or flashback sequence...then what do you do!?
Posts: 3567 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
Let me clarify. I think that it is sloppy to use a twenty year time jump in the middle of the text by way of lines like, "twenty-years later," "...and there he stayed for twenty-years," or "that happened twenty years ago."
I'm not saying it's always sloppy to do this or that, I'm saying that there are sloppy ways and better ways, and you need to work on avoiding the sloppy way, particularly when it is a common fault.
I suggested two probable solutions that came to mind, which can tidy up the sloppyness as I see it. Glogpro has pointed out that there are others used in film which roughly correspond to this (usually, you want a minor resolution of an immediate plot tension, followed by a scene transition that shows the setting changing--seasonal changes are a popular way of handling this as they are very visual...having a rural scene become a near future suburb, or a desert landscape being fully terraformed, etc.). And there are other methods than the two I suggested, of course...like the one I didn't suggest because I have the sense that there is too much action after the aforementioned break for an epilogue to tell it well.
Glogpro also has a point about artistry and voice and all that, but of course to give suggestions on that vein we would need the actual text, not just a description of a plot problem. Furthermore, while I agree that improving your prose is more important to many readers than improving plot...it isn't as easy to take a line out of context and decide how it should be fixed.
Plot elements must be judged according to pretty fixed criteria; plausibility, character motive, impact on the reader, invention...and for a given plot element, taken out of context, I'm pretty confident that at least one of the suggestions offered on this forum will be close enough to what the writer wants accomplished. I know that when I've offered plot elements to be brainstormed, even when I thought all of the ideas people offered were silly, quite a few provided food for thought.
Take a line or two out of context and we could be helpless. Who is the POV character...or is this a narrative voice? Are you going for a cyberpunk mode or trying to write more like whatshername Rice? Who is the intended audience? And most difficult to answer...how does this line look in the context of your text?
I mean, without seeing at least the accompanying paragraph, we can't even avoid making such mistakes as suggesting that the writer use "uxorial" in a sentence that happens to already fall right inbetween another use of "uxorial" and an instance of "nuptial", or perhaps producing an unintentionally hilarious alliteration throughout the paragraph. Maybe this line is right between two other sentences starting with "John" and we suggest the writer should "identify the actor" and "avoid the implication of simultaneity here."
That said, I think that most writers that post on the FF forum get plenty of feedback on their style and usage...probably more than most can easily understand or apply.
posted
QUOTE: Christine -- posted February 28, 2004 06:30 PM -- All right, I have to ak....if it's sloppy to use a prologue, and it's sloppy to use a twenty year time jump, and it's sloppt to put in a long dream or flashback sequence...then what do you do!? END QUOTE
I don't know of this will be of any use to anyone who has a time jump in their work, but...
The sci-fi story I'm developing right now is based about 500 years from now, but the origins of the story are in the present day, and there are direct references to events which occured far into the past.
I originnally planned to have a prolouge to explain what occured in the present toexplain how the future i am dealing with came about. After writing a rough draft of that prolouge I decided it didn't fit so I loked for some way to move it into the book. I really, REALLY dislike flashbacks where a character goes back and 'experiences' his actions from the past, or when a scene appears that is essentially a short story within the text of the main novel, which contains its own characters/plot/ending; to me such a passage interrupts the main story.
While I was in one of my universe defining rants, somehow I hit on the idea of turning the backstory/prolouge story into a physical sub-plot. I created an object (a book) which one of my characters (Allr Meese) is seeking; but since i didn't want the character to simply find the book and read a story which explains it, I created a situation where Allr discovers all the information I want the reader to have in the process of finding the book. This allows me to give the exposition in small snippets that flow within the main story with much less interuption than simply having a prolouge or flashback.
The result has turned into a nice little story branch which has ended up allowing me to rewrite the story and combine several dangling elements.
Anyways, thats just how I ending up dealing with a prolouge-ish type of information without a 'this happened' but now 500 years later 'yadda yadda yadda'. I'm sure others have done it, but i didnt see much in this thread about the poissibility of integrating the information into the story, but this was granted a digression for the main topic and commenting on Christines comment.. and now i'm rambling... goodbye...
quote:Let me clarify. I think that it is sloppy to use a twenty year time jump in the middle of the text by way of lines like, "twenty-years later," "...and there he stayed for twenty-years," or "that happened twenty years ago."
I agree. Though less sloppy through dialogue than narrator voice, in my opinion.
quote:Glogpro has pointed out that there are others used in film which roughly correspond to this (usually, you want a minor resolution of an immediate plot tension, followed by a scene transition that shows the setting changing--seasonal changes are a popular way of handling this as they are very visual...having a rural scene become a near future suburb, or a desert landscape being fully terraformed, etc.)
Not a bad idea, but it won't work. WHy? because the scenery is the innards of a big metal building.
Glogpro also has a point about artistry and voice and all that,
quote:but of course to give suggestions on that vein we would need the actual text, not just a description of a plot problem.
Yes, I understand. I am, unfortunately, in no position to release the text at this moment.
quote:Furthermore, while I agree that improving your prose is more important to many readers than improving plot...it isn't as easy to take a line out of context and decide how it should be fixed.
Pause. Just for my own clarification, by "prose," are you meaning my word chocie and flow? Like modernized writing style, or some such? Please explain.
Plot elements must be judged according to pretty fixed criteria; plausibility, character motive, impact on the reader, invention...and for a given plot element, taken out of context, I'm pretty confident that at least one of the suggestions offered on this forum will be close enough to what the writer wants accomplished. I know that when I've offered plot elements to be brainstormed, even when I thought all of the ideas people offered were silly, quite a few provided food for thought.
quote:Take a line or two out of context and we could be helpless. Who is the POV character...or is this a narrative voice?
I am not sure the specific title for this style of writing. But, though "main" characters certainly exist, the given POV isn't fixed--it jumps. And it's in third person, naturally.
quote:Are you going for a cyberpunk mode or trying to write more like whatshername Rice? Who is the intended audience?
Ah. Now I'm wondering if perhaps you aren't talking to me and I'm stupidly jumping into a conversation that I scrolled through by accident. Regardless, I will continue.
The genre is Science Fantasy, the style is minimal detail with strong POV, and I'm not trying to mimmick anyone consciously.
quote:And most difficult to answer...how does this line look in the context of your text?
Do you mean my dialogue line? It's in a short segment of ominiscient POV, where there are no tags or narration, only dialogue. Not unlike a device Card quite clearly fell in love with, so it doesn't seem out-of-place.
Back to the point: I appreciate everyone's ideas, but none of them are actually able to fit my scenario.
-POV of Alexander shifts to another character who isn't "born" yet during the first section. Then suddenly it is POV Artemis 20 years later. In need for explanation there is a short omniscient POV section, tagless, between the two. In the dialogue are hints as to what has happened, and how much time has passed.
As far as displays of scenery, imposisble. Mostly because the scenary doesn't/can't change, it's artificial, plain, and indoors. All of it, up to this point.
quote:-POV of Alexander shifts to another character who isn't "born" yet during the first section. Then suddenly it is POV Artemis 20 years later. In need for explanation there is a short omniscient POV section, tagless, between the two. In the dialogue are hints as to what has happened, and how much time has passed.
I'm trying to make heads or tails of this, and I'm not sure I'm succeeding. What I think you're saying is this:
Section 1 - POV Alexander Interlude - Omniscient POV tagless dialogue Section 2 - POV Artemis, 20 years after end of Section 1
If that is your structure, then you have to be very careful with the interlude, because the dialogue has to make sense for its own sake, and not just as a method of conveying information to the the reader. Otherwise, it will seem very forced, as your mistaken name example in original post does. That's sloppier (in my opinion) than just putting in a heading that says "Twenty Years Later." Of course, if you need to establish the identity shift, then the dialogue may be necessary, but you need to make it seem a lot more natural.
posted
I like the way that some of what I said is in quotes and some is not...I'm not sure what it means, but it gives an intesesting effect like I'm conversing with myself and you are throwing comments in from the side.
As you noticed, the main body of my comment was simply to explain why it was easier for us to concentrate on handling major plot elements rather than getting into a discussion of style and lyric that properly would belong in the FF forum.
In light of what you've said, I'm going to fall back on my initial suggestion. Divide this into two 'books' (not two literally separate publications) and have the POV of the second book discover the events of the first book. This will solve the problem of how he knows the name Archimedes used twenty years ago and the problem of communicating to the reader that the events of this book are taking place twenty years after the events of the first book.
The solution you seem to describe as your current structure doesn't strike me as ideal, or even workable. But like Eric (the one that just posted, not your character), I'm unsure what exactly you mean.
quote:I like the way that some of what I said is in quotes and some is not...I'm not sure what it means, but it gives an intesesting effect like I'm conversing with myself and you are throwing comments in from the side.
LOL, Survivor. That sounded just like one of my brothers. Posts: 1810 | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
No, no, I don't mean because you only quoted some of my text, I mean because there was a bit where you had pasted my text, but you only put part of it in a quote box, so it looked like I was quoting myself:
quote:in this manner, you see.
I do quote myself quite a bit, though in this case I hadn't done so, it was supposed to be linear.
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