posted
In a way, this thread is a follow-up to one about the rules started by Kathleen a while back. In the end, many people thought that Hatrackers were exceptionally good at maintaining peaceful dialogue and respecting one another. Overall, I would agree with them, but this does not negate the idea that people are people, and that offenses, especially on-line, can and do occur among the most peaceful of people.
The line between a discussion and an argument is a thin one, often difficult to identify. Usually, it comes when someone takes offense. It doesn't matter why they take offense, but they do. As so much of communication in real life is non-verbal, it is even easier to take offense on-line than in the real world.
I humbly suggest that if you feel offended by a post, that you not respond to it at all. I wish I could say i have always taken this very sensible advice, but alas I have not. Every time I break it, I remember why it's good advice in the first place.
You see, two things could have happened when you felt offended: First, the poster did not mean to offend you. He either didn't think about the larger implications of what he wrote, or worded it badly. Either way, it doesn't really matter. Just let it go and everyone will have a nicer day.
Second, he might have meant to offend you. In this case, he will come off looking far worse if you ignore him, and meanwhile you have failed to start a flame war.
posted
But taking offense feels so gratifying. What is really great is when you can take offense at someone taking offense at your taking offense. It's better than a chocolat chip cream cheese pie.
Posts: 366 | Registered: Sep 2006
|
quote:I humbly suggest that if you feel offended by a post, that you not respond to it at all.
Hmmm...I'm not sure I agree. If there are misunderstandings, surely it's better to clear them up. People are people, and too often we let things fester and do ourselves and our relationships greater harm than whatever the original problem warranted.
quote:The MOMENT someone responds emotionally to an issue
The trick is not to respond emotionally. I don't mind dealing with someone who feels slighted/bothered/angered as long as that person is presenting his case politely. I'd like to think I'd be able to approach others the same way if I felt slighted/bothered/angered. Posts: 1810 | Registered: Jun 2002
|
1 can sweetened condensed milk 1 bag chocolate chips 12 oz. cream cheese (softened) a few tablespoons of lemon juice teaspoon of vanilla graham cracker crust
Microwave the sweetened condensed milk about a minute (longer if your oven is lame) stir in chocolate chips. The residual heat should melt them most the way. Microwaving isn't good for chocolate chips, but if you still have some chunks 20 seconds probably won't make them too grainy.
Once this is melted, taste it to make sure it isn't going to kill anyone...today. It is best if it isn't boiling hot when you beat in the cream cheese. After beating in the cream cheese, stir in the lemon juice and vanilla. Dump it in the crust and chill.
My in laws actually can't stomach the stuff, which is really odd because they produced my husband.
And on the general subject, does someone have to mean to offend you to offend you? Like if they tell a dead baby joke and you don't think that's funny, they probably didn't know about your dead baby. I get that a lot.
posted
I'm with Kolona. If you absolutely feel you have to respond, please consider something along the lines of
quote:When you posted thus and such, it made me think you were saying this and so about/to me. I really hope you did not mean it that way, but I thought I'd better check.
posted
However, Christine's recommendation is a very good one. If you are strong enough to refrain from responding at all, please do so.
Posts: 8826 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
|
posted
I think it's very important to say something, if you can do it nicely.
I belong to a board very similar to this one, where I am having trouble with another member who seems very rude and condescending in a major percentage of his posts. I tried leading by example, which proved to subtle. Another 'old hat' member also tries to smooth things over in the form of open discussion. I finally emailed the guy and very nicely pointed out that he may not be aware of the way some of his posts came across. He was defensive, as I was afraid of, but made no changes so I finally contacted a moderator. Mod said he emailed him privately as well, but it seems to have been disregarded.
Most active people are new members, and no one seems willing to comment. I'm trying to realize that I can control my own reaction, and I'm just considering it a study in patience. But honestly, it's getting to the point where I don't enjoy the forum anymore because one person has to act like a twit.
If more coherant and compassion members stood up for the integrity of the board, the internet would not be half so bad as it is.
posted
I am troubled by the notion that people who are offended should just not respond. It seems to me to give all the power and freedom to the offender, and increase the insult to the offendee by silencing them.
I think that's deeply disfunctional. I was raised by two alcoholics. "Shut up and pretend everything's fine" is a key dynamic in my family and I'm not willing to play it out anywhere else in my life.
If I am ever offensive to any of you, odds are that I did not intend it, and I would rather know the effect that my words are having than not.
posted
I agree with Beth. If I have offended someone I want to know. I'd like not only a chance to apologise, but a chance to learn what it was I did that caused the offense.
I have yet to see any post here that appeared to be created with the purpose of offending.
posted
I will respond to an offensive post. But not always when I am offended, especially when I know there is no good reason to take exception. Does that make sense? However, some stuff is just plain offensive. Like seeing how many offendees you can rack-up Its weird and designed to exclude.
Sometimes it is caged in terms of 'realistic criticism' when in fact it is a convoluted pretense designed to assert the writer's intellectual dominance over another, or group of other, people.
Cheap thrills.
[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited June 15, 2005).]
posted
Am I -- in my post every 10 days style -- missing some deep level of conflict? Because everyone seems to be charged these days.
Posts: 697 | Registered: Mar 2003
|
posted
So, I'm really intrigued by what Ahavah had to say about the other board she uses.
What would happen to a jerk like that around here? There have been a few examples. As far as I know they've either been attacked so vehemently that they've abandoned the boards or they've straightened up their acts and settled into the community. How is it we succeed at this where others fail?
(By the way, Ahavah, I just read on your profile that you're a Doula. How cool is that? Wish I'd had one with my births. I actually hoped to have one for my last baby, but she had to go and get pregnant and give birth the same day as me--my sister who is an excellent lay-midwife as well.)
posted
I feel that I need to weigh in here, it is possible that some of my comments are what brought this thread up to begin with.
I think there should be a code of ethics on this site, and most people adhere to it already with no prompting. To me, that means never making cutting or derogatory remarks about another person's writing in general, or even in particular.
Now, I don't mean constructive criticism, which is more than appropriate, it should be encouraged.
But I do mean inflammatory remarks that in no way can be construed as meant to help the author grow as a writer.
Even if I personally felt another author's work was horrible, I would only go so far as to say something along the lines of "this did not speak to me" or "you may have a limited audience the way the story stands now" or give specific pointers on how that person can grow. I would not say words to the effect of "this sucks" or "what a pointless idea" or otherwise do anything to tear down someone's self esteem.
There have been multiple times since I have become a member of this site (almost a year now) when I have encountered comments that really bothered me because of how disrespectful they were (not always from the same person, and not always directed at me), and I have never spoken up before. Perhaps I should not have said anything now, but I feel that there comes a time when I don't want to just ignore something in the hopes it will go away. It doesn't always go away.
If my remarks were disrespectful or inflammatory, I will withdraw them. I hate bickering and squabbling. However, I felt they were appropriate for the situation.
Consider this a public apology if I have crossed the line of decency and respect. My intent was to stop the situation, not to worsen it.
quote:Hey, where's HSO? He's our resident expert on this topic!
I was lurking, hoping to learn something.
But I'll give my honest views on the subject of being offended and offending (in list form, and in no particular order):
1. Don't be offended.
2. Who cares? It's usually opinion.
3. People are far too sensitive.
4. People say dumb things all of the time. Why is today any different? How about laughing at it instead of getting upset.
5. If you're offended by something, then it's your problem. (It really and truly is your problem.)
6. In America, freedom of speech inherently gives you the right to say something offensive. Get used to others doing this. (Doesn't mean you should abuse this privelege, but it's there if you need it. Expect repercussions from overly-sensitive types, the media, and your parents, maybe - they probably raised you better.)
7. Political Correctness sucks. If you're trying to be PC, you're wasting your time. Quit it now, and focus your energy on something worthwhile, like taking care of those you love.
8. Life isn't fair. You cannot make it fair. Don't even try. Deal.
9. Pick and choose your battles. Is it really worth it?
10. Nothing I say really makes any difference. I'm a much happier person knowing this. For example, this list is useless. I know this. Still, I like making lists -- they make me happy.
Look, we can talk about hypotheticals all day long, but most of the time when I see someone getting offended, it's a misinterpretation. The response is rarely about finding out if they really meant that...it's about venting emotional frustration and being right.
posted
I think it's important to distinguish between a single instance and a repeat offender. If someone says something offensive and it's not something you'd expect from that person, then ignoring it is absolutely the best thing to do. But if they do it on a regular basis, then I'm with Beth--it's a problem and ignoring it won't make it go away. The person needs to be told.
However, in NO case does the person need to be flamed at. In fact, most (maybe all?) of the times when I made such a complaint, I wasn't the offendee. It's easier to keep your cool if you're mediating on behalf of someone else--and it also sends a stronger message to offenders, letting them know that other people thought their remarks crossed a line. Likewise, if you are the one being offended, it makes you look about ten times better (as Christine pointed out), if you don't respond and someone else steps in. And if no one steps in? Well, if it isn't repeated, then it wasn't really a problem, was it? And if it will be repeated, you'll have another chance later on.
If it's already been repeated, and no one has said anything, then politely point it out.
quote:. In fact, most (maybe all?) of the times when I made such a complaint, I wasn't the offendee. It's easier to keep your cool if you're mediating on behalf of someone else--and it also sends a stronger message to offenders, letting them know that other people thought their remarks crossed a line.
I agree!
DJV--I find the whole situation on my other board to be pretty entertaining sometimes. That board is VERY, VERY similar to this one. Pretty much neighbors, in fact. The difference I've noticed is, this forum has more active posting and this forum is more actively moderated.
As I said, only two 'old hats' (me and another) have tried to speak up. The posting has really died down since this situation began, and I think other people just aren't finding it entertaining anymore. I agree with HSO saying our reactions ARE our problems, which is why I'm trying to pull back some. It's very hard for me, as I am a moderator on every board I belong to except for these two (and the Flash Challenges I just joined). I'm used to nipping that sort of behavior in the bud right away. So I'm trying to distance myself, but at the same time I'm contemplating leaving the group. And I just don't think that's right.
The people here seem to be fairly mature and well-spoken in their opinions. If others do start to cross the line, I think it's great when an OUTSIDE party will say, "Hey, man. That's not cool." I don't think it's a matter of being too sensitive. I think that a lot of people online just talk smack because they can, especially when they don't 'know' the person and don't have to worry about getting popped in the mouth. When a person acts that way consistently, I think it's important for people to stand up for common courtesy.
-----------
And as for being a doula, it's fantastic! Nothing's better than being invited to share in a family's miracle. I never had one myself, but having my DD 2 yrs ago is what made me want to be one. I'm trying to get certified before baby # 2 comes in August---and I'll be having a doula for this one!
posted
I think Beth is right about not ignoring problem people - that just empowers them to continue the behaviour. At the same time I like HSO's response - "People are far too sensitive".
I have always been sensitive to nuances in language. People say things that don't come out the way they meant them, and sometimes it does come out right, but they pretend they didn't mean to offend (that's an easy way to get your licks in and come out looking innocent), etc.
I recognize this sensitivity and if something bothers me here, I will give it a day. During that time I am writing nasty comments in my head, getting it all out of my system. When I can look back at it and laugh, then I write a response - if I still feel the need. Most of the time I don't because most people on this site are polite.
I don't agree that others should jump in to mediate (except the forum moderator). People are more likely to come to the rescue of their friends. This can escalate a problem further. We are all adults and can handle our own problems.
For the record, the one thing that bothers me is when people start talking down to others. "You don't agree with me, therefore you are wrong." Of course, that's probably just a personality thing on their part.
posted
So, some of you may know this while I hope other's do not. I have a fairly nasty temper. I've been battling it for years; even when I hold my tongue and keep a smile on my face I turn red, then white, and then red again. It's nice to have color-coding I suppose, but it's frustrating when I'm trying to be good. I like the internet because it gives me an opportunity to have that anger reaction and I can wait until I'm no longer angry without anyone knowing.
I think that's the key. It's not that you should let people get away with bad behaivor, it's just that you shouldn't react to it while you're furious. There's no way you can respond in a way that will improve the situation. It's not about putting people in their place, it's about making sure it doesn't happen again.
Beth, I'm going to use you as an example, if that's all right. And I'm doing this because you said that you thought people should be told if their behaivor seems inappropriate--and because I'll see you on Sunday and can buy you icecream to make up for it. Unless you hate me, of course.
Ready? Okay.
To me, sitting at my computer several hundred miles away, this post might look angry.
quote: I apologize for having opinions and reactions that Christine and HSO do not approve of.
(Don't you dare go and delete it.) But I can just as easily imagine that you meant it sincerely as a sort of "let's agree to disagree" thing.
The problem is, that if I answer it while I'm in offended/angry mode, I will only see option one. If I said, "Look, I don't care what you think. You've got duck-poo all over you and..." Well, actually I can't think of an offensive response right now. You get my point.
But if I wait, I can find the thing to say that might make things better. Or realize that I'm reading intentions into the post that weren't there in the first place.
So, all of that lengthy diatribe is to say that I think there's a middle ground that one can find with common sense. Clearly, HSO will tell someone if they are out of line. I can hold my tongue when a response is unwarranted.
My own, personal, real goal is to someday hit a point where I just don't get angry in the first place. But not today.
The board that Mike mentioned that got hacked into? It's mine. If I could find the hackers I would turn every raging red-haired iota of my being on them and gnaw through them like a pack of rabid dogs.
[This message has been edited by MaryRobinette (edited June 16, 2005).]
quote:It's not that you should let people get away with bad behaivor, it's just that you shouldn't react to it while you're furious. There's no way you can respond in a way that will improve the situation. It's not about putting people in their place, it's about making sure it doesn't happen again.
I think we should frame this.
Of course, the trouble with me is I can go away and come back the next day and feel that anger rekindled. But most of the time if I go away, try to get into a calmer place, and then come back the moment has, at least, passed.
But if it hasn't, if it's still a problem, then the above advice is quite sound.
[This message has been edited by Christine (edited June 16, 2005).]
posted
>Mwah< Beth, I owe you a big dish of icecream or your favorite treat on Sunday. Thanks for letting me use your post as an example.
Posts: 2022 | Registered: Jul 2003
|
Printer-friendly view of this topic
