Let's figure out how to provide the best information in the most efficient and concise way so people will be willing to read it, and so new members will have a better idea of what goes on here and how it all works.
posted
I don't know about rules per se, but I sure have some suggestions about critiques.
What's most important to me: what I want to know in a critique is how you reacted, and when. Telling me "you have too many characters for me to keep straight" isn't as helpful as a note on page 12 saying "Bo? I forgot who Bo is."
The main reactions I want are classified easily as: "Huh?" (I'm confused, I don't get it, or I forgot who Bo is) "So?" (I'm bored, I don't care how the sonic screwdriver works, I don't care who Bo is) "Oh, yeah?" (I don't find this believable, it's kicking me out of the story) "Cool!"
It's also ok to point out typos or punctuation problems.
If you read my 5000-word story and give me two comments and they're about word choice, either I've written the greatest story ever told, or I want more detail.
posted
The "rules" you have linked to here seem mostly to do with forming critique groups and giving comments on fragments and feedback. There seem to be no common sense rules of forum ettiquette, nor, as is often the case with long-standing groups like this, are there any guidelines as to traditionally accepted practices specific to this forum. I have seen both of these on other boards.
Rules of forum ettiquette are easy. Here are several links that could be borrowed from:
These were just three that popped up out of a search ot "internet etiquette" and "forum etiquette"
As you can see, there are some basic rules but often each forum has sort of social practices that might be acceptable elsewhere but not on forum X...the one in question.
For example, on Hatrack all topics should somehow be writing related. While some friendly social chatter is acceptable diverging too far from the topic of writing is not.
When it comes to things that are more social tradition than etiquette, I've found this to be true:
Typically, the person who starts a thread has the right to end the discussion. (This is especially true on Fragments and Feedback, where I personally have used this power to end discussions of fragments that I ship out to a publisher and therefore don't want to hear about anymore. )
These are just a couple of things that spring to mind. I could probably come up more if I spent some time thinking about them, but the thing about etiquette and tradition is that often you don't think about it until someone flies off the handle and breaks a rule.
posted
As long as I'm at it, I would recommend something like this, borrowed from the pages I searched but modified for what I believe would serve Hatrack best:
Rules:
This is a forum for writers. All topics should relate to writing in some way.
When utilizing the fragments and feedback forum, do not post plagarized work or unauthorized work set in another author's world.
Refrain from using ALL CAPITAL LETTERS, excessive question marks (?) or exclamation points (!) in your subject or content.
Crossposting the same question in more than one forum will cause confusion and most likely reduce the chance of a reply.
Be patient. All the participants of this forum are using the forum and participating in discussions on their own time.
Help others. The forum is a community, and works best when people share information.
Give feedback. If someone helps you by answering your question, try to add a follow-up response letting them know if it worked or not.
Read the forums before you post your topic. Your question or comment may have recently been discussed, answered, or resolved. (I modified this from the borrowed version because I encourage new members to rehash long-dead topics. I believe there is benefit from being a part of the discussion rather than reading the comments of long-gone and forgotten strangers. However; it does frustrate me when a new member fails to go back as far as the 45 days shown by default.)
Adhere to the same standards of behavior online that you follow in real life.
Respect other people's time and bandwidth (ie keep your posts short and to the point).
Help keep flame wars under control. Do not make inflamator comments, personal attacks, or respond to inflamatory comments or personal attacks.
Be forgiving of other people's mistakes.
Constructive criticism is not the same thing as a personal attack. Learn the difference, whether you are taking or receiving.
*****
Guidelines:
Descriptive subjects and clear, detailed questions help to promote discussion.
The thread originator usually has the option to end a thread. (Especially on Fragments and Feedback.)
Specific advice on stories, even if you are not looking for feedback on a fragment, is best done in Fragments and Feedback. General discussion topics should appeal on a broader level.
The fragments and feedback forum serves you best if you provide: title (if any), word count, genre, and a specific request (ie "I want feedback on the posted fragment." or "I am interested in volunteers to read my story/chapter/novel.)
We welcome all kinds of writing and writers; however, be aware that most of the members of this board read and write prose science fiction and fantasy. Be patient if you post a poem or a fragment from a non scifi/fantasy story.
Typically, when a person posts a fragment on fragments and feedback the other members respond to the ones that interest them. If you get no response, this may be a sort of response. Do not get offended, but perhaps try posting something else.
Anyone is welcome to post a new topic or respond to an existing topic at any time. If you respond to an existing topic, do read the previous comments before responding. It is not against the rules to repeat something that has already been said, but it is potentially a waste of time and bandwidth. Try to have a new angle.
Additionally, if you post a new topic, scan the topics for at least a few weeks to make sure the topic has not been rehashed too recently. We can discuss the same things again, and in fact new members can benefit from being a part of discussions rather than reading about them, but you will probably not interest people in rediscussing something that came up in the past few weeks and it can be considered rude to not have looked into our group at least that far.
Introduce yourself in the forum for introductions. This is the best way to get started and become welcome.
******************
That's my opinion, of course. Others feel free to weigh in with additions/deletions.
posted
Those look like pretty comprehensive guidelines/rules to me. The only thing I might emphasize is the element of respect. Even if you disagree with someone, and even if you personally hold an extremely low view of their intelligence or whatever else, learn to post with respect. This factor seems to be one of the greatest distinctions between this group and others that I've seen and heard about. This group operates with an unusually high level of mutual respect.
Posts: 491 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
Well, if I saw all those rules [Christine's] before joining this site, I'd probably not read all of them in one go. I would eventually read them, though... piecemeal, probably.
The thing is, a lot of that what's been posted belongs in a FAQ, not rules for board particpation.
Ideally, the rules should be short, sweet, and simple.
For instance:
1. Stay on topic. 2. Lurk, and Read the FAQs before posting. 3. Do not flame or troll other members. 4. Do not respond to flames or trolls, contact the administrator or ignore them, the latter being the easiest thing for all. 5. We expect you to behave as adults, not children. So, respect others. Opinions will vary.
Those are rules! Then, you have FAQs to cover everything else. When someone steps out of line, we chorus: "Read the FAQ."
Consider not putting in guidelines for critiquing into the "rules." Those belong in a FAQ. FAQ's can be lengthy, and could be written in a manner that is read in bits and chunks, when a member needs to have a question answered, or to know something specific.
posted
Good point, HSO. Perhaps that's part of what I meant by the difference between "rules" and "guidelines". Of course, I have trouble being concise so even my rules...well, let's try it again, then...
Rules:
1. Show respect.
2. This is a forum for writers. All topics should relate to writing in some way.
3. Do not post plagarized work or unauthorized work set in another author's world.
4. Be patient.
5. Help others.
6. Read the forums before you post.
7. Do not start flame wars.
Moved to Guidelines (or perhaps a FAQ):
Refrain from using ALL CAPITAL LETTERS, excessive question marks (?) or exclamation points (!) in your subject or content.
Crossposting the same question in more than one forum will cause confusion and most likely reduce the chance of a reply.
Give feedback. If someone helps you by answering your question, try to add a follow-up response letting them know if it worked or not.
Respect other people's time and bandwidth (ie keep your posts short and to the point).
Do not make inflamator comments, personal attacks, or respond to inflamatory comments or personal attacks. (Or in some way some answer to: "How do I stay out of a flame war?")
Be forgiving of other people's mistakes. (Also under the above question)
Constructive criticism is not the same thing as a personal attack. Learn the difference, whether you are taking or receiving.(more on avoiding flame wars)
posted
How about going for an even simpler method based upon Asimov's Three Rules of Robotics?
quote:From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
In science fiction, the Three Laws of Robotics are a set of three laws written by Isaac Asimov, which most robots appearing in his fiction have to obey. First introduced in his short story "Runaround" (1942), they state the following:
1. A robot may not harm a human being, or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm. 2. A robot must obey the orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law. 3. A robot must protect its own existence, as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.
1. A Hatracker may not post in such a manner that is not respectful of fellow members or that incites disrespect. 2. A Hatracker shall honestly present their own opinion, except where such opinion conflicts with 1. above. 3. A Hatracker shall pursue excellence in their writing by use of this Forum, as long as such pursuit does not conflict with 1. or 2. above.
Or something like that. I'm sure you guys could improve on it.
[This message has been edited by mikemunsil (edited May 26, 2005).]
posted
don't tell me wikipedia forgot the zeroth law!
* looks it up and find that indeed, it did not, it is just further down.
quote:From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Zeroth Law added
Asimov once added a "Zeroth Law", so named to continue the pattern of lower-numbered laws superseding in importance the higher-numbered laws. R. Daneel Olivaw is the first to give the Law a name, in the novel Robots and Empire; however, Susan Calvin articulates the concept in the short story "The Evitable Conflict". In Robots and Empire, R. Giskard Reventlov was the first robot to act according to the Zeroth Law, although it proved destructive to his positronic brain, as he violated the First Law. R. Daneel, over the course of many thousand years, was able to adapt himself to be able to fully obey the Zeroth Law. As Daneel formulated it, the Zeroth Law reads
0. A robot may not injure humanity, or, through inaction, allow humanity to come to harm.
A condition stating that the Zeroth Law must not be broken was added to the original Laws.
as such, i propose that we also add a zeroth rule to the hatrack forums
0. A Hatracker may not post in such a manner that is not respectful to fellow Writers or that incites disrespect of fellow Writers.
i also recommend the following changes to the three rules:
1. A Hatracker may not post in such a manner that is not respectful of fellow Hatrackers or that incites disrespect of fellow Hatrackers, except where such posts would conflict with 0. above.
2. A Hatracker shall honestly present their own opinion, except where such opinion conflicts with 0. or 1. above.
3. A Hatracker shall pursue excellence in their writing by use of this Workshop, as long as such pursuit does not conflict with 0., 1., or 2. above.
posted
I think Minister originally said it -- respect is the key. The problem is different people have different views on what is disrespectful. Who decides what is respectful and what isn't? I thought the the moderator made that decision when she locks a topic. That works for me. Most people figure out the rules as they go. I don't see the need for new rules -- the site runs pretty well as is.
[This message has been edited by Dude (edited May 27, 2005).]
[This message has been edited by Dude (edited May 27, 2005).]
posted
Dude, you're right, we have quite a good group here and we are almost always respectful to one another. However, having a set of rules is a sort of protection for the future. You can't tell me you didn't know because it was in the rules...that sort of thing. Also, it helps define respect, for I disagree that you cannot standardize this concept. Rules of social behavior that we don't often think about rule our daily lives and should rule our on-line lives. Many people, shielded by anonymity, forget this. That's one of the reasons I use my real name. I cannot hide behind anonymity so I must present myself in a positive light. Many people choose not to do this, however; and I respect that. Meanwhile, I will have them stand up and be polite or I hope Kathleen will throw them off this board. (An extreme I hope we don't have to reach.)
Posts: 3567 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
One of the things I've noticed as we've had an influx of younger folk from the now-defunct Young Writer's forum - they seem to have different standards of what is acceptable in terms of respect. I've seen comments that others shouldn't get offended since they didn't use the "F" word or they didn't actually call someone a doody-head. Or worse.
It's an age-generated culture gap. But being specific about what "respect" means to us might help.
posted
No set of rules will really capture civilized behavior. There was probably some rule against going up to the money-changers in the temple and throwing their tables around, but it was still a good thing to do. What we need are overall guidelines, and a leader. Which we have.
Posts: 2830 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
Survivor didn't say how he would engage in the flame war, just that he was against anything that kept him from engaging. I trust him to engage with style and vigor.
Posts: 2710 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
I personally think that the first one is fairly clear, and share HSO's concern that if it gets more detailed then people won't read it. May I suggest that in addition to these, we--meaning Kathleen--change the little blurb under Fragments and Feedback? I see a lot of Newbies come in and do exactly what that says, and then have some Old-time get huffy because the Newbie didn't say genre or if they were looking for readers.
Currently it says
quote:Need volunteers to look at your writing? This is the place to ask for them. Start a topic, give it the title of your story, and then post the first 13 lines of your story. Please do not post more than the first 13 lines of your work in any topic here at Hatrack.
Maybe it could be something like
quote:Need volunteers to look at your writing? This is the place to ask for them. Start a topic, give it the title of your story. List the genre (i.e. Fantasy, Mystery, Horror...), the type of help you want, and the first 13 lines of your story. Please do not post more than the first 13 lines of your work in any topic here at Hatrack.
I also just looked at the UBB Infopop website and there's apparently an option to make a topic "Important" so it stays at the top. Perhaps there could be a more detailed explanation of the "rules" for the individual areas in one of those. That way, people don't have to backtrack out of the forum to find the rules.
[This message has been edited by MaryRobinette (edited May 27, 2005).]
posted
"Sticky posts" are a relatively new feature in UBB. Our board is 5.47d, which means it's so old that you can't even find a sticky mod that works with it.
I really have no idea what can and can't be changed without breaking something. But the idea of giving slightly more informative descriptions for the main forums seems pretty workable. I almost never even see those cause I always skip right to the forum topic lists, but I'm guessing that most newbies wouldn't be doing that.
posted
I'm not sure basing the rules on the Asimovian model is a good way to present this as a non-fan-fic forum. Just sayin', is all.
Posts: 366 | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
Actually, I would reverse the order of those rules almost completely.
1. A Hatracker shall use this Workshop to pursue excellence in writing.
2. A Hatracker shall honestly present their own opinion, except where such opinion conflicts with the first law.
3. A Hatracker may not post in a manner that is not respectful of fellow Hatrackers or that incites disrespect of fellow Hatrackers, except where such posts are required by the first or second laws.
This is, after all, a writing forum, not a "respecting" forum. If there is behavior that will prevent us from becoming better writers, then of course it should be avoided. Honesty is an important quality, but is not an excuse for us to do anything that would prevent us from becoming great writers here (if you think, in all honesty, that becoming a better writer is no longer possible/desireable for you, then you shouldn't be here). Respectful manners are a good thing in any community, but they should not impair anyone's personal integrity, and they certainly shouldn't keep us from striving to be better writers.
The reason that this forum is as good as it is has a lot to do with the fact that we all focus on helping ourselves and each other with a definite task. People that don't care about becoming better writers don't have any reason to stick around here, and that means that those who do stick around have always shared a common passion. There have been a few cases of people who thought they could come in here and troll, but most of them found out pretty quickly that a forum loaded with excellent writers aren't easy meat in a written debate.
On the other hand, forums loaded with people who insist on "sensitivity" and "respect" are full of easy meat for anyone who wants to have a bit of fun at their expense. You need a dozen moderators just to handle deleting all the spurious attack posts. Everyone is always getting hurt feelings over everything that gets posted and everything that gets deleted, and getting any serious work done becomes impossible.
We're a sane place in an insane internet because we're the local dojo. Smart trolls don't come here to make trouble, and if they do we're the ones that end up having all the fun.
posted
We don't need the "except" clauses, though. Being respectful doesn't stop me from giving my honest opinion. I think.
Posts: 2830 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
While I'd agree that making respect the first rule sets it up to be broken, by this same token I'm not sure pursuing excellence in writing should be put in the first slot.
Posts: 366 | Registered: Sep 2006
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i think i actually agree, Survivor, except then Pursuing excellence is the zeroth rule, and it goes up from there, with being respectful of writers outside of the community being the third rule.
but in all honesty, franc was right, and we probably shouldn't use a rule system modelled after Asimovs Laws of Robotics. we've been getting quite a few new members that aren't science fiction writers, and they might be alienated by a rule-set based on a science fiction writer. so, no matter how cute it might sound, it's out of place and we should just follow some other simpler rule set... if we really need one at all...
i honestly think that our new writers will settle in and figure out how things operate here quickly enough. of course, i haven't even checked the frags and feed board recently... been too busy doing other stuff since i don't have anything that i need feedback on right now.
posted
I wouldn't be worried about alienating the non-speculatives so much as completely bemusing them. Unless you actually post "with apologies to Asmimov" which I feel would be inadvisable.
Is there a general understanding that the writers on this forum are geared toward publication? I know we have some who are not at this time- I was such a one earlier in life.
posted
Most of the writers here are geared towards publication in some form, and I would say that there is general understanding that moving texts towards publishability is the main function of the Fragments and Feedback forum. Almost all of the discussion about writing in general here is applicable to writing publishable material, and it is often the explicit topic.
I think that it would be most correct to say simply that we discuss writing as writing, and leave it at that. The act of writing tends to imply an audience, because it is a form of communication. So any discussion of writing will touch on issues of readability and message and so forth, basically the central issues of making something publishable (remember, the first meaning of the word is to make something public).
On the subject of rules, I don't think that having a system of three rules is absolutely going to be a tribute to Asimov any more than to anyone else. And if we eliminate the "except" clauses, then it isn't a tribute to the Laws of Robotics at all.
And if I were to have a zeroth law, I think it would be something like "A Hatrack writer has a life outside of Hatrack." But then, you never know.
posted
Okay, a total newbie chiming in here (although I've been lurking for awhile).
You folks are obsessing over the nits. Present the rules - short, sweet, and simple. Don't overwrite them. Offer a FAQ with longer info that can be read at leisure. The FAQ can include the fun stuff, e.g., where you rewrite the rules in Asimovian.
And here's the key: if the rules are short and sweet, the order doesn't matter. Credit us newbs the benefit of the intelligence to read the whole list, prioritize correctly, and realize that this is a board for writers.
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