quote: What could be more lonely than to be enveloped in silence, to be the last of your people to speak your native tongue, to have no way to pass on the wisdom of the elders, to anticipate the promise of the children. This tragic fate is indeed the plight of someone somewhere roughly every two weeks. For on average every fortnight a leader dies and carries with him or her into the grave the last syllables of an ancient tongue. What this really means is that within a generation or two, we are witnessing the loss of fully half of humanity's legacy. This is the hidden backdrop of our age.
All those stories... gone.
[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited April 13, 2005).]
posted
That is sad... but, then, that's the way of the world. Cultures, languages, stories, all of them rise and fall with the years, and we've lost more of them than most of us are aware of. But who's to say that we won't end up coming up with those same basic stories fresh for a whole new society to enjoy? Isn't that sort of Joseph Campbell's thing, with the whole monomyth of the hero and all that? So maybe we haven't lost as much as we think we have.
I don't really know, though. I'm just thinking out loud.
posted
Hmmm...it's really not that terrible a fate. After all, true diversity isn't a function of mere redundancy. And if you look at things in terms of this "ethnosphere" concept, it is actually better that languages and culture assimilate into larger aggregates.
Does that mean I'm against language preservation projects in general? Of course not. But I am realistic. The truth is that every generation alters the language inheritance. The English language of a hundred years ago only exists in old books, and that preserves only the written language, not the way people back then would speak. And the fact that over 6000 human languages exist to be "lost" only proves that the particular words of a language are fairly arbitrary.
The concepts expressed by the literature of that language are the essential thing. And it is rare that the old concepts really die out if they are of any value. True, preventing the loss of even one good concept is worth the trouble of saving several of these dying languages. But you should never become so focused on the languages that you forget to preserve the concepts.
And that's what this writer has done, with his mumbo-jumbo about equally valid ways of seeing the world and alternate realities. He's the one that lives divorced from the basics of being a human in a harsh world, because he's the child of humanity's attempt to escape that world.
You cannot escape us. We are always here, at the root of reality. Deny our existence, and we will destroy you utterly and without mercy. Not out of malice, but simply because reality has no mercy for those that ignore it.
Your human-constructed social reality may inflict indignity on us, but it cannot destroy us or even truly hinder us. Nor can your commitees stop the stars in their courses by decree. We are the reality, and your civilizations, your cultures, your languages, are the illusion.
posted
Culture is the transfer of language, beliefs, customs and practices from generation to generation.
It is not THE language, beliefs, customs and practices.
It is the TRANSFER that makes it culture.
It is silly to think that a culture dies with a loss of language, practices, beliefs and customs continue.
But, many of the beliefs, practices and customs will have no reinforcement in the thought matrices that accompany the new language. Things will seem irrelevant and therefore will not survive the cultural transfer.
Regarding Assimilation,
They say that as races mix around the world, that certain genetic traits will eventually disappear, replaced by the dominant ones. Blue eyes are an example, they are already occuring with less regularlity in Northern European countries. It does not mean however that blue eyes are somehow inferior in function. Similarly disappearing cultures are no less valid than any other. Are they?
[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited April 14, 2005).]
posted
Hmmm...the genes for blue eyes will remain in the population, though. So kids with blue eyes will continue to pop up here and there. Eventually, they'll account for a quarter of the entire mixed population, whereas before they only accounted for a much smaller fraction.
That ability to "skip a generation" and appear where it would seem the recessive gene hadn't been passed down is characteristic of recessive genes. It's how certain genetic diseases which severly impair reproductive ability in the afflicted continue to exist in the population.
An assimilated culture could very easily do something similar, skipping generations or even lineages an cropping up in the most receptive children. It's a very old story, in a sense.
posted
In New Zealand / Aotearoa we call language, stories etc taonga - which roughly translated means treasures. The words of a song, the sayings of your grandparents, the wisdom of the kuia are all to be treasured and kept safe. The concepts expressed in these taonga cannot EVER be expressed correctly in another language. That language has no words / translations for ideas that are in the heart of the culture and people. These things are like rare plants and animals they balance the cultural ecosystem and keep things grounded. Without these things how do you know truly who you are or where you come from?
To compare this with genetic diversity and the blending of nationalities is ,I feel, a weird thing to do it's not your DNA that tells you who you are but your culture. When you loose this you loose your place in the world. Without your language to speak the words of who you are your voice is truly silenced. This is another form of colonisation - to take a language, to take an identity, to take a culture and turn it to your own. These peoples descendents will wonder why and search desperately for clues as to their background but without a language they will be ' strangers in a strange land'.
To be a foreigner to your own people and traditions is a terrible thing.
I believe that while all the things that you are saying e.g. "That's life, oh well" that's all well and good but it's not YOUR culture that this is happening to. Different viewpoints/cultures (I believe) in the world are extremely valuable and I would not want to live in a MacD's homogenised culture for anything.
Toku reo toku ohooho My Language, my awakeningÂ
Obviously I feel rather strongly on this topic. kia kaha
[This message has been edited by limo (edited April 14, 2005).]
[This message has been edited by limo (edited April 14, 2005).]
posted
In fact, it has already happened to my "culture". We lost our language a long time ago, and make do with what's at hand.
To me, all human languges are pretty interchangable. All of them are equally arbitrary, all equally nonsensical. We use them, but we do not rely on them. To us, meaning is not a function of vocabulary, it is a matter of intention.
In case Survivor's last post seemed obscure in any way, you should know that Survivor is not human. He is an alien, a survivor in truth of a crashed flying saucer. We haven't yet determined his planet of origin, but are collecting data. It's not clear whether his culture was lost at the time of the crash, or whether his people's entire civilization suffered some sort of catastrophic collapse--perhaps that was the cause of the ill-fated interstellar flight. Because we are not yet sure of those points, I won't discuss them further here. But I did want to let you know the facts that we have verified through careful analysis of all relevant data.
[This message has been edited by rickfisher (edited April 14, 2005).]
posted
I like the comparison between the genetics of racial differences and languages. They both came about for the same reason: populations of humans isolated in different environments by barriers, sometimes political, sometimes great distances.
The forces that separated these populations were temporary. Thus, cultures, languages, and races are temporary. Behind us a few hundred thousand years of this seperation, ahead lie millions of years of supersonic travel and electronic communications. Unless/until we create new barriers (like colonizing outer space) the blending of human cultures, languages, and racial characteristics will continue until all humans are gray and speak Chinese.
posted
I'm afraid, I side with Limo. It is harder to take when it is really happening to you. It is not that it happens that is so disturbing, it is the speed. I don't know if it was ever so fast before.
Yes, Doc, The isolation of population was my reason for the language/genetic comparison.
Interesting idea for a story, the last english speaker in the universe, Imagine if he was a English Literature professor, caught in a relentless, alien, culture homogenising empire, that did not have a word for integrity, or honour, or equality, or freedom or intrinsic or family or whatever... The keeper of the secrets of chaucer, shakespear, even dickens and twain.
posted
Well for that...it used to happen a good deal more often and quite a bit faster than is usually the case today.
As for the arbitrary quality of human language, I'll point out that rf's interpretation, however humorous, is very nearly literally true in most important respects. Despite that, the connotations of the vocabulary and limitations of human-centric concepts no doubt make it seem like an improbable scenario and suggest ludicrous notions to the typical reader. And most human languages would actually do worse at making sense of my situation.
And hoptoad has a point as well. English seems to lack any specific concepts for the qualities of sentient existence that I regard as essential. I haven't encountered likely candidates in other languages either. Whatever, I make do with what I've got.
posted
I take your point about the speed of cultural assimilation in the past. Assimilate or die. We have examples in Ireland, Central and South America, Australia almost, if not, every place on earth.
But I didn't mean the whole 'cross or the sword' thing. I meant those creeping coils, the cultural earworms that burrow into the mind, colonising thought. They are so much faster today fuelled as they are by the power of modern media and communications. Information afterburners leaving scorchmarks through our brains
[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited April 18, 2005).]
posted
Hmmm..."cultural earworms that burrow into the mind," what a Wrath of Khan image.
I don't think this really happens. On being exposed to different concepts, the existing concepts are only endangered insofar as they are either definitely inferior in value to the individual or not understood by the individual. While it is true that traditional concepts are usually not understood by the young, the normal process by which they become understandable is by contrast with the results of other concepts. So in those cases, the process of apprehension of the concept is actually accellerated by "competition" with the heterodox concept.
But my main point is that the underlying values of human traditions are defined by the character of humans, not by local peculiarities of language and vocabulary. The argument that we are losing unique traditional concepts because of loss of linguistic diversity is actually an attempt to undermine the fundamental concepts of traditional values altogether by claiming that they are not basic to all human societies.
It remains a fact that the preservation of one's own heritage is a core value of humanity. But the preservation of another's heritage is not a core value of humanity. There is an element of the idea from Plato's The Republic here, that each culture should be preserved and nurtured by the heirs of a different culture (or of no culture at all), so as to eliminate the variable of unique attachment and devotion to that culture.
The secret eugenic program which was the motivation for the creche scheme outlined in The Republic is sinister enough. But I believe the real purpose behind this desire that cultural "conservation" be handed over to disinterested "experts" (to avert some imagined catastrophic loss of "diversity") is even more dangerous.
To humans, at any rate. I'm not particularly concerned one way or another, but I'd prefer to keep my hands clean for now. Blood can stain or it can cleanse, and those who know the difference are wise.
posted
Earworm (Ohrwurm) is a german term referring to those songs that get stuck in your head. They get stuck even if you disagree or detest them. They get stuck even if you want them out of your head. They coil through the mind and even though there are a number of reasons why, the main one is repetition. A kind of harmonic reinforcement of the psyche, (very tesla-esque). Exposure is the key, not assent.
Posts: 1683 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
That is what I meant by cultural earworms. Those ideas that creep in unnoticed simply by repetition and not because they have any merit of themselves. (Unless ease of repetition is considered a virtue.)
Edit: Having said all that, I have to agree with Survivor that often the 'experts' are the least desirable stewards.
[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited April 18, 2005).]
posted
I may have been hasty in saying it doesn't really happen, that there are no such things. In my experience, it doesn't happen. I don't know whether or not something like this really works on humans. Some of what I've observed would tend to fit such an idea, but I think that simple intellectual laziness accounts for most of it. Humans like to adopt ideas that don't require a lot of effort. An idea that is constantly available in the surrounding cultural context requires very little personal effort for maintenance.
I observe that many humans never adopt some ideas distasteful to them, even though those ideas are constantly available. This is particularly true if the rejected idea is complex or calls for some sort of personal investment of time/effort if accepted. Since the Ohrwurm theory doesn't account for this and the "humans are lazy" theory does, I tend towards the latter. Besides, we already know that humans are lazy.
posted
[digression]In my day job,providing healthcare services for chronically mentally ill persons, we find that we have to reinvent the language several times a day, as our customers develop ideosyncratic communication styles.
Memetics: the study of evolutionary methods of information transfer.
posted
Wow, Keldon, that's a lot of info on an interesting subject. I'm impressed by the bold speculations on airy subjects. Or to put it another way -
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