*Waves* Hi matthew!

At that point there was some discussion as to the appropriateness of having kids on the adult board. Some objected, some were OK with it.

I'll just get it right out in the open and say that I'm NOT OK with it. My reasons are many and varied.

Am I advocating banning them?

No.

However, it might be nice if we helped direct them on those finer points of conduct here at Hatrack that will make their inclusion easier on all of us.

I'll start:

If you can act responsibly and maturely (and honestly), great... please do. This is not GameFAQs or some other site where immaturity is encouraged.

Thanks.

Frankly, I'd prefer to keep it that way. It's not that I have anything against kids and I'm not too old to understand some of this slang (although our community does not use it, probably because we're writers whatever we're doing), but we have adult topics here and I don't want to have to hold back. I don't even want to try to remember what's ok for a 13-year-old to hear and what's not.

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I thought this board was only for people 189 and older.

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Really? That old? Man, I'm going to have to wait another hundred and seventy or so years before I'm officially old enough to be on this forum.

when I first joined the board I was only fifteen (I joined under a different name, several years ago). I felt I would get more out of the adult boards than the younger ones. I don't know how it is now, but I had to have some correspondence with Kathleen before I joined. I'm personally very thankful that she let me because I have learned a lot from these forums. I never had anybody comment on my age (or at least try to redirect me to the younger forums). I don't know if that is because I didn't tell anybody, I tried not to sound immature, or because I didn't act immature.

That said, my feelings on the issue are:

If a person (regardless of their age) can handle himself/herself and act like a mature adult, then they should be allowed to stay. Accordingly, we should treat them like adults and not discount their opinions merely on the basis of age or perceived inexperience. If, however, they start acting immature or uppity then it's fine to talk to them about it (but I would suggest e-mail, instead of publicly attacking them on the boards) and maybe suggest that they move to the younger boards.

I think that if someone is wrong, they should be told that you think they are wrong and why you think that. They should not be told that someone older and more experienced knows more than them so they should shut up (even if it might be true).

On a simple note: I agree that immature behavior has no place on this board and if you want to engage in it, leave. I'm not okay with kids on the board, I'm okay with adults who happen to be younger than 18.

My two cents.

Jon

[This message has been edited by bladeofwords (edited June 16, 2005).]

I hit the dreaded 3-0 this year.

Dakota, you know that whatever you post, I say "ditto." So, there. I said it again.

In droves, I think.

Don't you remember being fifteen? Didn't you, as I, think you were SOOOOO mature (add Valley accent)?

My deepest darkest fear is that this workshop will go the way of the Young Writer's Workshop. Immaturity pervaded over there and the abuses kept the mature ones from being able to participate in ANY meaningful way.

I like the idea of running them all through Kathleen, but I doubt she has the time for that. Even if she did, this workshop depends on the honor system for honesty in reporting your age and other information--as was evidenced by one youngster who recently 'confessed' to only being sixteen and that he had lied about it earlier.

Whoops! There goes your maturity!

I agree with you dakota, I just want to give them the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps there is some other way to screen them besides making Kathleen do even more work?

I don't know how to solve the 'screening' problem. Maybe if we let them in for a trial period, then had the existing members vote (in or out)? I suppose we already do that in way by spanking or ignoring those who violate our Hatrack sensibilities.

BUT! Back to topic please.

How can our young friends make themselves at home here without making themselves a nuisance?

Here's a good one for everyone, not just the youngsters, but that the youngsters, just by nature of being young, sometimes overlook:

Hatrack is about gaining by giving. That means that you should make a serious effort to contribute more to the Hatrack community than you take. Which means, make sure you are critiquing and commenting on the work of others AT LEAST as much as you are posting for critique and comment of your own work. To do otherwise is just plain selfish, IMHO, of course.

I do not think we should cut any slack, however. This has been, and should remain, a forum of (mostly) mature individuals. Any kid, or any adult for that matter, who doesn't like being treated like an adult, won't stay. We just have to make sure that we treat everyone like an adult.

I was, in fact, going to start a thread somewhat similar to this one when I'd finished reading all the posts that I haven't seen yet. However, it would have been specifically about using the language properly. Kids aren't the only ones who fail to capitalize, and use sentences like "C U B4 8", though it does seem more common among the younger age group. The point is that this is a writer's workshop. It's even called that. So, let's write it right, ok? This little bit of advice is something that needs to mentioned on here every now and then (and it did even before the Young Writers Workshop folded). Specifically:

* Spell out words, rather than using letters or numbers to represent words or syllables. You're not on the telephone, you've got an entire keyboard. Use it.
* The key next to the 'Z' on the left and the one next to the '?' on the right--that's for making capital letters. Use it at the beginnings of sentences, for proper names, and for the pronoun "I".
* Don't forget your commas.

I could go on, but you get the idea (and if you don't then there's no point going on, is there?) I should say that acronymic phrases, such as LOL, ROFL, IIRC (although it took me months to figure out what that last one meant) seem to be all right. (Also, note the spelling of "all right". "Alright" is not poor usage, it's poor spelling. It's like spelling "through" as "thru". There are plenty of editors who will use the appearance of "alright" on the first page as an excuse to toss your submission back into its SASE. While "alright" is becoming more acceptable, and may be commonly accepted in as little as twenty years, it hasn't happened yet.)

In short, anyone--whether under 18, over 189, or somewhere in between--should try to write like a writer. And anyone who asks for a critique needs to be willing to take what gets dished out to them. And anyone who offers poor advice needs to be willing to learn from the backlash they'll receive. And anyone who just makes immature comments needs to be ready to be ignored.

As far as I'm concerned, if they'll follow those rules (as well as the common rules of courtesy), I don't care how old they are.

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IIRC (although it took me months to figure out what that last one meant)

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Cutsie-pie is not cute.

That said, I agree with Jon. A person's age shouldn't matter; their behavior should. I started the whole internet thing when I was 14, and I never told my real age just because I recognized some people felt that way. NO ONE ever guessed I was under age, let alone that much. I was treated with respect, but no one shied away from steering me right when needed, either.

The main problem I've noticed on WRITER'S FORUMS in particular is that often kids don't recognize constructive criticism for what it is. Of course, at that age, just about everything's personal anyway. I'll see someone post for crits, then spend the whole time defending themselves instead of taking it with a grain of salt, learning, growing, and improving. To me, that's abusing the board. When people misuse or misunderstand the purpose, then I feel it's not a good fit, regardless of age, and others should speak up. (As someone said, personal email is often best).

As long as a person is respectful and uses the board as it was intended, I have no problem with them. My first story was published when I was 7. If I'd had a good writer's group ever since then, I'd be a HECK of a lot better than I am now.

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My first story was published when I was 7

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franc li, I think putting actions in colons is fine, as long as things are spelled correctly.

Bottom line here is, there are people here who know how to write, and are a few lucky breaks from making it. There are also newbies who can learn a great deal from keeping their mouths shut if they have nothing to say.

We all could have learned a great deal from a 15-year-old Harlan Ellison, and virtually nothing from some other people much older.

That being said, 15-year-olds of Harlan Ellison's caliber are few in number.

The only way I know somebody's age is if they tell me, but I will certainly make a biased opinion if tHeY wRiTe lIkE tHiS or use shorthand that wouldn't fit in a manuscript.

It basically comes down to this: Some people have something to say, other people have to say something.

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Boy, it's a good thing that I have not as of yet released my age on this forum. I may be one of the youngest here.

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I would not want to be inadvertantly talking to a thirteen-year-old on this board about a subject I would hesitate to discuss with my own thirteen-year-old.

If this board is KNOWINGLY including people younger than 18 without telling us about it, but rather letting us believe otherwise, and if admission of these children is predicated upon a subjective analysis of their 'maturity' based on a few passable emails, then I feel mad and foolish about it; like I've been had.

Kathleen, tell me it is not true.

I was one of those kids who could have been an active member of a board like this with very few if any people aware that I was underage. So I do have a soft spot for people who are older than their years. If we treat the kids as adults, and expect them to act like adults, then they will either do so or find somewhere else that is more comfortable. It requires a certain amount of vigilance on the part of the adults, but no more than dealing with the occasional wackos who show up with the intent to disrupt the boards.

At any rate, that is my opinion. I don't really feel that strongly one way or the other. Ultimately, the decision rests with She-Who-Must-Be-Obeyed.

--Mel

Oh, and I'm 24. I have a 30-year-old sister-in-law who thinks of me as an older sister. People consistently guess my age as around 27 or so.

And don't go Phanto. I'm sure your a super guy--or gall :P You've been a member waaay longer than me. You might even be smarter! But shhh, Don't tell anybody, kay.

I only do not care about me being "outed" in such a horrible fashion because of the minor fact that I hardly ever post here anymore.

My few postings here tend to be drive-by editings of postings in the feedback forums. I tend to make comments like "this is not effective," and "too many adjectives."

Careful the kids might hear...

At the risk of getting on my high horse (or staying up here as the case may be); was there a procedure? I can't remember. Maybe under eighteens should get the boot, regardless. There is a young writers forum specifically for them, isn't there?

PS: MEL

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Oh, and I'm 24. I have a 30-year-old sister-in-law who thinks of me as an older sister. People consistently guess my age as around 27 or so.

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Have you ever thought that maybe you just LOOK three years older than you really are.

(Thats the first time I've ever used the "BIG GRIN" emoticon, even if it was a cheap-shot)

for my part i will say that i do not see anything wrong with a lack of capitalization. that shift key is just too far away! i can assure you that i use proper capitalization where it matters: in a manuscript.

irregular capitalization, leet speak, over-use of 'net slang, etc. all that stuff, on the other hand DEFINITELY does not belong.

PS: capitalization of certain words, when on a message board, is used as a way of stressing a certain point. excessive capitalization, like, an entire sentence, is known as yelling, and that is off limits.

PPS: i am 19, if that matters to anyone. and Phanto... i've always thought you were in like your mid-twenties! so you may most definitely stay, you're one of the "Peter's" or uhm, i forgot Ender's sister's name, or "Ender's" or "Bean's" or "Petra's" appearantly

This bugs me. I still love her, though, despite her obvious flaw in this regard.

In the days of yore, we used to follow the present-day German method of capitalizing all of our nouns (or most of them). Imagine the grief our Shift-key challenged friends would get if English still required that convention. Of course, if we did revert to capitalizing our nouns, then perhaps noun recognition would be a heck of a lot easier for school children. Oh, well. They'll deal.

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And anyone who asks for a critique needs to be willing to take what gets dished out to them.

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rickfisher also said:

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(Also, note the spelling of "all right". "Alright" is not poor usage, it's poor spelling. It's like spelling "through" as "thru". There are plenty of editors who will use the appearance of "alright" on the first page as an excuse to toss your submission back into its SASE. While "alright" is becoming more acceptable, and may be commonly accepted in as little as twenty years, it hasn't happened yet.)

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You might be interested to know this from Random House:

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from:http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19990604 - "The Maven's Word of the Day":
The spelling of all right--or more appropriately the spelling of alright, since the former is never questioned--is one of the Great Usage Debates of recent times.

Forms like all right, in whatever spelling, were around in the Middle English period, and then died out for no obvious reason. They reappeared in the early eighteenth century; it is uncertain whether all right was a re-coinage, or whether we just have no written evidence for four hundred years.

In modern times, the form alright is first found in the 1890s. Presumably, it was created and/or popularized based on analogy with such words as already and altogether. These spellings, though, had been long established by that time, while alright, being newer, could be criticized. And criticized it was, from the early 1900s onwards.

Usage writers and copy editors (and schoolteachers) tend to really, really hate alright. Some of the comments one can collect from them are "horrendous," "ignorant," "illiterate," "over my dead body," "lazy," and the like. This hostility has not changed much in recent years, despite the ever-increasng frequency of the form.

It has always been true that the form alright has been more common in non-formal contexts. But it has also been used for the better part of the century by undoubtedly notable writers. Theodore Dreiser used it through the manuscript for The "Genius", though H.L. Mencken made him change it to all right. Other alright users include James Joyce in Ulysses, Flannery O'Connor, Mordecai Richler, Langston Hughes, and Gertrude Stein.

While in general, alright can be found in all the senses of all right, in practice there can be a real semantic distinction between the two, because the two word form all right can mean 'all correct' or something like that, while alright can only mean 'good; safe; healthy', etc. when used as an adjective. (Similar distinctions are found with already and all ready, though these forms have diverged to the point where they are not interchangable at all.) Thus the sentence "The Kids Aren't All Right" can mean 'not all the kids are right', or 'some of the kids are wrong', while "The Kids Aren't Alright" can only mean 'the kids are not OK'

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[This message has been edited by Meenie (edited June 17, 2005).]

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My wife refuses to type any capitals unless it is something formal or work-related. She claims, "I don't speak in capitals, therefore I don't type them."

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That's funny, HSO
Does she speak with commas, periods,exclamations,question marks?

I think what he meant by the comment about taking what's dished out is that many immature writers are offended by ANY comment other than, "OOH! That was, like, SOOO cool!"

As for mature content, I think that if they are able to have a mature discussion they are probably mature enough to handle it. Granted, some parents may not want their children exposed to it regardless. My parents told me all the facts of life <i>long</i> before my friends found out. In fact there are many things that I don't remember <i>not</i> knowing. Some kids are like this. Is it possible that we could have some sort of parental consent for minors who sign up? This could be lied about (just as the under-18 question could be) but at least it would be something. Just a thought.

I will say, when I was younger, I NEVER read YA books. I've been reading adult books since I was 10 and got over Nancy Drew and Babysitter's Club. Age should not automatically mean maturity. I was a huge fan of the Earth's Children series by JM Auel, which frankly discusses sex and even a rape scene. I liked those books, so I read William Sarabande, who had a brother and sister become intimate. I devoured anything by Stephen King, and he's written about nearly every vulgar thing imaginable. --Etc. Etc.-- And I could rationally discuss writers' works with a level of maturity that many older folks could not.

As I said, I think we should base our opinions of others on their behavior and attitudes, not their age. I don't even care how old they are. I do care if they're too immature to behave appropriately with the adults. Otherwise, there are many forums out there for Young Writers. (May 2005 Writer's Digest has the 101 best websites for writers and specifically marks any with a Young Writer forum). If they have come here instead, it must be because they are not getting what they need at those sites.

For the record, I don't give my age. But I'm old enough to have kids, yet young enough to keep having them! That gives a rather wide range, I think. Age is irrelevant, and a lady never tells anyway. Obviously I am young enough to at one point have read the Babysitter's Club, a fact which still haunts me to this very day...

For me, I don't really care how old anyone posting here is (and, as has been pointed out already, KDW has no control over who reads this site). I don't even care how "old" anyone here writes (though I do get a tickle out of those good old usages, yeah...back when being literate meant something).

I do care about punctuation. It's just as bad as spelling things wrong. Sure, a minor lapse now and again is only to be expected, but consistently using poor punctuation. is like--putting barriers, in the way of you're. reader's

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You have at least one person here who has been published in Analog, at least one who has a novel manuscript under consideration for publication, one who had interest from Hollywood on a story outline, and one who place high in Writers of the Future.

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As for "all right", the excerpt you posted proves my point, which is that

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This hostility has not changed much in recent years, despite the ever-increasng frequency of the form.

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NO one will take exception to the spelling of "all right", whereas loads of people will take exception to "alright". If someone really wants to promote the spelling of "alright", they need to use "all right" until they're famous enough that they can insist on "alright" without having it negatively affect their potential readership. To do otherwise is to act foolishly. (Note, folks, I'm not saying to "be foolish" which would be a personal insult. Everyone occasionally acts in a foolish manner, often for reasons that do not stem from lack of intellect. All it means is that our wise, rational decision-making skills do not always win out over our emotional and contrary natures, and probably just as well, in some cases. But my opinion in this case stands.)