I recall a Harvad Literature professor who gave an interview on JK Rowling and her success with Harry Potter. He said her writing was terrible and that it wouldn't last. I was fascinated because he also maintained that Joyce's Ulysses was great literature. I disagreed, not becasue I am better educated or have more experience (I am not and I don't), but because I found Ulysses incredibly dry and I love reading the Harry Potter books because they are fun. Atlas Shrugged is a best seller in spite of Rand spending 72 pages - 72! - saying the same thing over and over and over - and as if that weren't enough, she does the same thing AGAIN later on in the story.

Granted, SF/F readers and writer's are different, but many principles are the same. Some books that we don't like sell. We can say the writing is bad or give whatever reason we want, but that does not change the fact that someone - a LOT of someone's - bought those bad books for a reason. Underneath all that bad writing there must be something good and we should try to isolate that good and use it to our advantage.

I read The Scarlet Pimpernel and it was awful. I mean really bad - the movie was a wonderful adaption - but the book was a stinker. Yet that story has endured. It was the story that survived such a terrible telling. The principle of a good story pulled that one through and I think a good story will save most problems, not all, but most.

Just because we dislike the writing of a successful writer doesn't make their writing bad. Maybe we are simply not seeing the principles they have used effectively.

And, in doing so, we develop a sense for what sells.

Flaws.

Flaws are what makes characters, what makes plots deviate enough from the obvious to become interesting.

But those exceptional cases aside, there are plenty of poorly written books that do very well, and that don't receive big marketing pushes. In fact for marketing to even get heavily involved then the book has to have achieved considerable success on its own (as I believe was the case with the Harry Potter books, though I stand to be corrected).

Yes, we spend a lot of time here advising novices on how to make their writing "more publishable". We celebrate those who are making their first professional sales. We talk about the marketplace and encourage writers to write for readers, not just for themselves.

But merely getting published is a very low bar. Anyone can do it. You don't even have to commit horrible crimes, though that does help.

I assume that people on this board are looking for more than advice about how to scam a few dollars out of an overly self-indulgent public. I assume that you're looking for ways to really communicate your unique vision to others, to really touch their hearts, to create something beautiful.

Does anyone think that a best-selling work couldn't possibly be hack-written trash? Why do you think there is even such a thing as "hack writing"? Because it pays, of course. No, you can't just write crap and sell it, you have to write the crap that someone is willing to buy, but if you're willing to do that, it's easy enough.

It may have to do with certain payoffs (Dumbledore finally telling the Dursleys what's what), but I think it's mostly better pacing and more interesting prose.

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You crack me up, Mr. Writing Person. A lot better! ha!

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I thought the first Harry Potter pretty good, but haven't been inspired (yet) to read what came after. Again, maybe someday...

As for books and movies---I've seen at least three adaptations of "The Prisoner of Zenda," two of them pretty good, but none of them were as good as I found the book to be.

I've also read SF stories, that I thought were absolutely awful, that went out and won awards in the field.

20 years ago, when I was in high school [yikes!], one of our required reading books was Fahrenheit 451. I attempted to read it twice, then gave up because I didn't care, and finally, out of necessity, settled on the Cliff Notes version for my book report. I recall thinking that it was a crappy book. (Bizarrely, I loved Of Mice and Men, also required reading that year.)

Boy, was I wrong about Fahrenheit 451. A month ago I read it and loved it and now heartily recommend it as "required reading." I get it now, of course, because I'm older, my tastes have changed, and because I have a sincere desire to learn more about the craft of writing. Because I have a more informed view of the world around me, I understood the scenarios and subtext in Ray's book. But as teenager, I could not have cared less -- despite that even then I was writing fiction -- because I didn't have a wide enough world view; because I was inexperienced; because... well, a lot of things.

That said, I find Victorian-era stories thoroughly enjoyable these days. I love the writing style as it was back then, and while I enjoy modern fiction every bit as much as the Victorian works, I am often saddened by the abundance of modern works that are arguably simpler in form. Times change, cultures evolve, and therefore so does prose and style. I don't really mind, but my only irrational fear is that in the not-too-distant future, we'll see prose and dialogue in novels written as such:

"btw george i was j/k b4."

george *grins*

"thats alright d00d" he said "b/c i pwned joo @ teh m4ll.!!..!"

"we kewl?"

"w00t!"

.....

I think the primary reason it has such appeal is that it filled a gap in rather bland market of the 1950's. While the literary crowd was generally being obscure, depressing, bohemian, or some combination of the three, here was a book that had genuine heroics by the likes of businessmen (and women!) and engineers.

I also have at least one very ancient 5" floppy disk (is that right? It's one of those that is about as big as a 45rpm single...but not quite as old), and it has things that I'm sure I'd like to read again, for the laughs. (Actually, by now it probably just has spider webs and a few hazardous sticky spots.)

I dislike John Barnes's style of writing. I wouldn't call it beautiful. He also describes sex, not in emotional terms, but in terms of body parts, using the official latinate names. Sometimes I feel like I'm reading a medical text! But I really love his stories. Earth Made of Glass is very high on my list, despite stylistic problems.

I'm off to convert my latest science fiction draft RIGHT NOW.

As for romance, there are some good ones, too, I think. Some of the historicals take you to interesting places and throw in a lot of detail (some of those writers spent a lot of time at the library), and I'm not ashamed to say I think Laura Kinsale's characters are interesting and appealing.

Most men wouldn't even recognize what women like about romance novels, just as most women have almost no idea what men see in porn. And romance novels that have serious artistic merit are as rare as porn that can make the same claim.

To borrow from the late Bill Hicks:

The U.S. Supreme Court has defined pornography as anything that has no artistic merit and causes sexual thoughts.

Well, that's nearly every television commercial.
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EDIT: For the record, I'm neither pro- nor anti-porn. I simply see it as a non issue when there are so many more important things to consider, such as the government consistently infringing on personal freedom of choice, telling us what's good for us and what isn't. Anyone who tells you what to think is essentially practicing fascism. Think about that for a while and pornography will plummet to the bottom of your priortized list of things to worry about.

(The following comments are not about mainstream or genre romances. They are about Harlequin and similar romance novels.)

Porn for women. In the sense that they can be highly addicting and play off of women's basic needs in a relationship, yes, that's an accurate description.

Another similarity is that the female character, though necessarily believable so the reader can identify with her, isn't nearly as important as the male character... the "hero". Because -- just like those women in porn mags -- the man in a romance novel is never just a man. He's an idealized version. And it should be noted that good looks and some experience with sex is only a small portion of what makes for a good romance hero. If you make a list of the qualities the male character has you'll find: confidence, a sense of humor, an adventurous spirit without getting stupid (or if he does make a stupid mistake have it be something understandable and/or endearing), intelligence (see previous) and -- most importantly -- a complete fascination with the woman he'll end up with by the end of the story.

I've always felt sorry for teens who have been saturated in this stuff. Expecting most men to be like the heros in a trashy romance is like expecting most women to be just like porn queens... very disappointing.

I don't think the issue is whether they're publishable, it's whether it'd be any good.

Just like I could post pictures of naked women on the internet, but I don't want to post pictures of naked women on the internet. I'm sure the same applies to most of us, even those who claim to not have a problem with it.

There used to be this girl at my high school who was quite insistent that she would be a famous writer someday and would make good on the years of maligning endured by the romance novel industry by giving them credit for teaching her to write. So I find this whole discussion particularly bizarre.

What is considered a romance novel? Well, I haven't actually read any except for Jane Austen's. I take that back, I read the novelization of "Romancing the Stone."

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And that, however effortless it is to churn out cheap romance novels, it's far easier to turn out pictures of naked women.

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I just want to point out that I didn't say it was effortless. I said, no matter how effortless it may (or may not) be, dirty pictures are easier. If you don't have a camera (or lack access to naked women), turning out dirty pictures isn't totally free of effort either, eh?

So what I actually said was that writing romance novels is harder than drawing good looking naked women. And guess what? We all agree. Beth, just read my posts before you start to argue about how wrong I am. Not that I never say anything that can be argued, but it's a waste of time to get huffy about something I didn't say.