posted
Book one's antagonist is a young man with some egomaniac tendencies. I have a scene where he rapes a young woman and my MC witnesses part of it. The antag threatens the girls life if the Protag doesnt leave. The protag has seen him torture and kill an animal before and knows he will kill her if he needs to. So at the tender age of 14 he walks away from the girl and the Antag. A reader is saying it lowers her opinion of the MC and she thinls he is bad for not doing something about it. Is she right or is the scene okay? what do you guys think?
posted
It all depends on how it is written. The MC is only 14 at the time, you said? And he fervently believes that if he doesn't do as the antagonist asks, then the girl is going to die? And if he does leave the room, the girl will be raped, but will not be killed? If these are the essentials, I can definitely envision understanding the MC's motivations, if properly laid out before me.
Can't really say any more without reading the scene. As is the case so many times, the devil's in the details. Either you, as the author, convince me that the MC is reluctantly doing what he thinks is in the girl's best interest, or you don't convince me.
If you're actually looking for more opinions on the scene itself (and it's not horribly horribly long) feel free to email me with it and I'll let you know if the scene feels convincing to me.
posted
I would think more of the MC if he truly had no choice but to see the girl killed. It would show that he was not foolhardy and not so idealistic that he couldn't choose the lesser evil.
It might take some work to be convincing about the MC's choices. Is the threat immediate or "I'll get her later?" Can the antag take him in a fight? You present the antag as older. Is he larger than the MC, so the MC probably couldn't interfere physically? Any weapons around? How quickly could the antag kill the girl? I can imagine such alternatives flashing through the MCs mind and his feeling of helplessness building as he rejects the options.
posted
This sounds a fair bit like a scene from The Kite Runner. The key with this, if you're certain that the MC has to leave the scene (if you've already written it, then I think that's the way it should go, because your first instincts about major plot things tend to be right) then you need to deal with the aftermath. How does he feel about this girl? What does happen to her? If she raped? Killed? Does she manage to fight him off herself? How does your MC handle this? Does it effect him in years to come? Is it a blind spot he had afterwards, always rushing to help people in need regardless of the odds because he feels he needs to make up for the one time he was a coward?
These are the sorts of questions that interest me. Not could he find a weapon and force the Ant. off of the girl, could he take him in a fight, etc. Does this scene make you think less of the MC? Well... yes, I suppose. Is that what it's supposed to do, though? Are we supposed to see him emasculated by the Ant. in front of this girl, only to have him spend the remainder of the book trying to redeem himself?
Your MC might be bad for doing nothing about the rape. Your reader might have a lower opinion of him. You need to decide if these are responses you want to draw out from a reader.
posted
The first rule is that the reader is never wrong. The second rule is that the reader is never wrong, except when he is.
Okay, I believe your premise that someone can walk away from a scene of violence. I believe that he can keep his mouth shut afterwards. It happens all the time. Murders are committed, but witnesses don't speak up. Sometimes its out of fear of the criminals, sometimes its out of mistrust of the police.
So, if your reader didn't buy the scene, then you either found the one reader that won't get it, or you didn't do the scene right. Let's assume its the latter (because its easier to fix you're writing than fix your reader).
Here's some things you can do to make the scene more believable: 1. Make sure we understand how much violence your antag is capable of. Don't just show us in his mistreatment of the animal, also show us his attitude. A good example is Ender's Game and the way Ender's brother treated him. I honestly believed he was capable of extreme violence.
2. Make your law enforcement seem unsympathetic. Maybe they are friends with the antag. Maybe they believe the rape victim sleeps around (even if she doesn't). Establish this before hand.
3. Your protag should be weak at this point. I think that's what you're getting at. Make sure we know how weak he is. Make sure we know he has no confidence and people pick on him.
4. Make sure that in the scene of the rape that the antag can and will kill the victim if the protag doesn't leave. Show us the protag's thought process. We need to believe that he believes that this girl will die if he tries something, and it would be better that this would happen than she dies.
posted
Well, everyone has make their own decisions about plots. There was a debate about how bad it is to mention the word scrotum in a YA on this forum recently. It was agreed I think that this kind of thing an author has to decide, but that some people will react negatively.
Some people will react negatively to using rape as a plot device. That may very well be what you are running into. This is an issue that many women do not consider frivolous.
That doesn't mean you can't use it. It does mean that you have to be realistic that some people will react negatively, some very much so especially if it is seen as being treated lightly.
quote:A reader is saying it lowers her opinion of the MC and she thinls he is bad for not doing something about it.
An MC who is broken and cowardly, yet tries to do good and rejects his brokenness and cowardice can be a very strong and credible character. He can be more powerful than the squeaky clean ones.
That being said, I came up with a little rule after struggling with a play I was writing: You can make a character do contradictory things--but you can't make a character do things contrary to his *nature*.
So I think you should simply ask yourself: Is this action within the nature of this character?
(Okay--maybe it's not that simple, but it might be helpful all the same.)
posted
A main character can do bad things sometimes, but I think they should be likable overall. Even if not, I feel it's important they be interesting. Maybe the reader doesn't like what he does, but they'll probably feel sympathy if he doesn't like what he does, either.
I think Showing the character struggle with the decision is important.
He probably has an inner conflict because the voice of reason and the voice of emotion are at odds. Reason says walk away and she won't die. Anything is better than dying, right? I can't stop this from happening.
Emotion says this is wrong and you have to try to do something.
Reason might even counter by saying he can do something later--notify the authorities or even call them straightway.
And if he finds some sort of redemption later, it may turn out to be even better in the end. I'm not sure what kind of redemption there might be for him, though. I don't know the story.
quote:A main character can do bad things sometimes, but I think they should be likable overall.
As a big fan of Graham Greene (he might even be my number one favorite author), I would declare thee anathema for that, except that I have absolutely no authority in the Church of Hatrack.
Seriously, though, he has several works where the MC is truly unlikable--yet he draws you into them. The result is a deeply penetrating look at the character, and his stories are riveting because of it. (Titles--except where it doesn't matter--withheld to avoid SPOILERS)
In The End of an Affair he has an MC who is spiteful through and through, and determined to expose the wife of a colleague for her sexual indiscretions with other men--even though he also had an affair with her. Yet, it's one of my favorite books.
In another his MC basically helps some political radicals kidnap a friend of his, though it was sort of by mistake. He's a pathetic character, but the story is all the better for it.
In another great one, the MC betrays the guy who stole his girl and sets him up for assassination. (It's been made into a movie--twice.)
One of his most famous works has an adulterous "whiskey priest," who pathetically wanders the back country of Mexico avoiding the police. (The Church was banned and priests were executed at the time of the story.)
Another that has been made into a movie has a ruthless, self-serving hitman with a grotesque hairlip for an MC.
Yet another MC is a man who lost in drawing lots--three men out of thirty had to be killed to thin out the over-crowded prison. He traded all his riches for another to take his place. He then--for less than honorable reasons--infiltrated the dead man's family who had inherited his money.
He has tons of pathetic characters as leads--and the man is a master.
Still--you are certainly right that the leads do have to be interesting. Part of the interest can be the glimmers of hope or frustration or redemption or conversion or some mysterious ambiguity about a very pathetic and overall *not* likable character.
posted
I'm inclined to think that in real life, walking away from the situation may be a viable option. But I don't know if I'd have any empathy for Protag if it happened in a story. (It might work better as backfill, part of the character's background and history, not part of the story before us.)
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posted
Your protag should carry this guilt for a long time. It should eat at him.
I think an MC can be an unlikeable person. You don't have to like the MC, if they're written right. They can be a person who saves lives, but is a jerk on the side. If you do it like that then whenever he does something genuinely nice, your audience will swoon.
posted
You guys are way cool. Thanks, you have made me think about it alot.
So a few things:
Edited to say: that the rape scene comes in a dream, as a reaction to news that his best friend has to get married. He is wondering why he reacts so vehemently to the news. Then he has the dream AGAIN.
This scene sets Protag as a considerate guy but not super human. There are things he does in the book that make him better than human, and this I feel, tempers him...
The antag is needed through out the book w/o him the book has no bad guy.
At 13 he does belive that the antag will kill her. The antags past and current temperment clues the Protag into believing she'd be dead in a few seconds if he moves any closer. He considers his options as he stands and looks at her eyes which plead for help.
The threat is immediate, the Antag out sizes him and there are no avaliable weapons.
It effects him permanently, he feels it all the time and dreams the scene again and again.
He redemes <sp> himself the antag is caught and the protag testifies against him later in the book.
He feels even more protective towards women after the few incidences, and it effects his entire life.
Thanks again ~D
[This message has been edited by I am destiny (edited August 09, 2007).]
posted
There are many who would say that walking away from a scene of sexual violence rather than doing something (calling authorities, intervening, etc.) is always the wrong thing to do.
Rape is a hot-button issue. Is there a compelling reason you need to use it? I have been up front about this in the past. For me, the known existence of a rape scene in a book or movie will make me put it down/walk away. While I know these things happen in real life, that doesn't mean I have to live through it vicariously in the entertainment I choose to engage in. Any woman who has been through any sort of sexual violence or violation of any kind will likely react the same way, and many of those who have not. A shocking number, FWIW, horrifying, and a whole different subject.
You're the writer - write what you're drawn to write, but as a reader, I offer my opinion that very rarely is a rape scene necessary (or at least not a horrific one that traumatizes both victim and bystander) - and at the very least I can encourage you to allude to the details and spare us the gore. We get that the guy is evil, really, we do (or will/would.)
Just one opinion, but yes, I can understand your reader's point of view. I think you've got some great ideas in here if you choose to rewrite the scene, but wanted to offer a dramatically different point of view.
posted
KayTi, nothing graphic happens in the scene. The protag sees the antag w/ the girl words are exchanged and the protag leaves. I'm not trying to satisfy some perverted gratutitous desire. I wouldnt go that direction. I'm trying to do two things, one establish the antag level of evilness, and the protag humanness and respect for women.
I understand that some readers will not like the scene. It is a price at the moment that I'm willing to pay....
Just wanted to reasure you ~Destiny
[This message has been edited by I am destiny (edited August 09, 2007).]
posted
Showing a rape shows respect for women? That is a rather bizarre way of looking at it. Or is what you are trying to say that in your book women are helpless and victims and that in this scene you are setting this up?
[This message has been edited by JeanneT (edited August 09, 2007).]
posted
I think perhaps that the full tone and feeling of this particular scene is being missed by all of us who are only seeing a brief description of the characters and events. At first blush it seems a little cool and detached, but I'm sure the escene itself it handled much closer, with a lot more emotions, etc.
I too wonder how, by leaving her there to be raped, your MC expresses his respect for women - maybe it's more clear in the piece itself. I think we're all getting a little warm under the collar because of the topic at hand.... maybe, Destiny, if you could post a section of this particular part, let us see the dialogue, tone, etc, we'll understand a little better.
posted
Edited to say that I got DC'd and it only posted half of what I wrote. I just realized this as I got back on... I hate dial up...
JeanneT: The Protag's decision to walk away and his regret for doing it changes him inside. It forms in him a resolve to protect women and from that moment on, treating them with respect. I do not degrade women in my book, my females are powerfull and strong. Gently: I think you are taking what I am saying out of context?
I feel that the scene is tastefully done. I'm sorry about the topic. I just had a writing concern I never meant to rile anyone up. I was hoping that like other discussions, that we could have a discussion about the scene rather than the subject in the scene.
I'd rather drop it. Then having hurt feelings down the road.
~Destiny, Who is not only a woman, but has been raped and sexually assaulted.
[This message has been edited by I am destiny (edited August 09, 2007).]
quote:I think perhaps that the full tone and feeling of this particular scene is being missed by all of us
I suspect that as well.
Destiny is not talking about any of these things
1--showing a rape scene 2--condoning a rape 3--the idea that failing to prevent a rape indicates respect for women
Destiny is talking about how a terrible choice--an absolute "no-win" situation--has an impact on a character in later life.
I have the impression that the decision was made in the protagonist's past, and that the protagonist is haunted by it in dreams in the story's present.
So the question is whether or not a reader can care about a character who has something like this in his past.
Just out of curiosity, I'd like to know if you all would prefer that the character as a 13-year-old was forced to leave because his own life was threatened and the girl he was forced to leave behind was killed? (In other words, is it the rape that you have a problem with and would other violence be easier for you to read about?)
[This message has been edited by Kathleen Dalton Woodbury (edited August 09, 2007).]
posted
If he's going to walk away you HAVE to make the reader understand why. I know given the basic facts fo the situation that I'd have no respect for someone who walked away in that situation. That does not mean that I couldn't understand and sympathize if you SHOW me why he walked away. I understand the concept of paralyzing fear and how it can affect you.
I know from personal experience that faced with a decision like that I could not and would not walk away. I also know from personal experience why someone would, you have to show the reader that. The gut ripping nauseau and mind numbing horror that facing that kind of decision can cause. You have to show the revulsion he feels as he turns his back and we have to see the heart wrenching resolve in each step he takes. If we understand the pain he feels and his complete belief that he humiliation and abuse is preferable to death.
I have known many women that felt very strongly that they would rather die than submit to rape, I have also known many women that felt the other way and an unfortunate few who, though they were glad to still be alive, admitted that being raped did kill a part of them.
You gotta roll all that up otherwise we just see a weak individual who lacked the resolve to try to stop it.
Regardless of how well you craft the scene there is a percentage of the audience that is going to think less of him, like myself.
posted
I have son that it 12. I hope that he would never have to ben involved in a situation like that, but I'm not sure I could say I would expect him to respond the same way I would expect a grown man to. And I know many people professionally that have been faced with these kinds of choices - as children and adults, and the ramifications of those choices haunt people for the rest of their lives.
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posted
If only a single reviewer complains, maybe it's just a personal thing. If many do, you'd best listen.
I'd say as a general rule, if this is something to illustrate the current state of a character that changes in time (because of shame over the event or some other trigger), it could easily work. If it's a persistent trait (character never gains courage to face injustice despite risk to himself) then I could see where it would taint many reader's opinion of the character and make a sympathetic portrayal difficult.
posted
I will also add that as a writer if you can take an unsympathetic character, then over the course of the novel generate sympathy and understanding for him, that is an achievement and is good writing.
You just have to be careful not to go too far if he is the main protag. Thomas Covenant, is a good example of going too far, I know the character becomes redeemable in the later books, but is such worthless scum in the first book that I could not read more.
Jaime Lannister in the GRRM books is a good example of a pretty awful person that you grow to, almost admire, or at least sympathize with as the books progress.
posted
IMHO I would tend to agreed with KayTi. If I know something like that is coming I will tend to skip over it. I read / go to movies / watch tv not to see real life or even a reflection of it.
If the scene is necessary use it. I can see how it would truly effect the MC and could be a driving motive for future development. But I would be very careful about how you use it. i.e. Don't open with it. Even reading OSC's final book in the Shadow series, If I had not been in a position that I could not have shut the recording off (listening to the audio book) I would not have been able to make it through the death scenes in the Indian villages. It was a necessary evil, but made it very very hard to read.
I know that this comment probably has not helped much.
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