In the Feedback forum, if people ask questions, do you answer? I don't mean argue. I mean respond. Or should I just assume it's all rhetorical. The questions are for me to ponder, not to enlighten the asker?
I'd be happy to enter into a conversation about where something's going and why. But I did read somewhere in the rules about not explaining things to the reader. But if something is being misinterpreted, and you clarify to get additional feedback on fixing it... Is that OK?
posted
Usually the questions are rhetorical. Particularly those that are inserted into the text and go something like:
She (who is she?) opened the door (what kind of door?) and stepped through (to where? Oblivion? The laundry room? The Supreme Court Chambers?)
No need to answer those.
HOWEVER - I find that when I post first 13s I sometimes go back and ask follow-up questions of the critiquers to help hone in on how to repair something they identified.
You're right. Arguing is very off-putting to critiquers. We aren't taking time to give feedback on fragments to mess with someone, nor to make them mad. We're spending the time to help the writer improve their work and because critiquing helps us improve by shining a light on troublespots in our own work. When someone posts replies basically disagreeing with or arguing about the feedback they received (even if they're not disagreeing with me or my points), I personaly find that demotivating and think twice about offering my feedback to their work in the future.
Now, each writer is his/her own captain. They get to decide what to *do* with all that feedback. Just because someone offers suggestions doesn't mean the writer has to take it all. And of course there are times when the critiquers will (respectfully, at least one hopes) disagree with each other. I think that's fine because it helps the writer see that different readers have different points of view.
Hmm...I think I meandered around and about your question, but there's my take on it.
Example from above - "I see some crit'ers gave me feedback that I should name my MC. I didn't name her because she's from this weird cult of the goddess XGTYR, aka the "unpronounceable" and none of them have pronounceable names. They're all known only by pronouns. Do you think I need to introduce this cult earlier (it comes up on page 13) so that the reader knows the reason the characters are only known by pronouns?" LOL
posted
I'd say that the safest thing to do when someone puts a question in their feedback is to act as if they are telling you what questions they had as they read your 13 lines.
If you want the reader to have such questions, then you know you are succeeding with that reader.
If you didn't want the reader to have such questions, then you know you need to fix something.
Just remember that there are three kinds of questions you really don't want your readers to have as they are reading. OSC calls them the "Faith, Hope, and Clarity" questions.
They are "oh, yeah?" (meaning you've got something in there that the reader doesn't accept), "so what?" (meaning that you've got something in there that the reader doesn't care about), and "huh?" (meaning you've got something in there that doesn't make sense to the reader).
You want feedback that points those places out to you, because those kinds of questions are the ones you REALLY need to think about fixing.
You also want feedback that tells you when the readers' eyes started glazing over, or the readers minds started wandering, but the hope is that they won't do that in the first 13 lines, at least.
posted
My advice to you would be to edit your first 13 line draft, and then repost it. (Usually in the same post).
I have found many times that the critiquers will come back and see the revision and say either "I still don't get what you are meaning by this." or "Ok, now I understand. This flows much better."
Let your writing be your response to their questions.
First, if you edit your original 13 lines in the post you put them in first, people will not be able to see the "before" and "after" AND you run the risk of editing away some good stuff. So if you post an edited 13 lines, it might be better to put it in a new reply, and then go to the original post and edit it to say that you've got a new version of the 13 lines further down in the topic.
Second, if you answer questions in discussion instead of in a rewrite, you can run the risk of having your subconscious (or even your "muse") believe that the problem that generated the question has been fixed without the need for a rewrite.
This is one reason why people may resist "simple, open, courteous discussion" of such questions. They are aware that necessary rewrites may fail to happen because of them.
posted
I think also that sometimes questions can be a good thing. I f they are the right questions that is. I have noticed some instances where I felt the questions being asked were questions that a non-critical reader would consider the things that interest them into reading more.
As long as the questions are not logical issues. Like how can the alien be blue when he just got green paint dumped on his head?
I have noticed when a poster quickly revised their thirteen when it seemed the answers he was writing to answer made the intro an info dump and made it less interesting to me.
Be mindful of your goals and be confident in your intuition.
quote:This is one reason why people may resist "simple, open, courteous discussion" of such questions. They are aware that necessary rewrites may fail to happen because of them.
Maybe...but thats honestly very very hard for me to understand. My experience has always been discusion=greater understanding, improvement and various other desirable outcomes. Most feedback I get isnt very helpful to me in a vacuum...talking to the person results in far greater clarity. Of course thats also why I mostly look for complete reads.
quote:Be mindful of your goals and be confident in your intuition.
This is the thing. Critiquers don't know your goals as far as what a story is trying to do, be and accomplish....unless you talk to them about it. Then everybody is on the same page.
[This message has been edited by Merlion-Emrys (edited May 17, 2008).]
posted
When you discuss and explain what the reader missed (or more appropriately, what the writer failed to convey), you are contaminating your reader pool. By explaining outside the story, you have given them information that would not be available to them before they read, and their "now I understand" has nothing to do with your writing.
Better to post a revision and try to clear things up with your writing.
quote:When you discuss and explain what the reader missed (or more appropriately, what the writer failed to convey), you are contaminating your reader pool. By explaining outside the story, you have given them information that would not be available to them before they read, and their "now I understand" has nothing to do with your writing. Better to post a revision and try to clear things up with your writing.
Its hard to revise based on feedback you don't understand because its in a vacuum though. And especially within the realm of the first 13...there may be a very good reason crucial to the whole story (the part that really matters) for why a thing is a certain way...and so, one is unlikely to change it, unless given a very good reason based on informed opinion.
It depends on the feedback of course. A few people go in depth enough that you know right away where they are coming from, why they are saying what they say etc. But thats pretty rare...most comments arent extensive enough. So to know what they are getting at, and why, you ask.
The people giving feedback here arent your target readers. They are other authors from whom you are requestiing feedback on your writing. And the more both of you understand, the better they will be able to do that.
Of course, thats also why full-reads of a story are far more useful than comments on just the first 13..
posted
But like I said, I realize I'm in the minority. I just think theres room for more than one way of doing things, as long as courtesy is maintained.
Posts: 2626 | Registered: Apr 2008
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quote:The people giving feedback here arent your target readers.
Since pretty much (not all) everyone here is a scifi/fantasy fan, and pretty much everyone here that posts in F&F is writing in the scifi/fantasy genre, it's not accurate to say the people here aren't your target readers. If you're writing short stories for the scifi/fantasy magazines and contests, the people here are likely subscribers and readers of those magazines/contest anthologies at greater percentages than most places.
Because they are writers, too, their feedback *is* skewed a bit, but I find the feedback from Hatrack (and a few other online sites) to be of far greater value than from others I know (and request feedback from) who are scifi/fantasy fans but not writers.
If the first 13 style doesn't suit you, there are other closed sites (still in the speculative fiction genre) that permit full reads and critques because they are members-only sites. This means when you post full text of a story to one of these members-only sites you aren't using up publication rights to your stories.
I personally use a mix of sites, feedback from friends and family, and a local writer's group. I find I get different things from different places, and all the feedback helps me to develop better stories and hone the craft of writing. Hatrack serves as a major part of that mix for me. Hard to measure how valuable it's been, but it's been huge for me.
[This message has been edited by KayTi (edited May 18, 2008).]
quote:Since pretty much (not all) everyone here is a scifi/fantasy fan, and pretty much everyone here that posts in F&F is writing in the scifi/fantasy genre, it's not accurate to say the people here aren't your target readers. If you're writing short stories for the scifi/fantasy magazines and contests, the people here are likely subscribers and readers of those magazines/contest anthologies at greater percentages than most places.
Your missing my point. People always say discussion of feedback "taints the reader pool" or that line about "you wont be able to explain to your readers." But the people here, while they are the kind of people who'd read the stuff, arent the main bulk of people buying the magazines. They are other writers, and they are here, on this site, speciafically for the purpose of feedbacking and workshopping their and other writers works. So I CAN explain to them and it will usually lead to them being able to give more insightful and useful feedback, thereby improving the stories for the readers and editors that I can in fact not communicate with.
quote:If the first 13 style doesn't suit you, there are other closed sites (still in the speculative fiction genre) that permit full reads and critques because they are members-only sites. This means when you post full text of a story to one of these members-only sites you aren't using up publication rights to your stories.
I never said anything about that. I think people here are a little to fixated on the first 13 and on the idea of "hooks" but it doesnt mean its not useful. Mainly I disagree with the notion that talking to other writers and discussing your stuff with them as oposed to just posting 13 lines, people leaving comments, and your looking at them silently in a vacuum, is somehow a bad thing. Most of the best feedback I've gotten anywhere has been through back and forth dicussion, not just initial comments.
posted
Thanks for all the responses. I don't usually answer questions, but I didn't want to be rude. It's like people thanking you for a thank you - when do you stop without hurting feelings? I think I get the lay of the land now.
Posts: 72 | Registered: Apr 2008
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quote:First, if you edit your original 13 lines in the post you put them in first, people will not be able to see the "before" and "after" AND you run the risk of editing away some good stuff. So if you post an edited 13 lines, it might be better to put it in a new reply, and then go to the original post and edit it to say that you've got a new version of the 13 lines further down in the topic.
I prefer A method that keeps all revisions on the first post because I feel it is easier then having to scan through the entire thread for the next revision. It also keeps a record of previous first 13's for people to comment on.
[This message has been edited by halogen (edited May 18, 2008).]
posted
Good point, halogen. Thanks for the example of how to keep revisions in the first post.
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posted
I agree. I just spent a while critiquing a 13 line fragment only to find a later revision, which was significantly different, had been posted several posts later. I think it's a much better idea to have your newest version at the very top in the first post, and if you wish older versions below it in the same post.
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