posted
I've gotten six responses back from editors regarding what they consider "previously published".
Three consider previously published to mean ANY posting of the story online anywhere in a non-password protected forum. So if you post your story on say, Hatrack, or your blog, these three editors would say your story has been previously published.
The other three made the distinction that posting on a writer's forum, dedicated to learning the craft, does not mean the story has been previously published. Basically, they wouldn't have any issue with it.
So what to make of this? I still haven't heard from the others, but that split indicates that the short answer to a magazine's guidelines that say they don't accept previously published stories is...ask them.
In the meantime, as Merlion-Emrys pointed out, one can join a password-protected site to workshop one's story, or err on the side of caution and just don't post that story to any site.
posted
They could say, "I'd like to reprint this," and then make an offer...would that affect their opinions of what's previously published?
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posted
I don't think so. From the way these editors replied, it looks like that it really depends on where the story was published. Meaning, those that do take reprints probably won't look at it as being a reprint if it was from your blog, or a writer's forum. Basically, as one put it, "that doesn't count".
Those that don't take reprints, I think, are just covering their bases. They don't have to worry about if the writer actually does have the rights to publish if the story's never seen the light of day anywhere.
posted
I have no idea which editors said what, but in general, if a magazine wants to BUY a story, it will have a contract, and that contract will specify what rights the magazine is buying. If you can't sell them those rights, because (for example) the story has already been made available to the public, then you can't in good faith sign that contract. I had to discuss and change one contract with a publisher who bought a reprint story because the standard contract requested rights I was not in a position to grant.
If you don't want to sell your story, put it wherever you like. If you DO want to sell it, don't post it publicly - i.e. don't put it on any webpage that a search engine could get to and display to anyone who went looking.
I wouldn't touch a non-password-protected "writer's site" that expected stories to be posted on an open bulletin board. Any writer's site worth its salt should know better.
posted
Okay, I have a question that's along this same line of thought:
What if you put a short story up on a site that you have to be a member of that site to read the story? Would that be considered published or not since only a limited audience would be reading it?
The reason I ask this is because I was checking a site to check out that I hadn't heard of before. It's called "The Next Big Writer". Anybody ever hear of it or wish to voice an opinion about it? I lost interest when I found out you had to pay to participate. I'd rather get paid for my work than pay someone else to read it. JMO
quote:What if you put a short story up on a site that you have to be a member of that site to read the story? Would that be considered published or not since only a limited audience would be reading it?
As far as I know it wouldnt be if like tchern says it doesn't come up on search engines etc. Like Liberty Hall...you have to have a password to see the main critique and challenge forums so we're able to post entire stories there.
I'd say the editors that talked about writers sites not counting were probably refering to that sort of thing.
posted
They've said putting the story up will count as publishing, but that's not the same as putting up a paragraph-length fragment*. Do you know their opinion on that?
Personally I'm not concerned about posting fragments here as they're never the final version (which will evolve thanks to critical feedback), and full versions I'll only email privately.
I don't deny it's good advice, but I don't see it being a problem on this site.
posted
I don't think it's a problem, either. Again, the editors' definition of "previously published" depended on the editor. I think only two (out of nine, so far) explicitly said they consider a story posted online, whether public or private, as being previously published. The others had varying degrees of acceptance, basically saying they'd take a look at the story before deciding, and saying that "writer's forums" are generally the exception to their rule about previously published.
And upon rereading Robert's post above, I don't think I understood the question the first time. If they liked the story, then, yes, that would color their perception of previously published. It seems like it's a moving definition depending on how well they may like the story. (Sorry, Robert. I'm easily confused.)
posted
Unless you're posting the entire text of your completed, polished story here (which would be edited by SHMBO to trim down to the 13-line rule we stick with on Hatrack) or on your blog or somewhere else public (which, by the way, is not a good idea as it can negatively impact the marketability of the piece...) - I'm not sure it matters.
Editors/publishers want to buy rights to a story. In order to deliver the best product to their customers (the readers) they want the stories they buy to be of very high quality, interesting to their readership, and not something that can be found just anywhere. They want to deliver a special experience to their readers, hence publishers are most often interested in first printing rights (yes, yes, exceptions for reprints, anthologies, and a hundred other examples...but speaking in broad generalizations here...)
So - you know, er, don't post your stories to your blog or stick them on public forums.
Posting fragments, or workshopping your stories in private forums (password-protected) is not the same thing as posting your story in the public domain.
I'm not a lawyer, but I guess I'm just not seeing the issue here. You can't post your entire story here (not allowed/would be edited down/post removed/etc.) I think by now everyone knows not to post their original fiction in their blogs, at least not if they don't want to sell it (there are some fabulous exceptions to this rule, not the least of which is Agent to the Stars by John Scalzi, but those are the exceptions.)
Is this really about the hypothetical risk of posting fragments here? I guess if one is concerned about that, they shouldn't post fragments here. But I'm not concerned about that, and haven't encountered any editors who are.
posted
I think the issue was rich was at one point wondering whether the posting of only 13 lines here was due to some sort of legistical reason or only because of the idea of the value/special emphasis on "perfecting" those 13 lines, and he'd had some doubts about whether posting in a writing forum even without it being private was in fact "previous publication."
Of course the legistical reason is that posting a whole story in a public forum like this would, by most, be considered to expend First Electronic rights, since it is public and not password protected or anything. I always assumed that was the case due to whatever additional technical complications and/or costs might be involved in making it password protected...but I guess the site or this part of it was in fact formed with an intentional focus on people using it to perfect first 13s (though I think most still prefer to get some full-story reads if possible.)
posted
As I understand it, the first 13 rule on Hatrack is a compromise. A desire to allow for the free exchange between writers (no matter how good the site, password protected sites will always have a smaller audience/membership than open sites like this one, which it's important to note do require user name/password for posting, but do not require same for reading posts. There are probably 3:1 or maybe even 20:1 readers to posters, at least that is typical in most online venues like this.)
But the balance/flip side is to permit writers to retain their rights to their original work. OSC and this writer's board have no desire to be in the position of "using up" a writer's publishing rights. OSC has his magazine Intergalactic Medicine Show for those who want to try to publish their work professionally.
Of course someone (kdw?) can point us to the threads where these items are discussed in more detail, but the main point is that this site exists, and the 13 line rule in particular, as a compromise between artistic exchange and retaining artistic rights.
quote:I'm guessing publishers check/have passwords to various sites as well.
I don't think so. Most wouldn't even know it was previously published unless the writer said so. For the most part, writers tend to be fairly ethical, and publishers tend to be fairly busy. Obviously, if another reader alerted the publisher/magazine then that's a different ball of wax.
quote:Of course someone (kdw?) can point us to the threads where these items are discussed in more detail, but the main point is that this site exists, and the 13 line rule in particular, as a compromise between artistic exchange and retaining artistic rights.
How about this topic, for starters? And the other topics in the PLEASE READ HERE FIRST area for follow-up?
quote:Most wouldn't even know it was previously published unless the writer said so.
Very true.
But this is why there are contracts. When a market buys your work, you sign a contract, and that contract will usually be selling first rights of some kind (world, North American, English language, whatever). f you sign a contract staing you are selling something that you don't actually have - because you have published your short story on a blog or a non-password-protected critique site - then you can be sued.
Truth will out - especially in these days of the internet, when information is so readily accessible.
My advice is very simple; don't publish anything without a contract and a payment. YMMV.
I emailed Jake over at http://flashfictiononline.com/ when I found out that publishing there gives authors credit toward SFWA membership. I asked him if authors who published with There and Then Magazine could resubmit stories with him and try for that credit.
He kindly said that no, they don't accept reprints except in very special circumstances. However, he suggested submitting to audio markets like Drabblecast who won't be as concerned about printing rights as about audio rights.
posted
That's a good point, Doug. Most, if not all, of the audio sites that publish fiction seem to generally prefer previously published material. I've a feeling that they prefer this since it shows that the material has been vetted by a third party, and, maybe more importantly, there's already a readership, however small.
posted
Invoke me and I shall come. Well, sometimes. (Oliver House is a nom de fume.)
Please do follow KDW's advice and read the other threads on the topic. I don't think I've contributed to them before, so here's my two cents.
I did a lot of research into this when I started up Flash Fiction Online. "First Electronic Rights" appears to be an ill-defined area of the law, but I'd say it's reasonably well-agreed that self-publishing is still publishing. That means that putting something on your blog is still publishing. That means that you can't sell me your first electronic rights because you've already exercised them.
Password protection doesn't matter much, either. Some e-zines are password-protected, but they're still publications. If you publish in IGMS then your entire story is behind a security layer, but it has still been published, and your first electronic rights have been exercised.
The question of writers' sites is a bit murkier.
People seem to make exceptions if you publish to a site for the purpose of critiquing rather than for the purpose of gaining readership. Thus publication on Hatrack would get the exception from me, whereas publication on "writers' sites" where people ooh and aah -- where you're trying to gain notoriety rather than critiques -- wouldn't.
To me. Your mileage may vary.
That said, you still don't want the full story to be publicly available if you plan to sell it, and I don't want it to be fully available on Hatrack before I publish it on Flash Fiction Online.
"Fully available" is important. Just like in "fair use" copyright law, publishing bits of a work for commentary is different from publishing the whole thing for consumption. The first 13 rule is a pretty good implementation of a "fair use"-style non-publication mechanism.
With all of that in mind, here's the language from my contract:
quote:First electronic rights is defined here as the first publication of the Work on an electronic forum (Web site, news group, email newsletter, etc.) in any electronically distributed form (HTML, PDF, text, etc.) for distribution to end consumers (as opposed to distribution for critiquing and other ordinary parts of the development process).
Though I don't broadcast the idea, I deliberately excluded a password-protection clause in my contract. If I accept a story from someone I will request that she take it down from a non-password protected critique site until after I publish. I also strongly recommend that they don't use non-password-protected critique sites, because I'm more lenient that way than other people are: I would think that this would be even more important for e-zines that charge for content -- they wouldn't want that content to be available anywhere for free, for any reason.
To sum up:
Whole story published to blog: previously published.
Part of story published to blog: not previously published.
Whole story published to non-password-protected critique site: marginal case.
Whole story published to password-protected critique site: not previously published.
These are my ideas, not anyone else's, and as always you should consult a lawyer if this stuff is important to you. I'm quite conservative about my own stuff and won't publish it to my blog or an unprotected writers' site.
Hope this helps, Jake aka Oliver House
Edited to add:
1. If you publish behind a password to a very small audience, like your family, I'd probably be okay with that. We're talking about small audiences with a specific composition, though. Query before submitting (and I don't just mean me, I mean any editor).
2. I often Google statistically unusual phrases from stories, and you'd be surprised how often we get hits on them; authors submitted the work without saying that they're reprints, but they're available on their own blogs or even in other e-zines.
[This message has been edited by oliverhouse (edited July 03, 2009).]
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