Hatrack River Writers Workshop   
my profile login | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Hatrack River Writers Workshop » Forums » Open Discussions About Writing » question about heat as in infared goggles

   
Author Topic: question about heat as in infared goggles
arriki
Member
Member # 3079

 - posted      Profile for arriki   Email arriki         Edit/Delete Post 
In the arctic or antarctic where the temperature is soooo cold - do there infared goggles work? When the environment is all the same temperature?
Posts: 1580 | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
extrinsic
Member
Member # 8019

 - posted      Profile for extrinsic   Email extrinsic         Edit/Delete Post 
Infrared works even better in cold climates because the detectors in some advanced models depend on temperature control. Even the lower grade commercial models that don't rely on temperature controlled sensors do better in lower temperatures. Heat sources no matter how well insulated and isolated from extreme Arctic and Antartic temperatures leak heat. Heat sources are easier to pick up against extremely cold backgrounds.

Infrared astronomy depends on cryogenic cooling of temperature sensitive sensors.


Posts: 6037 | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
arriki
Member
Member # 3079

 - posted      Profile for arriki   Email arriki         Edit/Delete Post 
If you have natural infrared vision and you're in a very cold place with no heat sources and with other natural light - the sun - unavailable, could you see?
Posts: 1580 | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
extrinsic
Member
Member # 8019

 - posted      Profile for extrinsic   Email extrinsic         Edit/Delete Post 
Infrared light is heat expressed as light. How cold is cold? As far as the proposed imaginative premise is concerned, it's relative to what degree of difference and what directional thermal properties a system possesses. Cold absorbs heat from a surrounding warmer environment. Heat radiates into cold. If both subsystems are in thermal equilibrium, there's no exchange of heat, there's no discernible difference, and therefore no difference to distinguish contours, textures, particle sizes, etc. Everything is seen as a whiteout or a blackout, warmer and colder, respectively.

However, in a natural enviroment and most manmade ones, other factors like magnetic fields, convection and Coriolis forces, air mass movement over an open system, evaporative cooling, and the imperfectly attainable insulation and isolation of a system don't allow a perfect equlibrium state, even in a gas at the molecular level. In other words, there's a plausibly detectable difference in temperature between nearby objects, they're not likely to be exactly the same temperature. The Law of Diminishing Returns, however, prevents most efforts to measure such a slight difference at that miniscule threshold.

Though there's no visible light, invisible to a human eye ultraviolet and infrared light sources might still input heat. Natural background radioactive particles' radioactive decay also inputs heat, geothermal sources, friction from moving glaciers and other ice masses in motion, heat from gravitational forces, etc., input heat.

273 Kelvin, abolute zero, is where any possible heat radiation from a radiating body stops. But absolute zero is an unattainable state, it's an asymptote boundary like the speed of light. Something even slightly warmer next to an object near that temperature would radiate heat into it. But still the difference could plausibly result in seeing them in infrared vision as a darker object and a lighter one.

Natural infrared vision would seem to me to have fantastically evolved with superacute temperature gradient detection. Manmade infrared devices are relatively crude by comparison to that imaginative but plausible premise. So see? Yes, in very microminute gradients of temperature difference. Say on the order of several nano degrees Kelvin difference. Probable, not likely; impossible, no. Ideal, though, for a fantastical science fiction or fantasy premise.

The two complications I can imagine, one, that the heat of the viewer's optical organs might be brighter than its surroundings, therefore all it would see is its own eye heat. The eyes would have to be about the same temperature as the ambient background. Two, that chance encounters with high heat sources would blind it. Infrared light shading membranes or eyelids or irises that are highly responsive might address that.

[This message has been edited by extrinsic (edited October 09, 2009).]


Posts: 6037 | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Bent Tree
Member
Member # 7777

 - posted      Profile for Bent Tree   Email Bent Tree         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
If you have natural infrared vision and you're in a very cold place with no heat sources and with other natural light - the sun - unavailable, could you see?

Another aspect to consider is the evolutionary aspects of this being. For example if this creature evolved in a tropical environment then perhaps it would have trouble in a very cold world. if it were not its own.


Posts: 1888 | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
rstegman
Member
Member # 3233

 - posted      Profile for rstegman   Email rstegman         Edit/Delete Post 
If it is a creature hunting someone or something, It would likely have other senses. We can use hearing as a method to get around, if we are trained properly. I have heard where some masters in the art, can hear the locations of trees and bushes as they move through a forest.

Other senses might also be in use. Of course, in an arctic condition, they might not be effective, such as cold protection might muffle ears or sensing the air around it.

It might also hunt by smell or taste. Of course, in the arctic conditions, freezing of the smelling tissues could be a serious problem.



Posts: 1008 | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
arriki
Member
Member # 3079

 - posted      Profile for arriki   Email arriki         Edit/Delete Post 
Extrinsic -- The Law of Diminishing Returns, however, prevents most efforts to measure such a slight difference at that miniscule threshold

Yeah, that’s what I think. So they couldn’t use their sight without a flashlight just like us in this situation. Their vaunted “heatsight” would not be a significant factor.

Extrinsic -- The two complications I can imagine, one, that the heat of the viewer's optical organs might be brighter than its surroundings

Interesting. A complication I hadn’t considered. Neat idea.

Extrinsic -- chance encounters with high heat sources would blind it

I’ve already noted that in the story. And, think very humanoid but not at all human. They’ve got eyelids. They evolved into underground dwellers who go topside to hunt and farm. They’re way more comfortable in spaceships than we will be.

Bent Tree -- example if this creature evolved in a tropical environment then perhaps it would have trouble in a very cold world. if it were not its own.

A spacefaring race. The world this happens on is not where they came from nor is it Earth. The story plays out in the south polar regions. Really cold but endurable without spacesuits.

Rstegman -- Other senses might also be in use. Of course, in an arctic condition, they might not be effective, such as cold protection might muffle ears or sensing the air around it.

Interesting but not what I’m looking for right here. I’ll keep it in mind for other aliens. These aliens do have a sensitivity to magnetic (or maybe it’s moving magnetic) fields but that is toned down. They have almost lost it from living in high tech for so long.

Thanks guys.


By the way...clearing my throat...would one of you be willing to read the story? I've got another 2900 words to cut out (it's just under 20,000 words now) but I've already cut almost 10,000 words out. I need someone unfamiliar with the story to read what I have over and see if it still makes sense. You could read down to the first point where you really lost interest, even that would be a big help.

[This message has been edited by arriki (edited October 09, 2009).]


Posts: 1580 | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Bent Tree
Member
Member # 7777

 - posted      Profile for Bent Tree   Email Bent Tree         Edit/Delete Post 
Sure. I will give it a look. It is making me think of "Predator" and I am mildly lured already.
Posts: 1888 | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Bent Tree
Member
Member # 7777

 - posted      Profile for Bent Tree   Email Bent Tree         Edit/Delete Post 
I would also recomend picking up a phsycology book and reviewing "absolute thresholds of perception" it will get you in a good mentality in which to look at your issue.

For example; We never utilized the absolute threshold of our senses because we do not rely on them, well should I say that it is not worthe the energy expenditure required to stretch our perception, but if the need arises then we could advance further towards that absolute.

1)A eletric display which flashes a number on its screen is turned up to a point at which the human eye can no longer distinguish that it is a number on the screen( Lets say 35 pulses per second, which may or may not even be close to the actual number) So it is flashing at a rate in which it cannot be seen.

Now the person jumps from a plane, or bungee jumps or gets into a car accident. suddenly once the brain is triggered in this startled state, a person can read this number.

2) Blindness. It is pretty much common knowledge and there are countless experiments about the sensory perceptions of the blind. Other senses become more accut because they rely on them more.

So there are many ways to look at this and, in fact, it seems to me could be a very interesting aspect to the story itself is how this creature or beings perception is altered and how it copes biologically and psychologically to its environs.


Posts: 1888 | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
dee_boncci
Member
Member # 2733

 - posted      Profile for dee_boncci   Email dee_boncci         Edit/Delete Post 
If there are truly no inherent heat sources or external energy sources I would think in effect your creature would be blind. Vision in our range (in general) depends on external light sources reflecting off objects, and differing reflective properties allow the distinguishing of images. Imaging with IR depends on temperature differences. If there are no heat or energy sources your creature's world would have presumably reached thermal equillibrium at some point, so the creature might see the IR equivalent of a field of blue (to use a color analogy) or if it's cold enough, a field of black.

But if there were something like geothermal heat sources, and perhaps some climactic seasonal heat sources (e.g., warmer winds or rain instead of snow at certain times of the year) a creature could possibly detect terrain via IR "vision" since some thermal gradient would likely exist.

There could also be objects in the sky visible via IR (stars, etc.), although I don't know what good that does the creature.


Posts: 612 | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
MartinV
Member
Member # 5512

 - posted      Profile for MartinV   Email MartinV         Edit/Delete Post 
Um... I think that 273.15 K is the freezing point of water. Absolute zero is 0 K.
Posts: 1271 | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
extrinsic
Member
Member # 8019

 - posted      Profile for extrinsic   Email extrinsic         Edit/Delete Post 
Duh-huh, brain flatulence. I made the same mental slip repeatedly in studies and exercises on Boyle's Law, and when converting energy variables for Einstein's E=MC^2. Minus 273 degrees Celsius to convert for Absolute Zero, zero degrees Kelvin. Absentminded I am, too often.
Posts: 6037 | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

   Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Hatrack River Home Page

Copyright © 2008 Hatrack River Enterprises Inc. All rights reserved.
Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited.


Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2