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Author Topic: Germ of an Idea
andersonmcdonald
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Just something I've been kicking around for a while. Actually more like a day. I haven't thought it completely through. It probably wouldn't work. Maybe it shouldn't work. Here it is anyway...
What if, bear with me a minute, what if there was a way to self-publish and still have the traditional filtering process? What if there was a place where aspiring writers could submit their work, have fellow aspiring writers read it, vote on the best novel, and pass it on to professional writers willing to give it a look. If the professional writers like the book, they endorse it. The book is published under an imprint like "Discovery Series" or something like that. The Big Name author presents the book, gives it a blurb, and gets a cut of the sale. Newbie writer gets exposure by tapping into the Big Name author's audience. Traditonal publishing is passed over, yet the book hits the market without the self-publishing stigma. Everybody profits. This could be done by means of a website, kind of like Hatrack, but where aspiring writers pay monthly dues for the privelege of submitting. There's still a slush pile. Hundreds of novels would get trashed. The winner would get his name and book title posted online, letting prospective Big Name authors know it was available for review. They already do this anyway, but now they earn money for their trouble. Conflict of interest shouldn't be an issue. No Big Name author would endorse a book they feel is crap. Like I said, I'm not sure if this would work. Might cause problems between authors and their publishing houses. Any thoughts???

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BenM
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Let me play devil's advocate for a minute. I'll rearrange a couple of your points where my reactions were similar.

* there was a way to self-publish and still have the traditional filtering process? - To summarise, I think what you are constructing is essentially WotF for novels, which amounts to being, in many respects, at least as hard as traditional publishing anyway.

* There's still a slush pile. Hundreds of novels would get trashed. - If it took off, it would be more than hundreds. Which I think just makes this another form of traditional publishing.

* If the professional writers like the book, they endorse it - The only way I think they would do this is if it's published clearly as a "best of the amateurs" selection, so that Big Name Author doesn't have his reputation tarnished by saying that a possibly amateur book was "great".

* Everybody profits - Well, given the overheads of managing such a thing, AND promoting it, because after all, you want it to sell well, the people running the competition (aka the publisher) run up high costs. ie, it works out much the same as it does already.

* aspiring writers pay monthly dues for the privelege of submitting - Everyone would switch back to regular publishing, where querying is free.

I think the publishing industry looks like a big boogeyman to many aspiring authors and it need not. If an author can put out genuine quality, designed for a wide audience, and wants it marketed, the publishing industry is available to work with them. If they don't want one or more of those three things, then the existing self-publishing system is still workable.

And personally, the idea of a WotF for novelists makes my head hurt.


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jayazman
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Don't big time famous authors already do this? Isn't this essentially the same as letting someone unknown, or less known co-author a book with a well known author?
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skadder
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It's a bit like Authonomy, except there is gets picked up by a real publisher.

http://www.authonomy.com/

It's run by Harper Collins, and they occassionally select something from the slush and publish it.

[This message has been edited by skadder (edited March 19, 2010).]


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andersonmcdonald
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Ok. I did say it wasn't completely thought out. Never heard of Authonomy. This mainly stemmed from reading Michael A. Stackpole's website. He talks at length about the future of the publishing industry, his take on where it's heading (down), and the rise of digital and independent publishing. I was also thinking of comments about how self-publishing cannot overcome certain hurdles- namely, quality control and the inability to get noticed. It boils down to this: I browse author's webpages quite a bit. I read their book suggestions. I look for the suggested books, read a lot of them based on the author's recommendation. What if one day I visit, say, Orson Scott Card's page and see a new update: "I will be featuring new undiscovered talent from time to time. The featured writer this month is ......." Card gives a short review and provides a link
to the new author's website, where readers can download the e-book or order a physical copy. Card gets a cut (stated upfront) the new author gets a leg up.

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billawaboy
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I don't understand the book publishing business well, so this might be a wrong interpretation of selfpublishing:

I thought the whole idea of selfpublishing was specifically because no publisher would publish/market it or no Big Author would endorse it. By introducing a weeding out process it defeats the selfpublishing need. The weeding out process finds a novel worthy of being published and endorsed. Why selfpublish if it's already good enough to be endorsed? It just become a matter of finding the right publisher.

Also, In a sense, this new idea is simply creating a "publisher" that simply charges the author for weeding out (the monthly fee) and also for the publishing, in return it does not get any cut of the potential profits. i think many writer's may go bankrupt with high hopes for their novel - however good it is. Also, The one thing we forget is all the marketing we would have to do, like getting other endorsments, finding cover artists, putting in magazine ads etc.

However this might work if one can make it a popular brand of novel publishing (like WOTF)- then you might get away with e-book publishing and really get some profits. But how do you create a brand for novel publishing? Heck how do you create a popular publishing brand at all?


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andersonmcdonald
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I want to be clear. I really don't know what I'm talking about. This was just an idea. But here's some more thoughts.

Quote: I thought the whole idea of selfpublishing was specifically because no publisher would publish/market it or no Big Author would endorse it.

This is the stigma with self-publishing. It might be completely accurate. But there might also be exceptions. For example, what if the publisher drops you, even though you are a successful writer with legions of fans? This is what happened to Mike Stackpole. Bantam dumped him, leaving him to fend for himself. What did he do? Go read his articles for yourself, but you will see that he is now pushing e-books sold from his own site. Does he advocate that writers NOT use traditional publishing houses? No, but he does say that he sees the digital age completely transforming publishing in the near future. He claims that selling his own works as e-books nets him more profit than those sold traditionally. Producing e-books is a relatively cheap and easy way for writers to get their works out to the masses. Which brings up the other point. Getting noticed this way would be difficult unless there was something like the program I mentioned above. And it doesn't have to be just e-books (not very fond of them myself). POD publishing can produce books of good quality, and with the help of Photoshop a good cover wouldn't be too hard to come up with. Again, this is just me rambling. Just wondering...


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Kathleen Dalton Woodbury
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If word of mouth worked well enough, selling e-versions of work might be profitable (and save all the overhead involved with self-publishing hard copies).

Mike Stackpole already has a readership, so selling his stuff online works for him.

If I may recommend a book that might have some bearing on the question of selling online? Chris Anderson's THE LONG TAIL



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Teraen
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So it is kind of like a WOTF for novels, and a publishing house where a publisher ONLY prints new authors... rather than a publisher traditionally keeping an author for subsequent books or accepting previously published novelists...

I kind of like it. A "Breakout Books" imprint. It would gain an industry reputation for finding fresh new talent. Of course, they'd have to be pretty good at it to make money - its the established authors who are the bread and butter of most companies. It may be kind of hard printing from a slush pile and hoping you can survive on finding the next Harry Potter or Twilight.

It probably would have to be done as a WOTF, with an endowment and large fund to keep going. Maybe they could rely on author's generousity after making it big to remember the little 'ol group that helped them break in...


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johnbrown
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I really don't see much difference between the idea and traditional publishing. More problematic: I don't see any way in heck to get pro authors to read hundreds of manuscripts each year. They've got their own careers to build.

But even if some author "guild" did do this, then to have any value it would have to have large platform and would, it seems to me, demand a very large cut. Why wouldn't they? They have the key piece. Your mss is one of thousands. And that's if they even like it or see it because they'd be awash in slush. To cut down on paper waste and time, they'd ask for queries and first chapters. Etc., etc.

If you think it's more like a big Kirkus or Library Journal, well, go out to my site and see what places like that say about reviewing self-published. And if they were getting cuts, wouldn't that then sink the whole objective part of the review? And diminish their value in the eyes of their readers? But it would be the same thing, slush etc., even if it was just a review service.

I just don't see what value a setup like this could provide over the traditional model. But I do see a lot of negatives. Publishers do a lot more than filter.

[This message has been edited by johnbrown (edited March 20, 2010).]


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andersonmcdonald
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I hear you. This isn't something I'm advocating. It was just to open up a discussion with people, like you John, who know a heck of a lot more than I do about the subject. But I wasn't suggesting authors should read through the slushpiles. I didn't really mean an independent publishing house, either. I was theorizing about a network outside the traditional publishing model. As I stated, it probably wouldn't work, maybe shouldn't work. But I'm hearing some rumblings about change coming. It might be nothing more than malarkey, but it got me thinking anyway. The idea was for undiscovered writers, really good ones with good stories to tell, to get exposure without passing through the Manhattan gatekeepers. No disdain meant. Just wondered why it couldn't be possible to climb the ladder some other way, especially if traditional publishing hits the skids in this new digital age. As for the argument about authors getting a cut of the sales for books they recommend, TOR gets a cut for books they recommend, yet it doesn't seem to pose a problem. Orson Card gets a cut for audiobooks he recommends on Audible. As long as it's up front, who cares? Does it mean that the recommended book is crap? I have a lot of respect for Card. When he reviews a book, I pay attention. I find myself looking for said book. If he were to mention a book by an unknown author that he honestly liked, in all likelihood I'd hit the link, probably download or order it. Seems like it could work. Again I'm not snubbing traditional publishing. In fact, this seems a good way to break in.
Or maybe not...

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andersonmcdonald
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>crawls under table and sucks thumb.<
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Teraen
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Having given this idea another 5 minutes of critical thought, I've decided that when I become as famous as L Ron Hubbard (for the writing, not the scientology thing...) I'll generously donate a large fund a the WOTF - Novel Division type contest.

Now, all that remains is to become rich and famous...


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billawaboy
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andy, dude, we ain't blamin you man - in fact we were hoping there was a realistic way. We know you meant no direspect - and that you just threw your idea out there to see if someone more knowledgeable would take it and fly with it...instead we held it under water until the bubbles stopped. We took it out behind the barn with the hunting rifle and asked it to think of happy things. We took it for a long walk in the woods with a shotgun and talked to it about purdy bunnies and let it walk slightly ahead. Sorry. It was a nice idea but like john said it might start out one way and but end up in the old ways.

But - If you see it working despite the points others have brought up - man, prove us wrong. And tell me where to submit.


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andersonmcdonald
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Purdy bunnies? Man, that is so...profound. Thank you. Thank you so much. (sniff, sniff)
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johnbrown
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There's always going to be a gatekeeper of some sort. Always. Because middlemen and gatekeepers provide real value to consumers.

Think about Walmart, then think about the time and money you'd spend if you had to go to farmer Bob who sold eggs, then travel 10 miles to farmer Jane who sold peaches, then go to Brazil to farmer Pedro who sells oranges, then come back to manufacturer Steve who makes picture frames, etc.

Furthermore, consumers don't want unlimited choice. Study after study has shown this. Why does Consumer Reports thrive? Because it reduces the choice. We don't want to go and test every dumb dvd player out there.

There are a lot of different gatekeepers right now for various novel niches (Christian books are different from Horror which id different for Romances etc). It seems to me what writers need to do is ID the ones for their types of books, then write a great book. And then another. And then another. And get them in front of as many of the gate keepers as possible.

I don't have a lot of time. So I'd rather write a book at this stage of the game instead of trying to become a gatekeeper because I don't want to be a gatekeeper. I do want to be a novelist. I want to leverage the gatekeepers for what they do best. And the way to do that is write a book they can't put down.


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andersonmcdonald
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I agree with you. But here's a little more detail, then we can shoot the dog and be done with it. Writers are readers. That never changes. No author HAS to read anything. But for instance let us say that Hatrack has a novel contest. Judges are members of the forum. They treat the submissions as slush, reading only as much as interests them. There is a winner according to votes. The first three chapters are posted. Now let's say that John Brown is sitting at his desk one foggy Christmas Eve eating a twinkie. He's just stuffed the delectable golden spongecake in his mouth when he is struck with the urge to check out his fellow key-peckers at Hatrack. He MEANT to take down the hot-off-the-press fantasy novel he bought earlier in the week, but is stopped cold by a new posting by KDW. "A novel contest? Strike me pink, what's this?" he says. He decides to take a look, just for the heck of it. Hmm... not bad. He doesn't INTEND to read all three chapters. When he's finished, he sees this: Want to read more? If you're a professional writer and you like the story, would you consider endorsing it??
What? Endorsement? I don't have time to do endorsements! I'm a writer! John goes back to his LEGITIMATE novel, but his mind keeps going back to story on Hatrack. He flings aside the book and clicks the link to read the rest. When he crawls into bed the following afternoon, he's smitten. One week later, John's faithful readers find this on his website: Folks, if you want to read a good story, head on over to BLAH BLAH's website and download this. I've added a forward which will explain in detail my enthusiasm for this up and coming writer. If you'd like, browse through my selection while you're at it. TOR may have dropped me, but I think you'll see I'm still cranking out the good stuff!"

Now, I don't know if you even like twinkies, John. And it's true this little scenario has the ring of fantasy to it, especially the part where I said TOR dropped you (I sincerely hope that didn't cause any offense!). But in these uncertain economic times, who knows? Happened to Stackpole. This is where I wonder about the monopoly held by the Manhattan publishers. What does a writer do in case the large imprints downsize or restructure? Sell vacuum cleaners? Why not take advantage of an alternative market? I don't say this is imminent or even probable, but what if? I think this is worth a look - http://www.stormwolf.com/


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andersonmcdonald
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More specifically, this - http://www.michaelastackpole.com/?p=1062

And this - http://www.michaelastackpole.com/?p=1044

Don't know if this is right. Kind of interesting, though.


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johnbrown
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I could be out on my ear in a year. If Tor drops me, I'd write another book and try to sell it to another publisher. End of story. Many long-time published authors go through a career crash or two. They keep writing and submitting.

I don't have time to be a publisher and a writer. Seriously. My best bet is to write as many great stories as possible. Not try to start up a publishing company. And certainly not to read slush (ack!).

I've heard Mike talk about his ebook stuff. And while he has a lot of interesting ideas, I don't see him providing many numbers. From what I've heard (not verified), his direct-sale ebook numbers are not all that great. I wish him all the luck in the world. I think he's a great guy and knows more about this industry than I do.

But,

It all comes back to sales. I swear 99% of those who talk about self-publishing talk about formatting their books, coming up with their own covers, posting the books to the internet as if that's the magic bullet. But those things aren't what matters. It's sales. Until someone shows me proven methods to get sales opportunities equal to or greater than the traditional method that work with my time contraints, I have no interest. It's all talk

But that's not stopping anyone else. To those that think self-publishing is the new thing, I say, knock yourself out. I hope you sell a million.


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andersonmcdonald
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I noticed you didn't deny the twinkie reference... LOL. To tell you the honest truth, I much prefer the traditional way. I WANT to be published through TOR or DAW or Bantam. I really just wanted to lay some nagging questions I have to rest. I hate e-books. Give me a hefty hardback with glorious cover art any day. I respect you a lot, John. You do more than your share to help new writers already. Consider me persuaded.
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Teraen
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I'm starting to think that it really would be a WOTF at the novel level. But here's the rub:

It would require a really big prize money so as to entice as many entrants as possible. This would have to continue long enough that the contest could garner respect amid the industry. Then, it would either have to publish the winner and be able to sell enough due to name recognition, or work with major publishers to agree to publish the thing if it wins. (I'm guessing this would require the publishing house having some judges on the panel, but it isn't unprecedented. For instance: http://www.randomhouse.com/kids/writingcontests/ And in some years they didn't have a winner, so nothing published. It may be they didn't find any submissions they wanted to get past this alternate slush pile...)

Either way you look at it, it seems it would require a large cash investment to keep the thing running until it became self-sustaining. But there is no reason to think it isn't possible, in mine humble opinion...


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andersonmcdonald
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Oh, it's possible Teraen. But why the big cash prize to entice writers? Wouldn't the chance to get published be enough? But I really only meant for new writers to be given the chance, through AUTHENTIC endorsement, to tap into a professional writer's audience. That's what is already happening anyway. But it might be a little pompous to ask for such an arrangement. I just thought that if a newbie writer's work was really good, and a professional writer agreed to take a look at it at his own discretion -in other words, ONLY IF THEY REALLY LIKED IT- they could recommend it and put his or her name on it as a part of some "Discovery Series" or something. It could even be advantageous for the pro writer- outside of a cut of the profits for his/her involvement, I can't tell you how many times I've discovered established writers just by reading their blurbs for books I'm reading.
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Teraen
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"But why the big cash prize to entice writers?"

Its a catch 22: why would a publishing house agree to publish the winner unless they were mildly confident that the winner would be good? So, to attract good authors, you'd need a good prize, UNTIL the publishers agree to publish...

The flip side is if the contest publishes itself, you'd have a hard time getting good entries until you get the name recognition. So its another catch 22.

Hmm. Two catch 22's. Must be a catch 44...


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