posted
My main problem with writing is that I can never get the prose to flow the way I want it to. I find that my writing tends to be either heavy in dialogue or description, and I haven't yet found the way to mix the twain. Are there any tips/tricks to writing good prose (Other than "Practise!")
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posted
The first trick is to define what "good" prose is. Its basically just a matter of opinion.
I mostly use myself as a judge...whether or not I'm happy with what I've written.
What are you trying to accomplish, specifically?
It is true though that in the end practice is basically the only way (that and critting and being critted, which is just part of the practice essentially.)
posted
Well, I suppose my aim is to have my prose sound as good as the other stuff I write. I write poetry and debate articles and when I'm finished, I feel as though it was well done, but as soon as I try two put two sentences of a story together, its clunky and awkward. I guess I could say that I wish that I was as good at creative writing as I am at expressive writing.
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posted
Your still speaking in entirely subjective terms though. What is it you like about your other writing? And what is it you dislike about your prose?
Have you posted a 1st 13 yet? Maybe you should do that and mention in the post exactly what you don't like.
[This message has been edited by Merlion-Emrys (edited August 16, 2010).]
posted
Oh, I've posted a number of first 13's. My latest is up right now. I'm quite satisfied with it as a story beginning. But, eventually, the story must progress from the setting of the scene to the point where the characters start saying things and doing things. That's where it all hits the proverbial fan.
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posted
Would it help to read it out loud, or have someone else read it out loud to you?
Or could you tell the story into an audio recorder of some kind and then transcribe it? Hearing it first may help you to get it to sound better to you.
The smell of smoke and steel filled the air as Kode Nichols stepped out into the busy streets of Lumina. The forges where no doubt already stoked. Ready to heat the various metals and ores needed to produce the fine weapons and armour that Lumina was famous for. It was a long walk from Kode's home to the guild house.
Even though the streets where narrow and the buildings crammed together, the pockets of buildings where far apart. It took a considerable amount of time to get most anywhere, but that was a sacrifice one had to make to reap the benefits of living in the mountains. Level ground was rare and far between so it was used to its fullest potential. Buildings towered overhead and seemed to bulge up into the sky to accommodate the growth of the prosperous city.
I'm fairly satisfied with this piece of writing, it could probably use work, but at this point of the writing it does an adequate job of setting the scene.
Here is a section of dialogue...
"Buck up yer step Nelson! We've got to get this done, you know what the deadline is!" "Sod off Althus, we'll get the job done." snapped Nelson." And besides, what kind of hogwash is it that we have to be done before midnight anyway? I can understand that they want it done quickly, but to do a break-in so early in the night is just stupid. I mean, the guards haven't even had a chance to get drunk yet, and we're supposed to pull a heist? Its ludicrous!" "Hey, I've got no clue why they want it done at this hour either," growled Althus, "And I don't like it either. But if it isn't done on time, we don't get paid, and I'm not about to argue with a pouch of gold marks!" Nelson spit vehemently and kicked at the dirt, muttering curses that would make a rock flinch. "I still don't like it," Neslon said grumbling, as the trio slipped into a side alley. "And the worse part is, we got to take this stupid kid along, he's still wet behind the ears for crying out loud. Mark my words, he's gonna get us all killed."
I find it to be clumbsy and awkward.
[This message has been edited by KoDe Nichols (edited August 16, 2010).]
posted
Hmm. Other than maybe a little too much "snapped, growled, grumbled" etc and a couple missing commas, it seems fine to me. Nelson's bits about it being to early, etc, I really quite like.
Perhaps you just need a little more distance? Did you write it recently?
posted
IMO the dialog is a little "as you know, Bob." In other words, it feels like the only reason these guys are having this conversation is to convey information to the reader, and because of this, the dialog doesn't feel natural. It pulls me as a reader out of the story and makes me aware of the details the author wants me to know.
You need to slow down. Think about how these two guys would interact with each other, what they would say not what the reader needs to know. Don't worry about getting in all of the details about the heist, that will come in time.
posted
This is where getting critiques is really helpful. I say get you ideas down first, then clean it up, then get other people to look at it and help you out.
I think MAP's comment about slowing down is a good one. There is a lot of patience in writing. But yeah, your dialog needs more stuff around it; movement, gestures, expressions etc. Your prose is pretty good.
Aside from that, the dialog is awkward, as has already been pointed out, because the characters are telling each other things they already know. Real people don't do that when they're talking to each other, so the conversation isn't real.
posted
Hmm. Not to be contrary but...I tell people stuff they already know, and get told stuff I already know by people quite often in various situations. The passage actually reminds me a good deal of me and my co workers talking.
So I think there is a bit of an line between dialogue info dump (which is I think the real issue behind "as you know, Bob") and realistic redundancy.
[This message has been edited by Merlion-Emrys (edited August 16, 2010).]
posted
Yes, now that you mention it, I see that. The dialogue is too much of an information dump. The amount of information in that dialogue should be dispersed into the story in bits and pieces. I need to write about things happening, the things that are happening to them as they progress. I'll get something written down and offer to email out a more complete portion once I have something more substantial written out.
posted
I agree with MAP. Two points kill this, firstly you raised expectations of the character Nelson's knowledge by stating that he knew the deadline. Implied with that is that he had been settled about the peripheral issues, so bringing them up now as if they were the first time doesn't seem right.
Secondly, some of the information is essentially about plot rather than the character's worries. Ask yourself what really motivates the speaker to talk. If it is more than one thing, what is the relationship between the data and what is the order of importance? The most important should come first or last for greatest impact into the memory of the reader. In this case, Nelson has three issues that he is worried about, midnight is an unrealistic timeline, the potential of facing non-drunk guards and the fact that a newbie is coming with them. These are presented as equal but unrelated points in the dialog (although the second may be less important than the other two, given the ordering). These are related, each is a risk to the job and to their lives. So you could bring them up as part of that particular motivation to speak, but to do so, make this motive clearer at the start of the dialog.
Further, don't resolve the risk-reward statements until after the last risk has been aired. Currently, Althus resolves it (by reminding Nelson about the conditions on the reward) and then Nelson (Neslon?) brings up another risk that is left hanging. This may say something about Nelson's character (i.e. that he is a complainer), but it also makes the character seem unresolved about moving ahead and so, if he does, he has become a bit more unknown, rather than better known, to the reader.
posted
Well, Nelson IS supposed to be a complainer, a snivelling conniving character that the reader is supposed to find irritating and reprehensible. The story goes on to answer some more questions, but I'm going to be reworking the entire formulae of what I have written so that its not as much of an information dump
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posted
Oh, the complainer part comes through no worries. It is just that, if the dialog stopped there as it seemed to, the complainer element came at the expense of understanding why he did continue in spite of his objections. Withheld information about motives can lead to reader resentment via a feeling of inconsistent or unknown characterisation. It is a risk you take. It may be one that you may well think is worth the reward, but you should be aware of the risk anyway.
Edited to add - any "don't" or rule that I or anyone else says should be taken is part of the writers risk awareness, rather than a law the must be followed. So if I came across as a bit rigorous above, my apologies.
[This message has been edited by Brendan (edited August 16, 2010).]
posted
Don't despair. "Flow" is the art in the art of writing. You can get most of the other stuff with sound technical skills, but flow takes something more. It's one of the big differences between being a draftsman and being an artist.
I know you said you didn't want to hear it, but the answer is . . . . practice. This I've learned from experience. Some people might be born with the storytelling "flow" gene. The rest of us have to pick it up by lots and lots of trial and error. Good luck and keep plugging.
posted
No, it was very helpful. I'm working through it now, cutting the dialogue with a bit of description and backstory. Hopefully I'll have something ready to share soon.
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posted
Hmm, I would argue that the flow is the skill of the draftsman, the story the skill of the artist. heheh.
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posted
Heheh, I guess its like genius. 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration. But I still think that without the inspiration its all just body odour. Posts: 60 | Registered: Mar 2008
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posted
"Perhaps he could use some deoderant," Abel laughed. "Then he would simply smell of moderate intelligence."
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For example, "Sod off Althus, we'll get the job done." snapped Nelson." And besides, what kind..." could become...
"Sod off Althus, we'll get the job done." Nelson rolled his eyes." And besides, what kind...
That means using description of a character to prove who said what, instead of snapped Nelson, or Nelson said, or Nelson grumbled. I think that might help add the description in the middle of the dialog so it doesn't feel like the dialog is just floating out there. And it could be anything, you could name an action, like "Sod off Althus, we'll get the job done." Nelson picked his nose. (or ran his thumb over the blade of his knife, or eyes a good looking housewife, or gazed at the towering buildings, or searched though the crowds of brightly dressed marks for someone, or whatever you want)" And besides, what kind...
But good luck with it. And I think the answer always is just practice. You'll figure it out. ~Sheena
posted
Interesting points Sheena. But there is this problem.
"Ew. Disgusting." Nelson looked at Sheena and continued picking his nose. "Next you'll probably wipe it on your shirt. Or worse, eat it."
--------------------------
"I've got to get it." Nelson looked at Sheena and continued picking his nose. "It's been annoying me for ages."
Same action, but context makes it very different as to who is speaking. So be very careful about context, so that it is clear. Said at least makes it clear who is talking.
I have had some critiquers that find non-talk actions in the middle of conversation to be quite off-putting. I saw what they mean, it can jump people out of reading and lead to confusion. But I have seen the approach that Sheena has suggested work quite well at times.
posted
Hmm. Brendan, I think I'd be inclined to call your first example a "dangling" action tag (in reference to "dangling participles"--see examples below) because the implied attribution is confusing.
Examples of "dangling particple":
"Being so awkward in sentences, I never use dangling participles."
"Running through the forest as fast as he could go, the roots of the trees kept tripping him."
posted
I find I have the same problem, on review of the first draft of my own novel. My hope is that this is merely inexperience and being out of practice (except for medical papers and reports, I haven't written much of anything in 30 years). This is why I am finding this forum very beneficial.
Again I agree with Katherine. Reading the story aloud, listening to the rhythm and flow of the sentences and the word choices I am finding very helpful, and I recommend this to you,
quote:The smell of smoke and steel filled the air as Kode Nichols stepped out into the busy streets of Lumina. The forges where no doubt already stoked. Ready to heat the various metals and ores needed to produce the fine weapons and armour that Lumina was famous for. It was a long walk from Kode's home to the guild house.
What does steel smell like? Either an olfactory descriptive or its sensorial effect (upon his eyes or the sensitive tissues inside his nose)would better realize being among the forges.
quote:Even though the streets where narrow and the buildings crammed together, the pockets of buildings where far apart. It took a considerable amount of time to get most anywhere, but that was a sacrifice one had to make to reap the benefits of living in the mountains. Level ground was rare and far between so it was used to its fullest potential. Buildings towered overhead and seemed to bulge up into the sky to accommodate the growth of the prosperous city.
Similarly, I want you to engage my senses here as well.
The streets were narrow, crammed between the towers of the city. The city clung to the mountainside, its buildings clustered where level ledges permitted, their spires lancing the sky. Where they could not build outward, they built upward. Oh. Got carried away there (sorry). Too poetical, ... but I wished to see and experience your city.
Regarding the dialogue, I concur I find (for me) it is better to use "said" mostly and, often in quick back-and-forth conversation, nothing at all. You seem to be able to convey the characters' tones by the choice and pace of the spoken words, thus adding "snapped" or "grumbling" seems redundent. Well done.
Respectfully, History
[This message has been edited by History (edited August 19, 2010).]
posted
Hmm, I hadn't considered that some may not know what steel smells like, I may have to add soem adjectives. Also, I find that I tend to use many more "feel" words instead of sense words. I usually try to describe the ambience rather than the specifics, and let the reader imagine their own scene.
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posted
I suspect that for most people, steel doesn't really have a smell. Molten steel, on the other hand, may.
Your character may be sensitive enough to smell steel, and it may not have any particular descriptive--it may just smell like steel. You decide whether it's important enough to go into more detail.
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