posted
A couple of questions about proper grammar with quotes.
I'm using an example from fostes first thirteen in the short story section that philocinemas has corrected to ask my question about.
quote:“Now, now...(use a comma instead - it's a better pause due to grammar rules)” her father dabbed his mouth with the tablecloth (great), “A (a) proper young lady does not fuss about dinner.”
When starting the second sentence in a quote you don't capitalize the first letter? Is this because the sentence is a continuation from the first sentence in this case?
And what is the rule for ending the first sentence with a period and not a comma?
posted
You omit any trace of "said." If it'd been "her father said as he dabbed his mouth with the tablecloth," you could'a used commas. As is, "Her" should be capitalized, "Now, now," and "A proper young lady does not fuss about dinner," would have to be considered complete sentences if something was inserted between them, with punctuation and capitalization where appropriate.
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posted
I don't necessarily agree with you Robert. The problem lies in the type of sentence this is and how it is formatted.
"Now, now," is an interjection. This should be followed by either a comma or an exclamation point, depending on the strength of the interjection. Therefore you should first treat the entire sentence according to how it is structured.
Example 1: "Now, now," her father said as he dabbed his mouth with the tablecloth, "a proper young lady does not fuss about dinner."
This would probably be the best way to write this sentence. However, if the author did not want to use 'said', then there would be two other choices:
Example 2: "Now, now..." Her father dabbed his mouth with the tablecloth. "A proper young lady does not fuss about dinner."
- The problem here is that the second part of the sentence is a continuation of the first. They do not typically stand alone.
Example 3: "Now, now," her father dabbed his mouth with the tablecloth, "a proper young lady does not fuss about dinner."
- I suggested the above option - 'her father dabbed his mouth with the tablecloth,' becomes an interruption within the actual sentence. It would be similar to any other phrase that does not have a attribution, such as 'he gasped for breath' or 'he blinked', that could occur in the midst of a sentence.
Unfortunately, I do not have access to any source or rule that backs up how I have suggested punctuating this. If anyone has access to The Chicago Manual of Style, I would appreciate either an affirmation or correction of this format (according to a previous thread, it is not allowed to quote from that manual).
posted
The original example was “Now, now...” her father dabbed his mouth with the tablecloth, “A proper young lady does not fuss about dinner.”
Since there is no period after tablecloth, the critiquer assumed that the A is capitalised incorrectly. It could just as easily be done the other way around, as in [tablecloth. "A proper], if the author feels that the speaker attribution is not needed and a definitive pause required in the action beat.
For this reason I'd generally recommend - and not to downplay the value of anyone's critique - looking at any particular suggestion as an indication that the original text didn't work for the reader, rather than being tempted to automatically accept any recommended change.
posted
The main problem with the original sentence was that the author used an ellipses (...) preceding a quotation mark and followed by a lower case (h)e. The ellipses would require a capital (H)e. However, the ellipses would not typically be used with an interjection. That is why I suggested the change.
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quote:When starting the second sentence in a quote you don't capitalize the first letter? Is this because the sentence is a continuation from the first sentence in this case?
And what is the rule for ending the first sentence with a period and not a comma?
There are specific ways to punctuate sentences and paragraphs containing both dialogue and narration. This is determined mostly by the dialogue.
Single sentences with attribution: (STATEMENT) "The dog was friendly," he said. (OR) He said, "The dog was friendly." (EXCLAMATION) "The dog bit me!" he said. (OR) He said, "The dog bit me!" (QUESTION) "Is that your dog?" he said/asked. (OR) He said/asked, "Is that your dog?"
- If the next sentence in the above examples were dialogue, then the first word of that dialogue would be capitalized just like when starting any new sentence.
Single sentences without attribution: "I'm bleeding!" He ran to the sink to clean the wound.
- It does not matter, whether it is a statement, question, or exclamation, MOST narration following dialogue WITHOUT ATTRIBUTION (said, asked, etc.) will begin with a capital letter.
Divided sentences: 1-(2ND HALF NOT CAPITALIZED) "I think I," he watched as the water washed away the excess blood, "can see the bone." 2-(2ND HALF NOT CAPITALIZED) "I hope," he said, "your dog has had its shots." 3-(2ND HALF NOT CAPITALIZED) "Well," he began counting on his fingers, "its shots might have expired." 4-(2ND HALF CAPITALIZED) "Can you check?" he asked, "And can you get me a bandage?" 5-(2ND HALF CAPITALIZED) "Oh, God!" he leaned against the counter, "Call 911."
Let me try to explain the above punctuation - 1- This uses a continuation of thought/speech, therefore you do not need to capitalize the second part of the narration, even without attribution. 2- This is the same as (1), but with attribution. 3- This is similar to the example cited in the original post. 4- These are two separate sentences linked by an attribution. 5- This is an interjection that is so closely linked to the second part of the sentence, so that it does not require you to capitalize the (he), even without attribution. However, due to the exclamation mark, you still need to capitalize "Call".
I hope this answers your question walexander.
[This message has been edited by philocinemas (edited October 25, 2010).]
posted
ok, this was very helpful, because I was getting some of these rules wrong. When I saw it in Phil's correction I thought I'd better ask. I now see more clearly how the rules work.
Since we're on quotes I have a another question. In K.D. Wentworth's notes on dark warriors KDW post page for wotf. She says she hates action verbs-
quote:... I hate all action verbs used in place of "said."
"Stop that," Bob growled.
"Stop that," Bob squealed.
"Stop that," Bob snorted.
I could go on--and on and on and on!
Can someone explain better the point she is trying to make here? It confuses me, because said in place of everything would seem repetitive. I'm sure she is trying to convey something important, but I'm not sure how this works into proper grammar?
Can someone explain?
W.
- Thanks phil. - the list of rules really helps, thank you. W.
[This message has been edited by walexander (edited October 25, 2010).]
posted
The word "said" is said to be invisible when reading dialogue. The other words are called "said-bookisms" - words used instead of said to create variety. However, these words are often distracting from the flow of the story and they rarely add anything that couldn't have been (or maybe should have been) conveyed in the dialogue.
I take exception with the word "asked" - it bothers me when I see "said" before or after a question, unless it is rhetorical.
I have also seen said overdone. I read a Hemingway piece (and far be it for me to criticize Hemingway), but he used said in almost every sentence (and it became very VISIBLE to me). I would rather see "said" only used when attribution is unclear or occasionally withing long periods of dialogue (but that is just my personal preference).
posted
I'm not a big fan of the "omit 'said'" school of writing...one shouldn't over-use it, but it's a good, solid word and its use is acceptable. (I don't care for the excessive use of substitutes or modifiers, though.)
Little of which has anything to do with capitalization, and how it works, which was the question before the board...
(By the way, how are you guys doing boldface? I thought it couldn't be done here.)
posted
A certain kind of custom in abbreviations---if each letter is pronounced, each letter gets a period (F. B. I., A. A. R. P, and so on)...but if it's said as one word, no periods (NASA, UNESCO, NASCAR, and so on.)
I picked this up from a book about NASA...but, I gather, they didn't always adhere to the rule.
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