posted
I have a computer-related writing problem, and am having a hard time finding useful and concrete advice online. I don't know if this is the appropriate place to post this, so let me know.
Sometimes submission procedures requre your files to be RTFs. Instructions make it sound simple to convert your files to RTFs. Well, it's simple to go in and "save as..." as an RTF, but more often than not, the resulting formatting is wonky.
Perhaps my problem is that I use various word processors: Mostly Word and Open Office, but some of my files have been touched by various versions of these two programs, and also Microsoft Works on occasion. I don't know if that's the problem, but once I convert to RTF I have to go back and reformat everything, and then it doesn't always stick. So next time I open it, I have to reformat again. Does anybody have ANY concrete advice?
One thing I'm not clear on: is autoformatting good for converstion or bad? For example, is setting the automatic first line of a paragraph tab better than manually hitting tab? It seems that in many converted files, half the paragraphs will be indented and the other half won't. When I go back and try to determine whether the ones that held the correct formatting were manually tabbed or autotabbed originally, it seems like I get a different result each time. Anybody know which is better to do in your original file?
Is there anything else I should do to completely new files to prevent these problems in the future?
posted
Personally I use Wordpad or Word and always save as RTF, never as DOC. Can't say I've ever had formatting problems.
I also switch off anything in Word that has 'auto' in the name. If it asks me if I want it to do something the answer is always no. In fact switch off everything, and ignore the grammar checker as it's plain wrong half the time.
All I really use Word for is the spell check, word count and thesaurus.
Edited to add:
Ah yes, I have Word 2002 and did have some problems initially with RTFs. It was down to having Asian language support installed by default. You might want to check that and get rid of it.
[This message has been edited by pdblake (edited January 13, 2011).]
posted
Try copy/paste your text from all the documents into a new file and then make a fresh save. Clipboard doesn't save all the fancy settings (I think) so copy/pasting might transfer just the text. Other than that I can't think of anything.
Edit: Instead of rtf, try making a document in pdf. pdf is not changed as easily as doc or rtf. And pdf is a pretty general format, accepted by most operating systems.
[This message has been edited by MartinV (edited January 13, 2011).]
posted
Although I used Open Office extensively at work for years (lots of tech writing), I don't use it for fiction. For some reason, they've had a bug for years spanning many releases related to the RTF format. If the ms is double-spaced, the spacing is mangled if you save the file in .rtf format; roughly half the lines end up single-spaced. This isn't obvious until you reopen the file. I looked for a .doc to .rtf conversion tool, but decided against it. MS Word is what I use for fiction, on a MAC or Windows machine. Using OO for this just isn't worth the headaches.
posted
The trouble is that RTF doesn't necessarily follow sane or consistent attribute nesting, and the next program to touch the file may decide the nesting is different or doesn't display it the same -- so you get bold that extends past a chapter title, or italics that go on for paragraphs on end. This is especially a problem with conversions to other file formats.
To be handled consistently, attribute nesting cannot overlap. That is, you can't have (Bold, Italics)
B I words /B /I
rather it needs to be
B I words /I /B
so an attribute [on /off] tag is never split by another attribute pair (same as in HTML). But RTF editors don't seem to be very good at this. And with RTF you have no control over how it nests attributes.
Also, different programs have different notions of what RTF should be structured like and what it should include.
Sometimes, as noted, doing a copy-and-paste will fix the problem. Other times, you're condemned to fixing it by hand. But it's a good reason to always doublecheck RTFs before sending 'em -- just in case.
WordPerfect uses a completely different (and less corruptable) attribute scheme from all other programs, and usually saving in WP5.1 format, then resaving as RTF, will clean up bad nesting -- but not always, if it extends across paragraph breaks. A lot of word processors can export in WP5.1 format, so it's worth a try.
Another trick is to view your "good" file in something that is NOT an editor, like QuickView Plus, then copy and paste from that into your RTF editor.
Side note: NEVER EVER NOT EVER save directly from MS Word to a floppy disk. Word (and Excel) has a longstanding bug (going back to the DOS4 era!) where it fails to properly close files under certain circumstances, and saving directly to a floppy is a great way to corrupt your original document.
posted
I must admit that I have never had any problem using RTF but then I eep formatting to an absolute minimum and don't let Word try and do clever things for me. The only things I'll format in a document are the font and font size (which will be the same throughout), the spacing (normally double apart from the personal info at the top of the MS), and the paragraph indent (first line). If you are using all manner of different formats for different bits of the document, then possibly Word/OO are getting confused, but there is really no need todo that, and your formatting shoudl NOT change (or fail to stick) when you work on documents.
Ref. MartinV above - I would not advise using PDF documents under any circumstances. Most people can read them, but amending them is a whole different ball game, and remember that documents you are submitting to a market are likely to be edited, annotated, etc. PDF just is not a helpful format for that. It is also a tremendous pain gong between different paper sizes as it formats at the page level (I work with US and European documentation and this is a bane of my existence).
posted
Something that hasn't been mentioned but sounds necessary in the case you describe is not just copy/paste, but paste-special, UNFORMATTED TEXT.
From time to time MS Word adds artifacts to files that can cause issues. I have to assume similar things can happen with Open Office, though I don't personally use it for anything (have it installed on one computer that the kids use but I don't use it other than over their shoulder.)
So open your file in MS Word, copy your entire manuscript, then close the file (so you don't forget which is which.) Then create a new document, choose "Paste special" from the edit menu (or you can find this on the right click, in most cases.) Paste Special gives you a list of options, you want "unformatted text." This will take out ALL formatting, which is fine at the moment. It sounds like the file(s) you're dealing with have so many formatting artifacts that you are going to be best served by starting fresh. In epublishing/formatting for Smashwords.com, this is called "the nuclear option."
Now that you've got your unformatted text pasted in, save this document with a new filename. Then go back and add in your formatting. You should only need to do this once. Save the formatted document (I recommend another filename because then you can go back and forth if you do find issues.)
Then one more time, choose save-as, rich text format.
If your document still has issues, I'd be surprised.
I know you're not formatting for epublishing right now, but the smashwords free ebook on formatting for their site actually includes quite a lot of useful tips for how to get paragraphs indented properly, in a way that doesn't introduce more of these formatting artifacts to your files, and other things. It's available on their site for free.
Good luck, the whole document formatting business is a real pain sometimes. I use Scrivener for most of my writing now because I just love the way it gives me control over things. Still plenty of features I haven't explored yet.
posted
Thanks everybody. My experience with copying and pasting is so hit and miss--for reasons I don't always understand--that it's added to my frustration, but I'll try the steps offered above.
I think I'm going to have to break down and buy the new Word, even though it's a lot of money to spend on something I hate. Don't get me wrong. LOVED Word 97. Tolerated 2003 or whatever is was. Hate the newest version because I believe that if something isn't broken, you shouldn't fix it, and if you do end up fixing it, you shouldn't simply move things around so that no one can find anything, then cleverly hide the help function and proceed to call it "better." But enough ranting. I'll buy it, install it on both computers I use, and then try saving everything as RTFs in the first place.
Again, Thanks so much for your advice.
Oh, about auto formatting, I actively hate it, but find that whenever I turn it off, it seems to turn itself back on, somehow getting the idea I WANT auto indents. And we won't even talk about bullets and numbering. But I will perservere, and one way or another, I will crush out autoformatting's will to survive. Mwah hah hah!
quote: So open your file in MS Word, copy your entire manuscript, then close the file (so you don't forget which is which.) Then create a new document, choose "Paste special" from the edit menu (or you can find this on the right click, in most cases.) Paste Special gives you a list of options, you want "unformatted text." This will take out ALL formatting, which is fine at the moment. It sounds like the file(s) you're dealing with have so many formatting artifacts that you are going to be best served by starting fresh.
A much easier way to accomplish the same nuclear option - paste it into Notepad. Notepad doesn't believe in formatting. It only reads .txt.
I always save in RTF rather than Word or other formats because 1) I don't like Word - it doesn't play well with chapters, and I use Jer's Novel Writer. 2) Most source control systems don't work well with .doc, .docx, or other binary files. The issue is that subversion, mercurial, etc are built to handle human-readable text documents -- code. Word docs are binary formats, so a small logical change, like adding a single new line at the end of the paper, changes all of the bits. RTFs are actually readable if you open them in Notepad (or SciTe, Notepad++, or - god help you - vim). Each changed line is actually a single line (or two), so you can use version control.
Using Jer's Novel Writer, I export as RTF (and you could easily save as RTF from Word or OpenOffice), overwrite the existing file, then do:
hg commit -m "Did some work on chapter 7, trying out a new tack with character X"
From those two little lines, I have a complete reconstruction of my work and the ability to undo (and examine) any individual change, as well as a backup existing in the cloud. It's a little tech-y, but... that's kind of what I do for a living.
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