posted
I was wondering how you hatrackers feel about stories with a very cynical and morbid feel to it. When i was in my pre-teen years and especially in my early teens I read alot of Robert Cormier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Cormier - just read the first paragraph and you'll understand the bulk of what I'm saying, it's only a few lines) and all of his works were ripe with a cynicism of humanity that left me feeling hollow for days after finishing the story. It was the kind of fiction that made you reflect on how not every protagonist in a story is nature's intended protagonist, if you catch my drift. He'd write about a person with alcoholic parents, an insane best friend, a crippling disability, and in the end the protagonists never win. These kinds of stories would always touch me in a way that the rest of my class couldn't comprehend. We read one of his books ('I am the cheese') for an English class when i was about ten years years old. All I heard was how much everyone hated the novel, and thought it was stupid. I thought it was a very interesting take, a unique perspective and an entirely different tone than most of the crap that was coming out in all forms of entertainment media. Finally, we get to my question. Is there a market these days for stories with a cynical rythm to them that are more a 'slice of life' story than anything the reader will ever experience? I grew up on cult-classic books and movies, and that's deeply ingrained into my writing style, just the tone of the entire genre. I was hoping for your input as to whether you believe that casual readers, or even yourselves, for i know you must all be avid reader, have any patience for downbeat literature that has not happy ending, but is therefore a pretty accurate representation of life, at least in certain circumstances.
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posted
In fantasy they only thing I can think of are Donaldson's Thomas Covenant novels. I bought the first three from a market stall years ago. I got half way through the first one, shouted 'FFS, quit whining', and threw it at the wall. All three ended up in the charity shop, unread.
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posted
I guess that answers that question then . Though i think I understand what you're getting at. I think there's a fine line between an author just bitching about their upbringing, and an author who has just seen past the curtain and seen what goes on backstage. Maybe it's just a matter of some people being able to disguise their whining better.
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posted
I find the works of Harlan Ellison deeply depressing...mostly it's the bleak view of life and the scuzzy characters...I mean, brilliantly-written and laid out, but depressing nonetheless. Of late I've taken to avoiding his work.
Not that that's uncommon...a lot of Silverberg's work comes across the same way, but, somehow, redeems itself engages my attention.
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If it's your thing, I say go ahead and write it. There's obviously a market for it.
Personally, I get enough depression and take on everyday life in my own life. When I pick up a book to read, I want to be wisked away to faraway lands and grand adventures. Or at least something with wit and humor. Probably the reason I'm so attracted to fantasy and science fiction with a dash of action and adventure on the side .
posted
Today's DSF story by email was depressing as all heck. But it was well written and had a strong message. I think that is what really matters. However, had the story been much longer I doubt I would have continued. I don't want to be submersed in depression for that long.
But I have read some books that are really depressing, but more so they are just rambling complainers. I have got rid of many a book like that.
One thing to have a depressed or complaining character, but I always hope the story comes out with the character triumphing over the depression.
posted
Crystal pretty much beat me to what I wanted to say.
They are not my type of stories even though if there really is a message I can handle it, and have even enjoyed a couple but as she said there is a market for that type of story. So if that is what you like, or just want to do one now and then go ahead. There seems to be enough people here who read them to allow you to find critiquers, if that as a worry.
I may even do a couple, just to be different and to stretch myself. But there seems to be different types, some with messages and some not, so I may end up writing lesser depressing stories... if you get what I mean.
A while back I critiqued a story on critters that didn't have any message I could tell, but the MC ended up being killed in the end. She went from one abusive situation, to a worse situation... thinking she was doing better and ended up dead while helping an evil come back into the world. For my tastes just plain depressing and morbid but there are people who like those types of stories and many editors would not care as long as it was well written. In fact I would think some would go for a story that haunts the reader because of how well done it was.
posted
Hell yes, there's a market for such books. In fact, most of the book market in my country is based on them.
When I was in elementary and high school, you wouldn't believe the books we were forced to read and analyze. I'll give you a single example so as not so overload you.
It was a novella about a farmer (or a peasant would be better, I think) with ten children, living on a farm with very poor soil. The peasant is too poor to move or to buy furtilizers for the soil so all he can do is work as hard as he can to produce the meager crops to feed his family. I don't remember what went on in between (managed to delete it from my mind) but in the end the peasant gets buried in an mud avalanche. His children manage to pull him out and he's alive but he got a hernia in the process (still don't know how). So instead of dying fast beneath all that mud he takes days to die from the hernie (no doctors or no money for them). All the while his guts are sticking out of his stomach, causing the whole house to stink with rot. When he finally dies, the neighbours come (not right away, it takes weeks for them to realize they haven't seen the peasant for some time) and see his rotten corpse, while the children are still living in that house. So what do the good neighbours do? They send the children to orphanage (not even the same one, I think) and claim the land for their own.
Now tell me what can you learn from such a story because I'm dying to know.
posted
Well, there are a lot of depressing stories out there. Writers write what they know. Since a lot of us got our starts in high school, we turned out depressing stories...and "depressed high school student" is redundant.
Speaking of depressing things read in school, for school...I had to read "The Catcher in the Rye," as, I'm sure, a lot of you had to as well. I remember little detail, but I was struck by what a jerk the lead character was. Maybe this was one that would be better appreciated by adults, and maybe I could handle it now...but I'm not really inclined to pick it up again.
Another one I read was a short story about some guy going to a school his family had been going to for years, where the guy got thrown out for cheating on a test, which, near as I could tell, he didn't do. Couldn't make heads or tails of the story.
(Not everything I read for school depressed me. Some stayed with me, so to speak. There's this one, where this man comes to a small town and organizes a giant band with the children as memebers, selling instruments and uniforms and sheet music...only he's a con man and it's all a fraud...yes, I know it's the plot of "The Music Man," but which came first, the movie or the story?...besides, the story had a different ending, the con man getting clean away with it. I've been trying to track it down for a couple years now, without luck.)
posted
The depression factor has led me not to read Russian literature. I don't get anything back from reading about a person who self-destructs.
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posted
Our Slavic style literature and way of life is the reason why my country is considered an Eastern-European. Even though Austria is further east than us.
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posted
Thanks for all of the feedback, I enjoyed reading all of your comments! Just to adress one of the main comments, the books I read did indeed have a message, which i try to emulate or at very least immitate.. The writer i referred to specifically, though this applies to so many other writers, is creating a likeable protagonist who experiences some rough things. Hell, Ender's Game is a prime example of what I'm talking about. Once I finished the novel I was absolutely craving any extension of the story that I ate up every ounce of fan-fiction because I NEEDED Ender to be happy.
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posted
As far as I'm concerned, Ender's Game does have a happy ending. It ends with hope that he might make amends one day. Beats most of what I had to read in high school.
And if you want to read more about Ender, why go read fan fiction? There are three more books about Ender (those were depressing to me, mind you).
quote:Life's a bitch, and then you die.....horribly?
Isn't that a great message to send to the ambitious youths? It's a miracle we managed to survive to the present.
[This message has been edited by MartinV (edited August 12, 2011).]
posted
There are endings that are about redemption that some readers may take as depressing. My first WotF story ended like that.
I left my protagonist in a terrible fix but with hope that everything will turn out fine. He understood why he was in the fix he ended up in and that all he had to do was endure and learn from the experience for him to return to a normal life... a life for the better.
Stories of this type suit me just fine... as long as I can clearly understand why the story ended on such a note. The reason I ended my story like I did was because I have notes to expand it into a novel. To tell what happens during the time my protagonist has to endure his predicament and then gets turned back to normal and is better for the experience.
The lesson of a redemption story is life isn't always fair and not all stories are tied up with a bright pretty ribbon at the end. But there is hope that all will be well.
posted
With fiction, I'd always rather read stories that have some kind of positive or hopeful resolution. There are enough depressing endings in real life.
Posts: 150 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:There are enough depressing endings in real life.
This is why I write stories that are not popular in my country. It is also the reason why I write in English and intend to publish it abroad. I'm basically a maverick for wanting to write non-depressing stories. Ain't life grand?
[This message has been edited by MartinV (edited August 12, 2011).]
posted
I can't recall, now, why I didn't like the original "Ender's Game" story when it was published in Analog all those years ago...only that I didn't like it...which is all the more odd because, in that same era, I was crazy about nearly every other story by Card I could lay my hands on, digging through old back issues and anthologies to find them.
Perhaps I should try it again---I read it at least twice---and, I've found that, with increased age and knowledge and (maybe) understanding, a lot of works that were opaque to me as a teenager are crystal-clear now.
posted
The first fiction I ever wrote was described as "morbid" by everyone who read it. It also won a citywide short-story contest. Clearly there's an audience.
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. Though i think I understand what you're getting at. I think there's a fine line between an author just bitching about their upbringing, and an author who has just seen past the curtain and seen what goes on backstage. Maybe it's just a matter of some people being able to disguise their whining better.
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