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walexander
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this is a continuation of random musings thread.

Now a curious problem has arisen about dialog tags and the use of adverbs and past tense verbs in the tag.

The predominant thinking is to drop or sparingly use such devices. Or go the way of Hemingway/Stein and try and eliminate tags altogether.

But this conversation got me to thinking, mainly because I added a rant about JK Rowling in a previous post. I went back and did a survey of her work and what did I find!!!!

The overwhelming use of adverbs and PT Verbs in her tags and comma use in her dialogs punctuating into a descriptive phrase.

She breaks every rule, not just a little, but all over the place.

I realized I had seen this one other time -- In Anne of green gables. I realized then a part of what makes The HP series so popular. It is not only shaped to read to oneself but is ideal to read aloud to children. The added adverbs give parents clues of how they should read it aloud. Words like snorted, bellowed, growled, whispered, deliver direction to the reader. Most of her dialog comes with direction.

I went back and looked at other popular YA authors and didn't find this overuse. It was almost as if Rowling was never edited. Not hard now to see why most publishers passed on her. Thinking she was an amateur and there was too much editing needed. How ironic.

I think this might be an important note for YA/middle-grade writers. Also to editors who pass to quickly on rule breaking.

This doesn't help me, but I thought I would bring it up to share with the forum.

W.

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Robert Nowall
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Well, any writing rule you can come up with, some successful work can be found that's a violation of it.

(And I doubt Rowling received much editing after the first couple of books---success on that level means they let the writer do whatever she feels like.)

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extrinsic
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The only rule of prose writing is the self-imposed rule. External rule impositions result in stilted expression and reading. Rowling's mannerisms emulate folk tales' mannerisms, especially fables.

The degree of the Potter franchise's Said-bookisms and Tom Swifties' (see the "Turkey City Lexicon") memorableness of overly direction-amended discourse attribution, or not memorable to any degree, speaks to how deft writer and target audience reader are, and reader tolerance, for those. For me, they're overwrought and detract from the reading effect. Nonetheless, I read through the saga.

Rowling could have instead used description, sensation, and action attribution methods, or a more ample quantity of those methods. The word count would have increased by at least a tenth if so. However, she emulates traditional and time-honored folk tale mannerisms from oral traditions that suit the subject matter and the target audience's sensibilities.

Hemingway let down his minimalist methods at times, to my distraction for their abrupt out-of-place contrast with his standard mien. Gertrude Stein's excess use of present progressive tense likewise wears. William Gibson's does, too. Consistent, though, and for rhetorical purpose, unlike Hemingway's inconsistent occasion. Stein and Gibson's purpose are for an ever-present present-time now-moment sensibility.

Neither's excess -ing uses are necessary, mere craft shortfalls of underappreciation for prose's simple past tense's immediate just-this-now-moment-happened metaphoric substitution for present tenses. Plus, the value of Impressionism's subjectiveness central to their works all but demands present progressive as an auxiliary of simple present. Prose's simple-past metaphor could be too objective for their designs.

A creator's aesthetic slant suggests self-imposed rules for narrative point of view criteria, grammatical person and tense at the least, maybe narrator attribution methods or minimalisms thereof. Besides, if prose was all of one rigid narrative point of view, the dreary sameness would wear interminably.

The final, if not sole question is, does whatever mien and method work for the target audience and creator's intent? Rowling also wrote for hopeful motion picture interpretation of the Potter saga, so, of course, dialogue attribution tags that stage-direct persona dramatic action and reaction are essential. She deliberately "Filmed it," (see "Being a Glossary of Terms Useful in Critiquing Science Fiction"). Reads more like film scripts to me, for the elaborate dialogue attribution amendments, than intentional prose, a difference with and worth a distinction from traditional folk tale oral narrative customs.

Effect dilution problems arise for writers who derivatively imitate mannerisms and methods of others' works without full appreciation of their oftentimes subtle dramatic functions. A satisfaction, or solution or treatment, succeeds when writers self-impose principle-based, consistent rules necessary for desired and intended effects that suit a work. This matter is about rhetoric's decorum principle: suit words and actions to the subject matter at hand, and each to the other, and to the occasion (kairos), and the audience.

[ February 06, 2018, 06:14 PM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]

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Sassy505
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should I change past tense words such as was, were and to a present tense? Am I reading this right?
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extrinsic
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For consistent tense use, if a narrative's main tense is simple present, for its subjective strength functions, yes, change was, were, etc., to present tense. At least non-discourse portions. Inconsistent tense is a part of stream-of-consciousness discourse: speech and thought.

On the other hand, if the main tense is simple past, change present tense am, is and are, etc., to simple past.

On another hand, any to be verbs and to have and to get derivatives invariably entail static voice expression; that is, the stasis static of state of being statements. This is static voice, has had been, had been, had been going to be, was, was going to be, is, is going to be ongoing, shall be, will be, will be going, would be going to be, always would be static state of being expression. Prose asks for a greater weight of dynamic voice to static voice, like for effective passive voice weighted less to active voice emphasis. Dynamic voice entails dramatic process statement expression. Example: Static voice speed bumps, stalls, stops, reverses, even crashes dramatic movement.

First person is subjective by default.
Prose's second person reflexive, a metaphor for first person, is subjective by default.
Third person is objective by default.
Simple present is subjective by default.
Simple past is objective by default.
Indicative mood is objective by default.
Imperative mood is either or both objective and subjective by default.
Subjunctive mood is subjective by default.
(Grammatical mood is another narrative point of view facet. Indicative is the more common prose grammatical mood. Also, unreliable narrators are subjective by default even if presented in an otherwise objective narrative point of view.)

First person, future present is the most subjective narrative point of view, the subjunctive grammatical mood. Third person, simple past, indicative is the most objective narrative point of view. Does a weighted proportion of objective to subjective expression suit a given narrative's intents? A best practice to ask that question at some point in a narrative's development. At the least, first person, simple present, in proficient writer hands, affords closest narrative distance by default.

However, prose's indicative mood, simple past, third person limited is a metaphor for indicative, simple present, first person, as close a narrative distance as the latter, if not, curiously, closer, in proficient writer hands, is the most flexible narrative point of view, and affords subtle objective-subjective variant distinctions other narrative points of view do not afford as much.

Consistence, even in inconsistence, is paramount. Readers will come around to much deviation from expected norms if given consistent, easily accessible content and intent, and sufficient dramatic impetus to stay a narrative's course.

[ February 08, 2018, 10:15 PM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]

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walexander
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quote:
Rowling also wrote for hopeful motion picture interpretation of the Potter saga, so, of course, dialogue attribution tags that stage-direct persona dramatic action and reaction are essential
I don't believe this to be true E. No way Rowling on book one was using bad grammar just because she was thinking about a future movie deal.

I do now believe her grammar was key to the first twelve publishers passing on HP.

I was just pointing out the irony of the top selling books of all time completely breaking the grammar rules. Something I hadn't noticed till now.

Like I said it doesn't affect my writing but it's worth noting. Makes you wonder what would have happened if HP 1 would have gone through a full edit.

W.

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extrinsic
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The grammar's not bad-bad. The several grammar principle areas on point are deprecated by many consensuses, not all, not across time and space. The Potter saga overall did surpass some total sales records for the whole cycle, though not individual sales records.

Charles Dickens' A Tale of Two Cities' two hundred million copy sales surpasses Potter first installment's one hundred twenty million copies sold, roughly sixty-five million per subsequent title, five hundred million copies overall so far. And the Two Cities start's "It was . . ." repetition contravenes several no-no-never grammar and craft principles. J.R.R. Tolkien's The Hobbit's one hundred million and one hundred fifty million copies for the One Ring cycle. Miguel Cervantes' Don Quixote tops the charts at an astonishing five hundred million copies for the one novel.

If it were given to me to be Rowling's editor, I'd have asked about the elaborate attribution amendments, if I hadn't interpreted their rhetorical functions first off, maybe asked her if fewer might be more appealing and effective and what other methods could she consider. Those rhetorical intent facets were apparent to me due to extensive folklore, folk tale, fairy tale, fable, nursery rhyme, etc., and stage and screen script encounters and study.

And wow, for really elaborate attribution amendments, Gustave Flaubert's Madam Bovary and Laurence Sterne's The Life and Opinions of Tristram Shandy, Gentleman. Might as well include William Makepeace Thackeray's Vanity Fair for overwrought discourse attributions. Then there's Henry James' The Turn of the Screw. Guess which one of the above uses the much dreaded said-bookism "ejaculated" nine times? For what little it's worth, I've read all the above and many, many more.

A close forensic analysis of Rowling's mannerisms evinces a determined intent to write more script-like and for folk tale emulation than by the prevailing consensuses of present-day modernist prose program and composition instruction exhortations. Yep, the first eight publishers declined Potter because they were not the target audience. Took an eight-year-old girl, Alice, the daughter of Bloomsbury chairperson Nigel Newton, to weigh the first sample installment's merits and appeals and demand more.

[ February 08, 2018, 03:33 AM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]

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Meredith
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quote:
Originally posted by Sassy505:
should I change past tense words such as was, were and to a present tense? Am I reading this right?

No, I don't think that's what was being said here. I think Walexander was more referring to use of verbs other than said, asked, answered, replied, etc. The sort of verbs we're usually discouraged from using as dialog tags because people don't normally, for example, snort dialog. They can, however, snort and then speak, which is not a dialog tag in the purest sense. But, again something that probably ought to be used in moderation. Less is more with dialog tags as the focus should be on the dialog, not the tag.
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walexander
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quote:
Guess which one of the above uses the much dreaded said-bookism "ejaculated" nine times?
Funny E. You crack me up sometimes. [Smile]

Exactly M. You hit the nail on the head.

W.

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extrinsic
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Painful to read such an affected said-bookism, very much more painful than Rowling's old school and time honored stage direction attributions. No guess which novel the tag "ejaculated" is in nine times?

How about some tips learned from those professionals' dialogue theories. Do any of those speak about echo, non sequitur, or squabble, or other dialogue types? Stream of consciousness, or pressure of thought or speech? How about attribution tag formats and placements? Other methods? Differences and similarities between untagged and tagged and direct and indirect discourse and speech and thought?

[ February 08, 2018, 10:17 PM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]

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Jack Albany
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Depending on the narrative distance, my dialogue tags are used in inverse ratio. I refrain from using adverbial tags though since I first tried to 'snort' a reply.

As for Rowling's sudden acceptance by a publisher, right story at the right time is my guess.

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extrinsic
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And right reader, right screener. An eight-year-old child sent a $25 billion franchise forward!?

[ February 08, 2018, 04:22 AM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]

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Jack Albany
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And let's not forget Stanley Unwin's son, aged eight when he gave The Hobbit a good review for his father. Is it the screener or the right story for its time which launches a million sales?
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extrinsic
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A screener who recognizes the right story for its time, place, situation, occasion, and audience -- audience most.

Buzzfeed, "20 Brilliant Authors Whose Work Was Initially Rejected"

The article does claim the Potter novel was rejected twelve times; however, the anecdote is more complex than that. The Bloomsbury submission was after the eighth decline, and decline pendent, meantime, received four more declines.

The article claims Robert M. Pirsig's Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance was rejected one hundred twenty-one times.

[ February 08, 2018, 06:46 AM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]

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Jack Albany
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Nevertheless, The children shall lead the way.
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Robert Nowall
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I think Rayner Unwin's father already liked "The Hobbit," but wanted a kid's opinion on a kid's book.

Re: on eliminating "was, were" and such...I've been trying that sort of thing for some years, using my computer to track them down and then rewriting to remove them. (Along with "ly" adverbs and "has / had / have.) I'm starting to think I'm overdoing it...but I also think making the effort makes me think about what I'm putting down on the computer screen.

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Tiergan
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You can't get too rule bound though either, or you just might forget to tell a good story.
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extrinsic
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C.J. Cherryh famously said Follow no rule off a cliff, includes self-imposed rules, plus, that's not a valid justification for rule contravention on its face. A rule, principle, actually, self-imposed in particular, best practice entails a rhetorical rationale for contravention.

Noted above, Gertrude Stein and William Gibson use present progressive for an ever-present present-time now-moment sense, for immediacy and for progressive's indeterminate completion sense, the opposite of perfect tenses' completion senses. Likewise, static voice's to be verbs could be for deliberate stasis state of being expression, perhaps to subtly show a persona is stuck in a figurative bathtub. Tense sequence could progress from simple present static voice at a start and, after an incitement incident, a transition to simple past dynamic voice through to an end, from stuck, probably victimized and powerless, to proactive and capable, and to a complication satisfaction outcome. Challenge there is a static voice start might or might not be dramatic verbalization and, therefore, not timely engage readers.

Likewise, -ly adverbs could be part of a persona's expression idiolect, for judicious emphasis' sake, even otherwise emotionally empty adverbs. The widespread misuse of the word literally that subtly shows an excited-speech personality (rhetorical rationale), for example, dialogue: "Mater literally broke the shade tree," Henry said. Problem with that is no cue that that is indeed a deliberate stream-of-consciousness expression, too grammatically literal, literally. Parenthetical commentary adverbs best practice are set off with punctuation separation.

"Literally," in its most denotative sense, in some way refers to a literary facet. Connotative uses, though, mean actually, really, or, once upon a time before virtual reality, virtually. Don't get me started on misuse of ironically.

Set off to signal intensity of expression, dialogue: "Mater broke the shade tree, literally," Henry said. Or stronger signal, dash separation, "Mater broke the shade tree -- literally," Henry said. Or different attribution placement for stronger emphasis, "Mater broke the shade tree," Henry said, "literally." Or, "Literally," Henry said, "Mater broke the shade tree." Or phonetic and italics, for intonation signal, in case of missed signal risk, irrespective of punctuation signals, for strongest emphasis, gimicky, maybe, "Mater broke," Henry said, "lit-er-all-lee, the shade tree." (Italics use for interjection emphasis is an optional fantastic fiction convention, especially for onomatopoeia, often accompanied by an as-well italics exclamation mark. Bang!)

Prose grammar, not formal grammar, adverbs and adverbial phrases are syntax independent, conjunctive adverbs, too, can go most anywhere in a sentence and even be for a one-word sentence fragment, an interjection part of speech expression. Like all emphasis, though, judicious, timely, sensible, rational uses are crucial.

[ February 10, 2018, 03:26 AM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]

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Robert Nowall
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Re: extrinsic's link to "20 Brilliant Authors Whose Work Was Initially Rejected": if I recall right, most of Frank Herbert's "Dune" had already been published in "Analog" by then. (I never could figure out how the publisher, Chilton, was persuaded to publish---they usually published auto manuals and indexes and such.)
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extrinsic
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The Dune Chilton edition anecdote's apocrypha comes from inclusion of Chilton trademark-type diagrams that show how to change an ornithopter's crankcase oil.
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Sassy505
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okay, I didn't get any real help on dialogue tags other than Row lings can do what she wants.

Glossary for Sci-Fi- Just delete the items that do not pertain to you and add the ting that will to your genre. It's a great start for your own little critique diary/journal. You can get help there from your editor. ask for an in house cursory editing file or tips.

I'm really disappointed in this subject matter. I want to know, do we capitalize the dialogue tag or not.

he said with a grin.

He said with a grin.

Which one is correct?

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Lynne Clark
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Generally, dialogue tags are not capitalized, and the dialogue itself will end with a comma. If it is action tag i.e. He grinned--and, in fact, you don't need to say 'he said' if you are having him grinning. An action tag is always better--is capitalized and the dialogue will end with a full stop. I found this link explained it in nice, simple English, and I keep it open on a tab whenever I am writing as I can NEVER remember.

http://theeditorsblog.net/2010/12/08/punctuation-in-dialogue/

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Meredith
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"Let's," he said with a grin.
Or
He grinned. "Let's."

For a fuller understanding, I recommend:
Browne and King, SELF-EDITING FOR FICTION WRITERS

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extrinsic
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Dialogue, speech, and thought attribution, syntax, punctuation, and capitalization differ from situation to situation and narrative to narrative. Examples to follow below.

The first division is whether direct or indirect discourse. Direct is verbatim citation, exactly what is said or thought, irrespective of if fictional. Indirect is paraphrased content, abbreviated expression, summarized. The second division is speech (dialogue, conversation, monologue) and thought.

Indirect discourse never takes quote marks for the speech and never italics or other indication for thought. Direct discourse usually takes quote marks for speech, other methods apply and discretionary omissions occur: Cormac McCarthy and Brad Land don't use quote marks to bracket direct speech. Fantasy genre discretion may use italics to mark direct thought.

Another division is tagged and untagged discourse. Tagged is of the she said, he thought variety. Untagged uses subtle verbal signals to distinguish speech and thought attribution. Modernist theory suggests that attribution tags should be used sparingly and timely, use action attribution instead, as those tags are invariably narrator tell; however, also noted as near invisible when necessary. Rowling's uses of attribution amendments excepted, as those are a long-standing and time-honored tradition of discourse attribution pre-modernist thought.

Examples with basic amendments, "Got you," he said with a grin. Or, "Got you," he said, slyly grinning. Or, Slyly grinning, he said, "Got you." Standard grammar, capitalization, and punctuation principles apply to tag content amendments. I care for none of those examples, unnecessary -ly and -ing words, and favor the modernist approaches, which prefer stronger and more robust action non-tags to tags and few, if any, attribution amendments, sole use of she said and he thought tags as needed otherwise and as well. A grin sneered across his lips. "Got you," he said.

A next division is attribution placement syntax. Sentences divide into three basic types: simple, complex, and compound, plus, whether or not a simple sentence includes an object, and variants of complex and compound, and the long sentence types loose and periodic. Clauses and sentences divide into the basic positions: subject, predicate, and object. Brief sentence discourse attribution may precede or follow the discourse, follow preferred. The direct discourse example, "Got you," he said. Or, Got you, she thought. Indirect discourse favors preceding tags. He said I got you. She thought I got you.

Longer sentences or clauses locate tags medially, after a natural syntax break, often a verb-predicate. "Got you," he said, "under my thumb." After verb "Got" doesn't usually work in that example. ("Got," he said, "you under my thumb.") Though that might work for emphasis purposes. Likewise, after a proper noun in direct address, uttered as an interjection, or an interjection itself, a name, for example, "Mike," he said, "got you under my thumb."

A next division is "action" or tag attribution. The action type is the untagged type above. An action attribution signals who then speaks or thinks and next acts, if so. The tagged type is, again, of the he said, she thought, or name instead of pronoun variant. The several variants' labels are free, tagged, indirect, direct, speech, and thought; examples, free direct speech (FDS) -- untagged, verbatim speech; free indirect thought (FIT), untagged, paraphrased thought. F or T, D or I, and S or T, six variables that amount to eight possible types, plus numerous attribution method and placement variables. A favorite of modernist prose is free indirect discourse, FID: untagged, paraphrased thought and speech.

An untagged attribution and tag amendment subdivision distinguishes narrative modes: description, introspection, action, narration, emotion, sensation, summarization, exposition, conversation, recollection, explanation, and transition.

Now outdated though still in use, a tag type switches syntax from verb-subject to subject-verb sequence for poetic or classic period effect or for judicious variety: "Got you," said he, Got you, thought she, "Got you," said Kyle.

Also, present tense, main tense, attribution uses present tense tags, "Got you," she says. Got you, he thinks. However, present tense attributions are more visible than past tense ones, a consideration that might inform tense selection.

Several of formal composition source citation and attribution methods also might be used for prose; generally, those follow prose's or, actually, proses' follow formal composition's. One not much used for prose is block quotes, except for False Document motifs.

Basic examples:

"Got you," he said.
Got you, she thought.
"What did you get?" he said.
A grin sneered across his lips. "Got you," Mark said. He picked up the sword, wondered if he could kill Larry.
Mark picked up the sword. "Got you now, Mike." A grin sneered across his lips.
Mark picked up the sword. Now he's got you. A grin sneered across his lips.

First, second, or third person and singular or plural subject are also considerations for narrative point of view selection and how discourse attribution works to best effect.

For more in-depth examples and a wide host of variants, study published works for how other writers format discourse -- dialogue -- speech and thought, and related action, emotion, sensation, description, etc., and their attribution methods and locations, plus, how placement and action context wrap informs dramatic movement and emphasis. Also, define one's own attribution methods and principles, mindful to be consistent.

A model narrative that contains the gamut of modernist and traditionalist methods, a primary grades novel: The Velveteen Rabbit, Margery Williams, 1922, Project Gutenberg, selected because it contains the gamut and more so because it is public domain, hence, no posted quantity limitation, and is accessible free online. And due to observation that the narrative contains the stronger appeal aesthetics of poetic equipment common to adult literature and so-labeled "literary fiction," moral contest and other subtext included, even if the target audience is grammar school ages, second grade precocious readers, fourth grade reader standards.

Excerpts;

"'What is REAL?'" asked the Rabbit one day, when they were lying side by side near the nursery fender, before Nana came to tidy the room. 'Does it mean having things that buzz inside you and a stick-out handle?'

"'Real isn't how you are made,' said the Skin Horse. 'It's a thing that happens to you. When a child loves you for a long, long time, not just to play with, but REALLY loves you, then you become Real.'"

. . .

"'The Boy's Uncle made me Real,' he said. 'That was a great many years ago; but once you are Real you can't become unreal again. It lasts for always.'"

. . .

"'Here,' she said, 'take your old Bunny! He'll do to sleep with you!' And she dragged the Rabbit out by one ear, and put him into the Boy's arms.

"That night, and for many nights after, the Velveteen Rabbit slept in the Boy's bed. At first he found it rather uncomfortable, for the Boy hugged him very tight, and sometimes he rolled over on him, and sometimes he pushed him so far under the pillow that the Rabbit could scarcely breathe. And he missed, too, those long moonlight hours in the nursery, when all the house was silent, and his talks with the Skin Horse. But very soon he grew to like it, for the Boy used to talk to him, and made nice tunnels for him under the bedclothes that he said were like the burrows the real rabbits lived in. And they had splendid games together, in whispers, when Nana had gone away to her supper and left the night-light burning on the mantelpiece. And when the Boy dropped off to sleep, the Rabbit would snuggle down close under his little warm chin and dream, with the Boy's hands clasped close round him all night long."

[ February 13, 2018, 09:42 PM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]

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Tiergan
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quote:
Originally posted by Meredith:

For a fuller understanding, I recommend:
Browne and King, SELF-EDITING FOR FICTION WRITERS

This. I can not recommend this enough. The book is brutal, but truthful. Does it mean every NY Times Bestselling book follows these rules? Gods no. Not even close. But, if read, and put to use, you will become a better writer.
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Jack Albany
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Seconded!
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extrinsic
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The King of the duo is Dave King of "Decoding Narrative Distance." And a related essay by the Renni Browne, Dave King duo hosted at The Internet Writing Journal, "Self-Editing For Fiction Writers: Show and Tell." If a review of those might persuade that the above recommended book is worth acquisition.

[ February 17, 2018, 05:50 PM: Message edited by: extrinsic ]

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walexander
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That's a great article on narrative distance E. Well worth the read. I highly suggest it to everyone.

Thanks again E. for sharing.

W.

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