For Robert: Nearly everything that happens in the universe is beyond my understanding. That doesn't mean that its not knowable, however. I think one of the best things a scientist can say is, "I don't know yet," admitting where her knowledge is weak and implying that the knowledge is knowable. I wonder if you mean 'beyond my understanding, for now' or 'beyond understanding forever by it's nature'? Is faith its-self an unknowable thing?

Faith is like it's described in the Bible. That you have to have faith like a small child has that absolutely nothing will go wrong that Mom and Dad can't fix no matter what. Everything will be fine. A child in this situation has no worries about something going wrong. They know 100% that they are safe in the protection of their parents.

Faith is having absolutely no doubts about something. You know it's so and it always will be. Faith is knowing you can trust someone not to harm you intentionally... ever.

Let's go back to the light bulb example. You may trust the light will turn on when you flip the light switch, but in the back of your mind you know that bulb won't last forever, that it will burn out eventually. So you'll have that nagging doubt that this time might just be the time it won't come on. Your faith that it will is just not there. But if you had a light bulb that would last forever, you would have full faith that light would come on ever time. And there's where the difference lies.

Faith is belief in things that there is no evidence for. Everyone has faith in something even if they don't believe in God or anything supernatural.

You have faith in yourself that you can accomplish something you've never done before (thus a lack of evidence).

Faith in the people you love or even people that you don't know that they won't punch you in the face or harm you.

Faith in the future, government, country, hummanity, etc.

I have faith that I will someday publish even though the odds are stacked against me.

Kinda of like what is Love?

I think part of it is faith in what? In fellow man, in God, or natural energy. Trust is part of it but faith in each of those would be described differently I think.

So what I'm hearing from you all (with the exception of LD) is that faith is belief without understanding, reason, or evidence. Its some kind of 100% guarantee that everything will be fine. I'm troubled by the parent/child analogy because while a child may think that their parents have the power to make everything ok, the parent probably doesn't see it that way. The parent probably has a firmer grip on reality, in that case.

Would people agree, then, that faith is another word for naivete? I'm not sure I'm comfortable with that definition because so many dear friends are deeply faithy and I don't think they're especially naive.

The secularist might make the argument that faith is something we make up to make us feel better about the unknown. Is faith the Spackle that fills the gaps in our knowledge? I hope that's not the answer, because people who can't just say, "I don't know," are one of my peeves. While I agree that some people use faith to fill that role, I think it's a little bit reductionist to say that's all that faith is.

I am not naive in my faith in God. God is real. He gave me life and the world I live in. I also have faith in the reality of the Devil and the ongoing struggle between God and Satan. Someone who doesn't believe in such things may call that being naive, but I don't see it as such. It's as real as breathing, as knowing I have an immortal soul. I know where my priorities lie in this respect and am not naive in any sense of the word.

Faith isn't there to "fill in the gaps". Life fills in the gaps. Faith is all. It's life and what comes after. It gets me through every day of my life. I can't imagine living without faith.

And yes, faith is one of the hardest things to define. You can't package it into an one single definition. It's scope is way too broad a subject for that. I know I have faith. Faith in God? Yes! Faith in my closest friends? Until they prove me otherwise, and I've had some of my friends for decades. And that you can take to the bank.

Now if you look in a general purpose lexicon, Πίστις is translated by scholars at least seven different ways (in order of frequency):

(1) "fidelity"
(2) "faith"
(3) "pledge"
(4) "proof"
(5) "confidence"
(6) "assurance"
(7) "belief"

It's very interesting to see how this kind of metonymic connection between "trustworthiness", "having confidence in" and "belief" is preserved from the Greek "Πίστις" to the Latin "fides" to the English word "faith". This is due in part no doubt to the influence of theology; but this connection exists in Greek in pre-Christian times "Πίστις" being the proper name of the goddess personification of trustworthiness, and used in the writings of Plato and Aristotle respectively to mean "belief" and "confidence in a proposition".

I think that theology may be inclined to discount other common senses of the word in its understandable focus on doctrine.

There is a poem by the great Heian poet Hitomaro (d. 720 CE) which he wrote on the occasion of his wife's death. In it he writes of the days when he was secretly courting her and the difficulties he had to overcome, and without mentioning it he captures wonderfully what faith feels like:

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Yet I always trusted
the way would be clear,
though endless as the wild vine,
at last to meet my dear,
like a hopeful sailor
trusting on his tall ship.

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Would people agree, then, that faith is another word for naivete?

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Again I would say it depends on what type of faith. Some faith is naivete no doubt about it... at least according to my way of thinking, but not all is. Some of it comes from a very strong personal belief and is based on past experiences. Using Christianity as an example since that is what I know... Even though we can't see everything yet there are reasons for belief in Jesus. In one way that faith is based on words- from the Bible mostly but also from what other people say they have experienced- not what we see, smell or taste, or feel. But as I said on another hand there reasons to belief.

I'm not sure if I got across everything I wanted to. I know what I mean but getting the right words out isn't always easy. Like writing a story.

But you can read the whole chapter of Hebrews Eleven. It deals with faith and how various people dealt with it. If you don't have a Bible there are places on the internet where you can read it.

There's was something I forgot so I came back:

Crystal I hope you don't mind me using what you said,

But I in her case with her mother I wouldn't be surprised if there was a reason for her faith in her mother. Some may think it was just ignorance and/or naivete but as I said I think there was past experience that helped her faith. But at the same time faith can change as we get older and there's a reason, when it comes to faith, Jesus said we have to become like children.

And I add:
I repeat, what she said about Hebrew Eleven One not having a deep meaning. Much of the Bible is like that, as an example John 3:16- you may have heard or read sometime- is very to the point and concise, easy to understand; especially when you see it in context, Seventeen is just the same. There can be a deeper meaning in many areas of the Bible but it's related to the surface meaning that is out there for all to see.

Faith is the evidence of things not seen. I know there's ice at the Polar cap. I trust the people who have been there and the pictures I've seen but I haven't been there, I haven't see it nor felt the cold in person, haven't even flown over it. I have faith it's there. So you might say that one type of faith is knowing something or someone is there.

To me, there is a distinction between belief about something/someone, and faith in something/someone. And that difference is evidenced in the action of the person that grasps that faith.

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So what I'm hearing from you all (with the exception of LD) is that faith is belief without understanding, reason, or evidence.

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It is not the opposite of reason, nor is it mutually exclusive to evidence. It just doesn't necessarily require evidence before an action is taken. In the case of the lightbulb, the evidence was there by the many times previous that it did work. In that example, you could say that faith was established by reason, and acting on the small possibility that this time it would be failure was a position of faith.

It is interesting in the tightrope story that the evidence for both positions (for belief about and belief in) was available to the onlookers. I hit this issue time and again in my career (science) where the exact opposite is preached by most, i.e. that nothing is true unless proven. Ironically, scientific method itself has a step akin to faith (hypothesis) and most of my colleagues do have a faith of sorts (usually around the meaning of science towards their life and viewpoint).

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Would people agree, then, that faith is another word for naivete?

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I don't think so. Naivete implies a lack of knowledge. Faith can be independent of knowledge. It can be linked to knowledge. More typically for its use, it can come before knowledge, with knowledge being obtained as a result of the actions taken in/by faith. If the actions resulted in a backflip or a major correction, then the faith may have been unfounded. However, perhaps even more often, the actions lead to evidence that the (reason for) faith was correct, and it was the skepticism that was unfounded (or perhaps, confounded )

In the meantime, my aunt has the following quote as her status on fb, which I think echos some of what you're telling me.

"I have learned that faith means trusting in advance what will only make sense in reverse." Philip Yancey

The internet tells me that Philip Yancey is a Christian author, but I've not read his books.

In isolation, this quote makes me think of what it was like to learn chemistry when I was in high school. I completely set myself up to flunk that class, because I couldn't get a grip on anything my teacher was saying. It all seemed like inexplicable magic to me. I spent the entire class angry because I was convinced that he was lying to us. Turns out, he was lying to us. Electrons do not exist in round orbitals like little planets going around the sun. There're all kinds of analogies that a chemistry teacher uses to allow students to learn chemistry. The problem that I had with him was actually a pedagogical problem, not a chemistry problem. I was furious that he expected me to learn about bonds without first explaining about quantum chemistry. Anyhow I did get over it, and he made a deal with me: ace the final and I'll pass you. I passed, but that's another story. If I could have suspended my disbelief and had faith that what my teacher was telling me was true, I would have had a much easier time passing chemistry. That is to say, if I could have "trusted in advance," then chemistry might have, "made sense in reverse."

Chemistry is still quite mysterious, and the answers that I wanted as a student still aren't well-understood. What is the nature of an electron? Its mysterious, no? Can we understand bonding without understanding the nature of an electron? Yeah, we can, at least well enough to use chemistry day-to-day. Then again, a geocentric model of the universe is also good enough for day-to-day applications.

Please don't misunderstand, I'm not trying to "logic" anyone out of their faith. I'm not posting this to make converts. Destroying faith is a horribly violent act that I don't ever want to be guilty of. That being understood, the following question is not rhetorical. I'm hoping for an honest answer or a simple 'I don't know.' I'm not trying to be inflammatory.

I think faith can be very harmful simply because it's so easy to abuse, especially when a person doesn't exercise his own capacity for reasoned thought. Horrible things have been done in the name of god. People have willingly suffered under evil men lulled into inactivity by promises that it's god's will, or that no matter how bad this life may be, the next will be better.

On a bit of a sidetrack. I'm not saying that there isn't a heaven, but hope in a better life doesn't give a person the right to sit around and let this one be terrible. People who say "well, those who do wicked in this life will have their just reward in the afterlife" and do nothing to change anything are at best cowards, at worst contributing to the misery in the world by tacitly supporting it.

If we hope for a heaven, we should do our best to make earth that way as well so we know what we're hoping for. And if we don't, even if we just sit idle and do nothing, maybe we're not as righteous as we pretend to be.

My question to this is: How is this not faith? Science is founded on faith. You have faith that there is an answer to x, y, z. You don't know that answer but you believe that there is an answer, you believe enough to dedicate your life in pursuit of those answers. X, y, and z are not in evidence right now, they are a mystery. Faith is looking for further evidence.

"We don't need faith to tell us that everything will be ok, or that we have the answer, or that Somebody has the answer and so its not worth worrying about."

This is a matter of what you have faith in. Faith itself doesn't say anything. Some people have faith in terrible things, things that say things will definitely not be OK. Faith isn't a 'someone else will fix the problem' thing at all. I have faith in a god who says, in essence, "Everything will be ok." that doesn't change my responsibility to help make things ok one whit.

Let's take a math professor who hands you a test and tells you that every problem has an answer. (Even if that answer is unanswerable.) Your faith that the problems have answers doesn't stop you from working them out. In fact it works the opposite way.

"We don't need faith because living with unknowns and risk is fine and identifying them is helpful."

Again, cut the "don't" and you've got a quote worthy of any prophet. "We need faith because living with unknowns and risk is fine and identifying them is helpful." Without faith the only response to the unknown is paralyzing terror.

We do need to differentiate between Trust and Faith. Because I believe in precision of language. Faith may just be a stronger word for trust, but I think it goes deeper than that. Trust is earned. Faith grows. My lightbulb analogy was too simplistic, that is more trust, and uneasy trust at that. I trust my belt to keep my pants up, but it doesn't seem appropriate to call it faith.

Let's take it back to the answer to x, y, z, you have faith that there is an answer. You have an idea about how to discover that answer. You trust that idea enough to try it out, but if it fails. You have only lost trust in that idea, not your faith that there is an answer.

So, perhaps faith is in large concept things, and trust is in small parts of a larger concept.

Sure faith can be harmful, so can pinecones. Everything can be abused, that doesn't lower it's value.

I agree. Faith in a better life shouldn't make a person sit around and let this one be terrible. It does make it bearable. Having faith that the wicked will be punished in an afterlife should make a faithful person work tooth and nail against wickedness. But at the same time we can't prevent all wickedness in the world. We aren't Axe Cop http://axecop.com/index.php/acask/read/ask_axe_cop_10/ and we don't have the bad guy bomb. But we can sleep at night (again unlike Axe Cop). We know that even without being able to fix everything things will be fixed. We can face grave danger for a worthy cause knowing that this isn't the end. Yes, you can face grave danger for a worthy cause without a faith in an afterlife as well.

First of all, thank you for not be offended. I'm trying to be very careful, because, in my experience, people can get fairly emotional about this topic (which is understandable).

Would you agree that if you believe that anything can be understood and you are willing to pursue understanding, that's a kind of faith? Would you agree that anyone who doesn't fear the unknown is exhibiting faith?

People here seem to agree that we must be specific about what we have faith in. So if the answer to those questions is 'yes' what is this faith in? Can we say it is the faith in the know-ability of all things? That sounds cool, but arrogant. Do you-all have faith that all things are knowable? I don't think I do. I think all things may be knowable so we should never shrug our shoulders and give up. We can't prove that something is not knowable, after all. However, I think is possible that there are unknowable things out there somewhere. So is it still faith if there's this doubt? Can faith contain doubt?

So this also response to the comment about people doing bad things because of faith. People with faith do a whole lot more to help.

Pyre said, "Because nothing has value in a world without faith."

I can understand why you feel this way. I used to feel this way, too. I used to call myself an atheist, but I don't use that word anymore because people understand it differently than I do, which makes communicating difficult. When I took my first steps into a world without God, it was as if all color, beauty, and happiness had left the world. I didn't see the point of it all anymore. It was really horrible and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. But after a while, I got better. I didn't regain my belief, but I felt better. So, as a person without faith, I can assure you that the sun still shines, people still love each other, good is still possible, and the universe is still beautiful. Neither Satanism nor nihilism are the opposite of faith.

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But after a while, I got better. I didn't regain my belief, but I felt better. So, as a person without faith, I can assure you that the sun still shines, people still love each other, good is still possible, and the universe is still beautiful.

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BTW, excellent topic and awesome points and discussion.

kls

-_-

Why didn't you say so in the first place?

My dictionary defines "faith" thus:

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faith...n. [O. Fr. feid, fei (Fr. foi), < L. fides, faith, < fidere, trust.] Confidence or trust in a person or thing, loyalty; fidelty to a person, promise, or commitment; belief not substantiated by proof; spiritual acceptance of truth or realities not certified by reason; belief in God; belief in the doctrines or teachings of a religion.

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Faith is like a rock. You hold on to it and survive through storms of life. Or you can hold on to it until it pulls you too deep underwater to swim out

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Or, you can have faith in you're own abilities to handle that storm, let go of the rock and face what the universe tosses at you.

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KathiS, if there is such a thing as an immortal soul, I think we're soul sisters.

My general observations lead me to think that people are more alike than they are different. Perhaps this is a non-issue. Maybe there's not such a gulf between faithy people and doubty people. Perhaps the divide is all in our committedness to our own labels. That is to say, the more I insist that I am not faithy the more different I'm going to seem to people and the more different I will feel. I am thinking about a mountain with a canyon cut into it. If two people are on opposite canyon rims they think there is a gap between them. If they each investigate the ground they stand on, follow it all the way to the floor of the canyon, they'll discover that they are standing on the same rock after all.

"Would you agree that if you believe that anything can be understood and you are willing to pursue understanding, that's a kind of faith? Would you agree that anyone who doesn't fear the unknown is exhibiting faith?"

So totally. "Willing to pursue" is a particularly useful phrase when talking about faith.

I don't think faith and doubt are mutually exclusive. I think fear is the opposite of faith. And please remember that when I say faith I don't mean faith in God.

The whole "faith without works is dead" could be said a different way, "it's not really faith if you don't do anything about it." Faith is a motivation, if someone is doing the actions of a faith without really believing in it then there must be some other motivation. Perhaps it is a love for people who expect these actions, or a fear of those people. Or perhaps they have something to gain from doing those actions.

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What I want to know is: Do we need faith? What's wrong with saying 'the universe is mysterious, specifically I don't understand x, y, z. Someday, if we keep questioning, we may understand those things. We don't need faith to tell us that everything will be ok, or that we have the answer, or that Somebody has the answer and so its not worth worrying about. We don't need faith because living with unknowns and risk is fine and identifying them is helpful." ?

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Just stumbled upon this thread and find it interesting. Like politics, religion is quick to form battle lines.

@Crane -- what you speak of is an agnostic point of view -- not a doubt that God exists, but that His existence is unknowable. Faith is the bridge between what is known and what is believed to be true, but cannot be proven with evidence.

To answer the question, why do we need faith (I am taking the narrow definition of religious faith, which is often tacitly implied when the word is used)? There are many answers to your question depending on your worldview. Christianity, for example, has a simple answer: faith in Jesus Christ and His work on the cross are required for eternal life:

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For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.

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Box elder bugs, however, are icky. I freak out whenever one lands on my arm, and squash them as quickly as I see them.

They both aren't dangerous, they both are red bugs with black dots on their backs, the only real difference is my perception of them.

Faith is like a red bug with black dots. How you decide to view it changes your perception, and no amount of argument is going to change a person's perception.

I like my faith, my religion. To me, it's a lady bug. Some people see religion as a box elder bug, and I accept that, even though I have evidence to prove it a lady bug.

Faith is evidence.

Faith is having enough evidence to act on a theory.

Like scientists who devout their entire their life studying a scientific theory, or based on that theory.

Faith is that work. Maybe one day people will prove that theory correct, and maybe one day people will disprove that theory.

It doesn't matter really.

Faith is having a life's work. It's worth the effort, even if it doesn't pan out.