Hatrack River Writers Workshop: One opening....two big questions

This is topic One opening....two big questions in forum Fragments and Feedback for Short Works at Hatrack River Writers Workshop.

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Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :

I was wondering if I could get some volunteers to read the opening to my novel. This is not even a complete chapter, in it's about 1200 words.

I face a problem in my universe....there are no humans. The question of where earth is in relation to my story is only relevant by its sheer irrelevance. (Think of, "Your so vain! Your probably think this song is about you...")

So I considered an omniscient narrator to help things along, but I thought that was really smelly cheese, and I wanted a limited third person tale. I tried restricting it so much to my character's point of view that I think it was confusing, and judging but some comments I recently received they do not have a clear view this world. So I put in (what I hope) is a tiny hint of a narrator's voice, stepping in and not so much telling you anything my character doesn't know as elaborating on what he knows and probably saying it in a way he wuoldn't.

So I was hoping for readers to answer 2 questions: What are your impressions of my alien race based on this passage? and Is this more of a mild cheddar cheese or a really stinky parmesian?

Posted by GZ (Member # 1374) on :

I'd be willing to take a look.

Posted by ccwbass (Member # 1850) on :

I'll take a look if you want. I'll understand completely if you don't want, though ; )

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

I could read your prologue (assuming this is what you mean by not-a-complete-chapter-opening-1200-words).

But before you send it, consider two questions would need to be answered in those 1200 words.

First, if there are no humans in the story at all, then why is the story about aliens?

Second, is the POV character chosen as the POV character for reasons of POV?

Okay, that needs a bit of an explanation. I just mean, are you sure that you've chosen the right character to be the POV, and will I tend to agree with you by the end of those 1200 words?

Hmmm, that didn't explain anything at all. But I don't want to spend forever writing an all-encompassing description of why you should or shouldn't choose a given character to be the POV. You'll just have to decide whether the text answers those questions as best you can, and send it to me if you think the answers are in there.

Posted by Gen (Member # 1868) on :

I'd be happy to look at it.

Posted by Kolona (Member # 1438) on :

I'll take a look. Be sure to make the subject line of your email clear or I may delete it inadvertently.

Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :

Oh boy, thanks everyone who responded!

No, Survivor, this is not a prologue. This is actually the opening scene of chapter 1, but a pivotal one because I'm afraid that if I don't establish some things up front the reader will never understand.

And no, it's not *really* about aliens, it's about a race of non humans who would think of us as the aliens, but it is easier to call them that in a brief description of what I am doing.

Yes, the POV character is chosen for a reason, though you will probably not see that by the end of this scene...it really clikcs into play at the end of the chapter.

That's all I'm saying cuz I don't want to influence any opinions more than I probably already have.

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

I should just explain everything in as many words as possible every time I'm thinking something...but the internet would probably explode and my fingers would definitely be severely injured were I to attempt it.

Posted by yanos (Member # 1831) on :

I would be willing to look at it too if you need another opinion

Posted by Gwalchmai (Member # 1807) on :

And unless you think you've got enough readers already, I'm also willing to have a look at it.

Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :

Wow, I'm impresed by the response. I tell you what, I'm going to wait until I get some feedback from thsoe who I've already sent this to, then make some revisions based on their ideas and send it out to my more recent volunteers. That way, I can see how the revisions work. (Can't send them to someone who already read it, after all...makes it difficult to get things right, actually.

)

Posted by punahougirl84 (Member # 1731) on :

Christine, once you've done your revisions and are looking for new readers, you could send it my way too! punahougirl84@yahoo.com

Lee

Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :

I've worked up a revision. Based on the comments I received from the first version, the narrator's overtone was quite cheesy. In fact, I took a complete reversal on the entire project. I decided not to even try to explain. No Narrator's voice, only Hanre's...and some subtle clues that never violate his point of view.

So I'm going to go ahead and send this out to the three additional volunteers with a slightly different angle to my question. What do you understand about these aliens immediately, and is it something you wuold continue reading?

Posted by ccwbass (Member # 1850) on :

I have to admit, Christine, that I'm still a little confused at what you mean by "narrator's voice." Do you mean Omniscient POV, perhaps?

Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :

Good question...what I mean is those things that crop in that are a bit of a stretch to think that the POV character would actually think. You might even call it a pov violation, though I like to think of it as more of a stretch than a violation.

So, for example, in my first sentence (and EVERYONE called me on this) I wrote:

"Hanre beat his enormous birdlike wings rhythmically as he flew through the tall labyrinthine passageways of the underground city."

Well birdlike is rather suspicious. Why would he think of his wings as birdlike? Even if they have birds? We have mammallike hair, but I've never thought of it that way. It's a stretch, something that is really there so that the narrator can explain to a human audience what is going on. I have now changed the openning sentence to:

"Hanre beat his feathered wings rhythmically as he made his way through the labyrinthine passageways of the underground palace he called home."

(the other changes were just matters of how things flowed into my mind at the time...it wasn't a clean edit but a rewrite.) Feathered describes his wings, perhaps not quite as well as "birdlike", but you get a sense of them anyway without a point of view violation (er...stretch). We might say something similiar if we were introducing a human who was running...."His long black legs", for example.

Does that help clarify what I was talking about?

Posted by ccwbass (Member # 1850) on :

Well, I can see where you're coming from, so, yes.

My trouble, and I think I'm unique in this instance, is that when I saw the phrase "narrator's voice," my mind called up images of a recent MST3K treatment of some horrible movie where narration was used in heavy doses because apparently the original sound track disappeared. Thus, I kept expecting to see a deep, disembodied voice-over, which is, of course, impossible since I was reading a story and not watching a bad early 60's monster movie made in the days when bras were pre-stuffed with mortar shells and bikini-clad bottoms shook like jello when girls merely walked slowly and people thought it was sexy. Chicks have come a long way, baby.

Anyways, the confusion is (as always) entirely on my end.

Good lord, I'm one weird duck, ain't I?

[This message has been edited by ccwbass (edited March 08, 2004).]

Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :

It's ok Cowbass, I like you in spite of...no *because* of...the weridness.

Posted by Survivor (Member # 213) on :

Some people are going back to the mortor shells and jello. Fortunately, it doesn't appear to be a general movement.

Going with your previous comparison of, "his feathered wings" and "His long black legs", remember that this comparison is only valid if other members of his species do not have feathers on their wings.

You can refer to the feathers the same way you refer to the wings, that is, when he would actually think about them.

"Hanre beat his wings rhythmically as he made his way through the labyrinthine passageways of the underground palace he called home. "He adjusted his pinion feathers to correct for the slight variations in air currents caused by the various intersecting passages."

See, we know he has feathers on his wings now. Furthermore, Hanre had a plausible reason to think about his feathers, since they are keeping him from crashing into the wall every time he goes past an ajoining passage. And giving him a winged-person-like reason to think of his feathers puts us more deeply into his POV.

Posted by Christine (Member # 1646) on :

Actually, it's also valid if they routinely have contact with alien species that do not have feathers on their wings...This is a race that has had contact with other species for thousands of years, after all.

It is also valid in that older Semnesian lose their feathers, which I suppose would be the same as saying that no, not all Semnesians have feathers.

Also, I don't expect novels to immerse me too deeply in a character's point of view in the first paragraph...I expect a paragraph of lead in. The truth is, Hanre isn't thinking about beating his wings at all, he's just doing it. Keep in mind that in third person limited viewpoint not every sentence, every word, every paragraph is VERY VERY deep...you can dip in and out of a character's head as it suits the tale. In fact, I've noticed that this is one point commonly overlooked on this site. Perhaps I shoudl start a topic about it in the general discussion area...